Rick Barnes discussion (merged)

[cardvolfan]

I would be near certain that Barnes retires here when HE decides to retire here. All the smoke, all the discussion, the negativity and discord about the offense, the plateau, the losing in March is…..fodder. He’s going to be here, most likely, for several more years. I hope we hire a great coach when it happens, but full speed ahead with Barnes because he’s our man here until he isn‘t.

 

[jaguinn5]

Our first NCAA tournament appearance was in 1967, that is, 57 years ago. During the 57 year period from our first appearance to our upcoming appearance in March, we will have been in the big dance 25 times (less than 44% of the time). From the introduction of the field of 64 in 1985 to this year's tournament, we will have made the tournament 17 times in 39 years (again, less than 44% of the time). What is the whole that we're supposed to be looking at?

And of the 300+ teams woth ncaa tourney appearances, TN ranks in the top 50 in total appearances. Nobody is saying we are a blue blood, but we are not a historically bad program and Barnes hasn't lifted us out of decades of bad basketball.

 

[jaguinn5]

The whole? The 61% all time win percentage? The 8x Sweet 16s?

What is your point?

 

[UTFanHades]

And he tarnished all of those accomplishments. He left a dumpster fire in his wake which greatly damaged the program and its reputation.

Yet we still have those accomplishments listed on the banners in TBA and nothing was vacated. What was really tarnished? Additionally, can you really say it was a dumpster fire when his successor had a sweet 16? Is Bruce Pearl the problem in the years following his tenure or was it the hiring of Cuonzo Martin and Donnie Tyndall? Nearly all of UT basketball history between Mears and Pearl was a bigger dumpster fire than what he left. Lastly, you’re dodging my point, given all the accomplishments I listed-who are you benchmarking Pearl against when you say those are overrated?

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

Yet we still have those accomplishments listed on the banners in TBA and nothing was vacated. What was really tarnished? Additionally, can you really say it was a dumpster fire when his successor had a sweet 16? Is Bruce Pearl the problem in the years following his tenure or was it the hiring of Cuonzo Martin and Donnie Tyndall? Nearly all of UT basketball history between Mears and Pearl was a bigger dumpster fire than what he left. Lastly, you’re dodging my point, given all the accomplishments I listed-who are you benchmarking Pearl against when you say those are overrated?

The accomplishments are all cheapened by his leaving the program as a mess. The reputation was scarred.

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

What is your point?

That we’re currently winning well above a 61% rate, now getting to the NCAAT every year, and staying at the top of the conference and national rankings. Historical superlatives. The program is in great shape from a historical perspective. Despite the “fans” that are losing their minds over the 3rd and 4th single digit losses of the season that just happened on 3-point buzzer beaters.

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

Rising would mean moving to greater heights. Even Barnes staunchest of supporters would admit it’s starting to look like it’s plateauing.

Longevity is another way to measure it. The recruiting, rankings, and NCAAT invites are all on solid ground. It’s not Elite 8 one year and half of the regulars being arrested the next.

 

[cardvolfan]

The accomplishments are all cheapened by his leaving the program as a mess. The reputation was scarred.

It can’t be debated that it left a big black eye on the program, and it can’t be debated that the program lost its way, for the most part, between the Pearl debacle and the Barnes hiring. Basketball-wise, we were on very solid ground for 5 years, then the bad stuff hit.

 

[SGMVols]

The numerous off the court issues in the Pearl era (Ramar/Tyler Smith arrests and NCAA violations) showed the whole thing was a house of cards that was doomed to fail. It was fun for a minute though, no doubt.

The only player in the Barnes era to get in legal trouble was Detrick Mostella, who wasn’t recruited here by Barnes. Contrary to what some may think, you can have moral standards and still win.

 

[jaguinn5]

That we’re currently winning well above a 61% rate, now getting to the NCAAT every year, and staying at the top of the conference and national rankings. Historical superlatives. The program is in great shape from a historical perspective. Despite the “fans” that are losing their minds over the 3rd and 4th single digit losses of the season that just happened on 3-point buzzer beaters.

But we aren't doing anything now we haven't done before. Just like most programs we've had down years and we've had up years. Thats how it works. We are a top 50 program over the last 100+ years in win percentage and total wins. Weve had plenty of good years.. We aren't setting the high water mark for this program in anything. We are good, but not better than we've ever been. The goal isn't "don't be bad at basketball." The goal is to win championships, or to at least compete for them.

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

But we aren't doing anything now we haven't done before. Just like most programs we've had down years and we've had up years. Thats how it works. We are a top 50 program over the last 100+ years in win percentage and total wins. Weve had plenty of good years.. We aren't setting the high water mark for this program in anything. We are good, but not better than we've ever been. The goal isn't "don't be bad at basketball." The goal is to win championships, or to at least compete for them.

Winning 70% is a hell of a lot better than 60%.

 

[VolFreakJosh]

But we aren't doing anything now we haven't done before. Just like most programs we've had down years and we've had up years. Thats how it works. We are a top 50 program over the last 100+ years in win percentage and total wins. Weve had plenty of good years.. We aren't setting the high water mark for this program in anything. We are good, but not better than we've ever been. The goal isn't "don't be bad at basketball." The goal is to win championships, or to at least compete for them.

You mean like the SEC Championship last year?

 

[UTFanHades]

The accomplishments are all cheapened by his leaving the program as a mess. The reputation was scarred.

And yet, the university keeps the years on those banners up and hasn’t vacated any wins from that period. I guess we care about wins more than ethics? Additionally how do you quantify “cheapening” of wins? Are you saying we should vacate any or remove banners? Also, how do you quantify “reputation scarring” and demonstrate the impact to the program in an objective and demonstrable way?

Since you’re missing or dodging the point, I’ll ask a third time-tell me which coach Bruce Pearl’s achievements are overrated against?

 

[TNVOLFN]

But we aren't doing anything now we haven't done before. Just like most programs we've had down years and we've had up years. Thats how it works. We are a top 50 program over the last 100+ years in win percentage and total wins. Weve had plenty of good years.. We aren't setting the high water mark for this program in anything. We are good, but not better than we've ever been. The goal isn't "don't be bad at basketball." The goal is to win championships, or to at least compete for them.

Doesn't that happen through consistency and stability? I'm thrilled with Coach Barnes and have total faith in him. I hope he continues to lead this program for another 10 years... I know we have ended every year disappointed, but so does every other program - save any Cinderella and the National Champ - and his ability to lose assistants and maintain a high level is impressive.

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

And yet, the university keeps the years on those banners up and hasn’t vacated any wins from that period. I guess we care about wins more than ethics? Additionally how do you quantify “cheapening” of wins? Are you saying we should vacate any or remove banners? Also, how do you quantify “reputation scarring” and demonstrate the impact to the program in an objective and demonstrable way?

Since you’re missing or dodging the point, I’ll ask a third time-tell me which coach Bruce Pearl’s achievements are overrated against?

TN missed the NCAAT 5 of 6 years immediately after he left the program. He failed to accomplish building a better program.

 

[UTFanHades]

TN missed the NCAAT 5 of 6 years immediately after he left the program. He failed to accomplish building a better program.

How do you quantify what portion of that was his fault and what portion of that was Martin? Does Bruce Pearl get credit for Martin making the sweet 16 too since he’s fully responsible for the tournament misses?

By your logic, Buzz Peterson should get credit for an elite 8, two sweet 16’s, 6 of 6 tournament appearances, one regular season championship, and a 70% win ratio since your argument dictates that a coach is responsible for the direction of the program six years after leaving.

I’ll keep asking the questions you won’t answer from my last posts:
1) Which wins or years in the banners do we self-vacate in recognition of ethics?
2)What is the quantitative value of “cheapened” wins?
3) How do you objectively demonstrate “reputational scarring” to a program in a way that can be quantified?
4) what coach are we benchmarking Bruce Pearl’s overrated performance against?

The questions above are all simply trying to determine the rules and logic you’ve established in valuing coaching tenure.

 

[DowntownVol]

Another false narrative, btw, is that Pearl came to UT when the cupboard was bare and somehow built a winner out of nothing. Absolutely not true. His first team (2005) had C.J. Watson, Chris Lofton, Dane Bradshaw, Jajuan Smith, and Major Wingate on the roster. Undersized, yes, but nothing to sneeze at.

 

[jaguinn5]

Winning 70% is a hell of a lot better than 60%.

Math is correct. We've definitely done that before too.

 

[jaguinn5]

You mean like the SEC Championship last year?

Guess what, we've done that before too.

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

How do you quantify what portion of that was his fault and what portion of that was Martin? Does Bruce Pearl get credit for Martin making the sweet 16 too since he’s fully responsible for the tournament misses?

By your logic, Buzz Peterson should get credit for an elite 8, two sweet 16’s, 6 of 6 tournament appearances, one regular season championship, and a 70% win ratio since your argument dictates that a coach is responsible for the direction of the program six years after leaving.

I’ll keep asking the questions you won’t answer from my last posts:
1) Which wins or years in the banners do we self-vacate in recognition of ethics?
2)What is the quantitative value of “cheapened” wins?
3) How do you objectively demonstrate “reputational scarring” to a program in a way that can be quantified?
4) what coach are we benchmarking Bruce Pearl’s overrated performance against?

The questions above are all simply trying to determine the rules and logic you’ve established in valuing coaching tenure.

You don’t understand that building a program is the biggest accomplishment of anything.

And yes. Buzz gifting Chris Lofton and JaJuan Smith are a huge part of Pearl’s success. Pearl’s burning down the program did directly lead to TN’s fall into the abyss.

I don’t know how some people can breathe when they’ve got their heads so far up Pearl’s butt.

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

Guess what, we've done that before too.

Not since there were 10 teams in the SEC.

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

Math is correct. We've definitely done that before too.

Not consistently. History says 61.3%.

 

[SGMVols]

Another false narrative, btw, is that Pearl came to UT when the cupboard was bare and somehow built a winner out of nothing. Absolutely not true. His first team (2005) had C.J. Watson, Chris Lofton, Dane Bradshaw, Jajuan Smith, and Major Wingate on the roster. Undersized, yes, but nothing to sneeze at.

If we had those guys right now, we’d be the runaway favorite to win it all.

 

[UTFanHades]

You don’t understand that building a program is the biggest accomplishment of anything.

And yes. Buzz gifting Chris Lofton and JaJuan Smith are a huge part of Pearl’s success. Pearl’s burning down the program did directly lead to TN’s fall into the abyss.

I don’t know how some people can breathe when they’ve got their heads so far up Pearl’s butt.

So your argument is that building a program is the greatest accomplishment a coach can achieve but somehow the winning, recruiting, player development, marketing, fan buy-in, and all the numerous traits that go into building are because of Buzz Peterson? What level of all of that is objectively on Buzz (40%, 50%+)? Again, you create these metrics but oddly create exemptions for Bruce Pearl, why is that? While he no doubt inherited a good roster, isn’t it fair to say that same roster was developed entirely in his tenure and that the deep runs were in his tenure and not Peterson’s? If Bruce Pearl is a Jerry Green 2.0 that walks into a good situation and does nothing else how do you explain the at Sothern Indiana, Milwaukee, and Auburn? Since being at Auburn he’s won 1 outright regular season title, 1 shared title with Rick Barnes, 1 sec tournament, and a final four. Was Auburn in a good situation when he arrived? While he’s an unethical guy, he’s a great coach. It’s possible to be both and sadly we see it with a lot of greats like Pitino, Self, Calipari, Roy Williams, and others.

The fact that you’re resorting to personal attacks and can’t answer simple questions I ask around qualities of successful coaching tenures you’ve established is telling. The arguments you’ve created can’t be defended with a simple explanation because they’re largely illogical. I think Pearl had the second best tenure of a coach here while being unethical. He’s been slimy here and elsewhere but to pretend his tenure didn’t count or that he didn’t make TN basketball relevant is silly and disingenuous.

I’ll keep asking the questions you won’t answer from my last posts:
1) Which wins or years in the banners do we self-vacate in recognition of ethics?
2)What is the quantitative value of “cheapened” wins?
3) How do you objectively demonstrate “reputational scarring” to a program in a way that can be quantified?
4) What coach are we benchmarking Bruce Pearl’s overrated performance against?

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

So your argument is that building a program is the greatest accomplishment a coach can achieve but somehow the winning, recruiting, player development, marketing, fan buy-in, and all the numerous traits that go into building are because of Buzz Peterson? What level of all of that is objectively on Buzz (40%, 50%+)? Again, you create these metrics but oddly create exemptions for Bruce Pearl, why is that? While he no doubt inherited a good roster, isn’t it fair to say that same roster was developed entirely in his tenure and that the deep runs were in his tenure and not Peterson’s? If Bruce Pearl is a Jerry Green 2.0 that walks into a good situation and does nothing else how do you explain the at Sothern Indiana, Milwaukee, and Auburn? Since being at Auburn he’s won 1 outright regular season title, 1 shared title with Rick Barnes, 1 sec tournament, and a final four. Was Auburn in a good situation when he arrived? While he’s an unethical guy, he’s a great coach. It’s possible to be both and sadly we see it with a lot of greats like Pitino, Self, Calipari, Roy Williams, and others.

The fact that you’re resorting to personal attacks and can’t answer simple questions I ask around qualities of successful coaching tenures you’ve established is telling. The arguments you’ve created can’t be defended with a simple explanation because they’re largely illogical. I think Pearl had the second best tenure of a coach here while being unethical. He’s been slimy here and elsewhere but to pretend his tenure didn’t count or that he didn’t make TN basketball relevant is silly and disingenuous.

I’ll keep asking the questions you won’t answer from my last posts:
1) Which wins or years in the banners do we self-vacate in recognition of ethics?
2)What is the quantitative value of “cheapened” wins?
3) How do you objectively demonstrate “reputational scarring” to a program in a way that can be quantified?
4) What coach are we benchmarking Bruce Pearl’s overrated performance against?

Man, you are triggered. Bruce? Stephen?