Richmond is taking down Confederate statues: Is this the end for other Confederate memorials?

[Weezer]

If all Lincoln cared about was preserving the Union he could have done that by not coming out against slavery or walking it back after elected. Lincoln wanted a slave free union.

False. Lincoln was against the spreading of slavery to new territories. He was not for abolishing slavery in existing states. In the Emancipation Proclamation he exempted slave states that had remained loyal to the Union.

 

[Unconditional Surrender]

False. Lincoln was against the spreading of slavery to new territories. He was not for abolishing slavery in existing states. In the Emancipation Proclamation he exempted slave states that had remained loyal to the Union.

What I am saying is that if Lincoln't chief aim were preserving the Union, he could have done that w/o a war the same way his predecessors did. He had principles about slavery that he wasn't willing to negotiate. Those principles started a war, and he didn't renounce them.

 

[midnight orange]

If all Lincoln cared about was preserving the Union he could have done that by not coming out against slavery or walking it back after elected. Lincoln wanted a slave free union.

“I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races. There is a physical difference between the two, which, in my judgment, will probably forever forbid their living together upon the footing of perfect equality. I . . . am in favor of the race to which I belong having the superior position." [p. 11]

“What I would most desire would be the separation of the white and black races." (Springfield, July 17, 1858)

". . . I will to the very last stand by the law of this State, which forbids the marrying of white people with negroes." (Charleston, Illinois, September 18, 1858)

“My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union.”

 

[Weezer]

What I am saying is that if Lincoln't chief aim were preserving the Union, he could have done that w/o a war the same way his predecessors did. He had principles about slavery that he wasn't willing to negotiate. Those principles started a war, and he didn't renounce them.

False again. The majority of southern states seceded before Lincoln even took office, as a reaction to him being elected. Lincoln's own words suggested he had no plans to touch existing slave states, but southern states did not trust him, or the growing abolition movement in the north.

 

[Unconditional Surrender]

He also called them an inferior species.

*race, which is quite different. He wasn't calling them animals. and he made the point that if they were inferior, that that meant they should get charity rather than servitude from whites. Still racism but a very different shade than what was prevalent in the south. What's more, you can't take all of his words at face value. When they contradict (public speeches vs. private thoughts) you have to go with the private thoughts. Lincoln was trying to get the job done. A William Lloyd Garrison or a John Quincey Adams (outspoken abolitionists) could not. He had to be coy.

 

[Unconditional Surrender]

False again. The majority of southern states seceded before Lincoln even took office, as a reaction to him being elected. Lincoln's own words suggested he had no plans to touch existing slave states, but southern states did not trust him, or the growing abolition movement in the north.

What is false exactly? All Lincoln had to say when SC seceded is that I will be James Buchanan part 2. And here is a bill I am proposing to back it up. Problem solved.

“I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races. There is a physical difference between the two, which, in my judgment, will probably forever forbid their living together upon the footing of perfect equality. I . . . am in favor of the race to which I belong having the superior position." [p. 11]

“What I would most desire would be the separation of the white and black races." (Springfield, July 17, 1858)

". . . I will to the very last stand by the law of this State, which forbids the marrying of white people with negroes." (Charleston, Illinois, September 18, 1858)

“My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union.”

Lincoln was trying to get the job done. This was the only acceptable political position at the time. This article paints an accurate portrait:

Abraham Lincoln’s Attitudes on Slavery and Race | American Studies Journal

 

[luthervol]

All of this only highlights why it's so important to understand that it's all on an ever changing continuum.
Everyone is on the racist continuum, that has always been the case and will continue to be the case.
I feel strongly that people should be judged according to their time.
We could have a figure from 1820 who was less racists than 80% of the people of that time, but those same beliefs today might make him more racist than 90% of the people now.
In my view, the person from 1820 who was less racist than 80% of the people then is better than the person today who is more racist than 70% of the people now; even though when comparing their beliefs side by side the beliefs of the person from 1820 seem much more racist.

 

[midnight orange]

What is false exactly? All Lincoln had to say when SC seceded is that I will be James Buchanan part 2. And here is a bill I am proposing to back it up. Problem solved.

l

He did. He supported the Corwin Ammendment. From his 1st inaugural address:

“I understand a proposed amendment to the Constitution--which amendment, however, I have not seen--has passed Congress, to the effect that the Federal Government shall never interfere with the domestic institutions of the States, including that of persons held to service. To avoid misconstruction of what I have said, I depart from my purpose not to speak of particular amendments so far as to say that, holding such a provision to now be implied constitutional law, I have no objection to its being made express and irrevocable.”

 

[MontyPython]

"Donald J. Trump Jr., the president’s son, tweeted on Tuesday that the current push to dismantle and remove statues of confederate leaders could be stopped by an initiative to replace them with effigies of his father.

“Want to save our monuments?” he wrote. “Let’s get a movement going to replace any statue torn down during these riots with a new and more sturdy statue of @realDonaldTrump. The nonsense would stop instantly.”

Jr. is such an arrogant f***. I really don't think he understands how reviled Donald is by many if not most people around the world.

Lemme show ya how that'd go over Mr. Elephant Hunter...

 

[MontyPython]

South Dakota governor on taking down Mount Rushmore: 'Not on my watch'

Statues of former presidents George Washington and Thomas Jefferson have been torn down by protesters or are being removed across the country, raising questions about where that leaves Mount Rushmore, which displays two of those presidents in huge granite in South Dakota's Black Hills.

South Dakota Gov. Kristi Noem has a simple response to those that question whether it will be taken down: "Not on my watch."


The controversial side of Mount Rushmore goes beyond the slave holding pasts of Washington and Jefferson, however.

Native American tribes were given the Black Hills in perpetuity in the Fort Laramie Treaty of 1868. But miners seeking gold came into the area in an expedition led by Gen. George Custer in 1874 and demanded the U.S. Army's protection. The Indian Appropriations Act of 1876 cut off all rations until the Lakota ended hostilities and ceded the Black Hills to the federal government.


Tribes have attempted to reclaim the Black Hills several times in recent decades.

 

[Bigun]

"Donald J. Trump Jr., the president’s son, tweeted on Tuesday that the current push to dismantle and remove statues of confederate leaders could be stopped by an initiative to replace them with effigies of his father.

“Want to save our monuments?” he wrote. “Let’s get a movement going to replace any statue torn down during these riots with a new and more sturdy statue of @realDonaldTrump. The nonsense would stop instantly.”

Jr. is such an arrogant f***. I really don't think he understands how reviled Donald is by many if not most people around the world.

Lemme show ya how that'd go over Mr. Elephant Hunter...

View attachment 288644

Actually that is a pretty hilarous tweet by Trump Jr.

Also, I love that Democrats hate him so much because his one of them. Acts exactly like a Democrat....except he understands business and the economy.

 

[LouderVol]

If all Lincoln cared about was preserving the Union he could have done that by not coming out against slavery or walking it back after elected. Lincoln wanted a slave free union.

No he didnt. He wanted the union as you stated. Read the Greely letter. Look at the timing of the Emancipation Procolamation. 1863, 2 years into the war. Clearly not an original reason. Look at where the emmanicipation proclamation actually applied to, captured southern territory, not the union states(not all of which were all slaves freed). Look at what he wanted to do with the slaves, deport them because there was no place in the union for them. He was only against the logistics of the matter not the morality of it. Abraham Lincoln's Letter to Horace Greeley

He was against slavery because it was the major source of wealth for his enemies. Similar to his approval of total war against the south. The removal of slavery was a tactical or strategic item, not ideology.

 

[Franklin Pierce]

Hundreds of National Guard troops mobilized to protect DC monuments amid protests

Hundreds of troops with the Washington, D.C., National Guard have mobilized to protect monuments in the nation's capital, a Pentagon spokesperson has confirmed.

Interior Secretary David Bernhardt requested the action earlier this week, as protesters target statues and other historical markers during ongoing demonstrations in the wake of George Floyd's police custody death in Minneapolis at the end of May.

The Pentagon confirmed that roughly 400 D.C. Guard members have been activated and are on standby.

Hundreds of National Guard troops mobilized to protect DC monuments amid protests

 

[MontyPython]

Actually that is a pretty hilarous tweet by Trump Jr.

Also, I love that Democrats hate him so much because his one of them. Acts exactly like a Democrat....except he understands business and the economy.

It is funny. Gotta admit it. What's even funnier is if they were to build any monument to Trump, it'd be torn down within hours. The entertainment value and humiliation he'd feel... priceless!

 

[MontyPython]

The University of Cincinnati will remove the name of a sports figure from its baseball stadium after renewed calls from students and alumni about her frequent use of offensive language.
The university's baseball stadium, as well as a section of its archives library, will no longer bear Marge Schott's name. Schott, a former owner of the Cincinnati Reds who died in 2004, frequently used racist, anti-Semitic and homophobic slurs.
"Marge Schott's record of racism and bigotry stands at stark odds with our University's core commitment to dignity, equity and inclusion," University of Cincinnati President Neville G. Pinto said in a statement.
The university's Board of Trustees unanimously voted to remove her name from the stadium and a section in the university's archives library this week after a petition from alumni and current student athletes urged the school to strip her legacy from the stadium.

 

[TheDeeble]

Trump is missing a real opportunity here. He should take the Brian Bosworth route and sell anti trump clothing at high prices to protesters and those that hate him.

 

[LouderVol]

The University of Cincinnati will remove the name of a sports figure from its baseball stadium after renewed calls from students and alumni about her frequent use of offensive language.
The university's baseball stadium, as well as a section of its archives library, will no longer bear Marge Schott's name. Schott, a former owner of the Cincinnati Reds who died in 2004, frequently used racist, anti-Semitic and homophobic slurs.
"Marge Schott's record of racism and bigotry stands at stark odds with our University's core commitment to dignity, equity and inclusion," University of Cincinnati President Neville G. Pinto said in a statement.
The university's Board of Trustees unanimously voted to remove her name from the stadium and a section in the university's archives library this week after a petition from alumni and current student athletes urged the school to strip her legacy from the stadium.

I got some bad news for anyone with a statue born before 1970, you probably said some words we now consider racist. You will be torn down.

 

[Sandman 423]

All of this only highlights why it's so important to understand that it's all on an ever changing continuum.
Everyone is on the racist continuum, that has always been the case and will continue to be the case.
I feel strongly that people should be judged according to their time.
We could have a figure from 1820 who was less racists than 80% of the people, but those some beliefs today might make him more racist than 90% of the people.
In my view, the person from 1820 who was less racist than 80% of the people is better than the person today who is more racist than 70% of the people; even though when comparing their beliefs side by side the person from 1820 seems much more racist.

Even with all the crazy stuff that has happened in 2020 I didn't think that it was a sign of the end of the world. Until now....... I agree with Luther. At least I got to see Tennessee get a Natty.

 

[Franklin Pierce]

Violent riots in Madison, Wisconsin Tuesday night culminated in the assault of a state senator and the destruction of a statue of Hans Christian Heg, an immigrant, early prison reformer, and leader of the abolition movement.

At the start of the Civil War, Heg swiftly volunteered to fight for his adopted country. Heg led his men, all made up of volunteer immigrants, to numerous victories before he was killed by a Confederate snipers bullet. To remember his sacrifice, a statue of him was built by a fellow immigrant, overseeing his home state of Wisconsin’s capital.

Tuesday night, the statue was torn down from his watch post by hundreds of rioters who had seized control of heavy equipment. After being dragged through the streets, his head was torn off, and what was left was sunk into a lake.

Rioters In Madison Assault State Senator, Behead Immigrant Abolitionist Monument

 

[MontyPython]

I got some bad news for anyone with a statue born before 1970, you probably said some words we now consider racist. You will be torn down.

Heh. She was waaaay racist. I mean, seriously bad.

Plus, doesn't the good Lord Almighty condemn idoltry? She (God) would totally approve of a little housekeeping.

Also, I'm guarding my own personal statue 24/7. Don't even think about it.

 

[Franklin Pierce]

Protesters Call for Removal of Robert Moses Statue in Long Island

Nearly 100 protesters called for the removal of a statue of New York public works and parks czar Robert Moses in Long Island on Saturday.

The protesters marched down Main Street in Babylon and chanted, “Hey, Hey, Ho, Ho, Robert Moses has to go,” while others held signs saying “Robert Moses Was a Racist,” the Long Island Press reported.

Protesters Call for Removal of Robert Moses Statue in Long Island

 

[LouderVol]

Heh. She was waaaay racist. I mean, seriously bad.

Plus, doesn't the good Lord Almighty condemn idoltry? She (God) would totally approve of a little housekeeping.

Also, I'm guarding my own personal statue 24/7. Don't even think about it.

I am saying be careful what you wish for.

 

[luthervol]

Even with all the crazy stuff that has happened in 2020 I didn't think that it was a sign of the end of the world. Until now....... I agree with Luther. At least I got to see Tennessee get a Natty.

A pig just flew by my front window.
It didn't generate much conversation, but I believe it is idiotic to judge a person's beliefs outside of the context of the time in which they lived.

 

[Franklin Pierce]

‘Not Going to Happen’ — Donald Trump Vows to Protect Statues of Jesus Christ from Leftist Mobs

President Donald Trump on Wednesday at the White House vowed to protect statues of Jesus Christ and statues of the Founding Fathers in the United States from leftist mobs seeking their destruction.

“They’re looking at Jesus Christ. They’re looking at George Washington. They’re looking Abraham Lincoln, Thomas Jefferson. Not going to happen,” Trump said. “Not going to happen as long as I’m here.”

Donald Trump Vows to Protect Statues of Jesus Christ from Leftist Mobs

 

[DynaLo]

Lincoln believed blacks were human. He alluded to their God given rights under the Consitution in many speeches.

He believed them to be inferior humans entitled to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness under the Constitution...AND... he was still a racist by his own words...

21 August 1858: “I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and the black races. There is a physical difference between the two, which, in my judgment, will probably forever forbid their living together upon the footing of perfect equality, and inasmuch as it becomes a necessity that there must be a difference, I, as well as Judge Douglas, am in favor of the race to which I belong having the superior position.”

27 August 1858
Question 1. "I desire to know whether Lincoln to-day stands, as he did in 1854, in favor of the unconditional repeal of the Fugitive Slave law?"
Answer. “I do not now, nor ever did, stand in favor of the unconditional repeal of the Fugitive Slave law.”

“As to the first one, in regard to the Fugitive Slave law, I have never hesitated to say, and I do not now hesitate to say, that I think, under the Constitution of the United States, the people of the Southern States are entitled to a Congressional Fugitive Slave law. Having said that, I have had nothing to say in regard to the existing Fugitive Slave law, further than that I think it should have been framed so as to be free from some of the objections that pertain to it, without lessening its efficiency. And inasmuch as we are not now in an agitation in regard to an alteration or modification of that law, I would not be the man to introduce it as a new subject of agitation upon the general question of slavery.”

18 September 1858
“While I was at the hotel to-day, an elderly gentleman called upon me to know whether I was really in favor of producing a perfect equality between the negroes and white people. [Great Laughter.] While I had not proposed to myself on this occasion to say much on that subject, yet as the question was asked me I thought I would occupy perhaps five minutes in saying something in regard to it. I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, -that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.”

“Judge Douglas has said to you that he has not been able to get from me an answer to the question whether I am in favor of negro citizenship. So far as I know, the Judge never asked me the question before. He shall have no occasion to ever ask it again, for I tell him very frankly that I am not in favor of negro citizenship.”


FFS...do they not actually teach history in school anymore?