Rick Barnes discussion (merged)

[UTFanHades]

Doesn't that happen through consistency and stability? I'm thrilled with Coach Barnes and have total faith in him. I hope he continues to lead this program for another 10 years... I know we have ended every year disappointed, but so does every other program - save any Cinderella and the National Champ - and his ability to lose assistants and maintain a high level is impressive.

I’m glad Barnes is here. He’s been a great success. I wonder why we have to sugar coat the March flops by saying everyone loses but one team? While that is true, I don’t think reasonable fans expect that even with the success Rick has brought. I’ll even say a final 4 would be presumptuous to ask for. I think it’s entirely fair to expect that we’d have more than one sweet 16 and/or an elite 8 by now.

 

[UTFanHades]

Man, you are triggered. Bruce? Stephen?

How is that I’m triggered when you’re the only one between the two of us resorting to personal attacks? Also, I’m debating your arguments on the merit of those arguments at each response and this is the second time you’ve resorted to personal attacks while avoiding the merits of my arguments. I’m not saying you’re projecting any alleged triggering but the evidence is there to make that connection. Happy to continue this discussion without personal attacks anytime you’re ready.

Current list of questions you’ve been unable to answer:
1) Which wins or years in the banners do we self-vacate in recognition of ethics?
2)What is the quantitative value of “cheapened” wins?
3) How do you objectively demonstrate “reputational scarring” to a program in a way that can be quantified?
4) what coach are we benchmarking Bruce Pearl’s overrated performance against?

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

How is that I’m triggered when you’re the only one between the two of us resorting to personal attacks? Also, I’m debating your arguments on the merit of those arguments at each response and this is the second time you’ve resorted to personal attacks while avoiding the merits of my arguments. I’m not saying you’re projecting any alleged triggering but the evidence is there to make that connection. Happy to continue this discussion without personal attacks anytime you’re ready.

You’re writing essays.

You’re also not comprehending my replies.

Bruce is the bestest. Carry on.

 

[UTFanHades]

You’re writing essays.

You’re also not comprehending my replies.

Bruce is the bestest. Carry on.

Is there a word limit we agreed on?

I’ve addressed each reply of yours in a respectful manner free from logical fallacies. If you’ve got objective and logical evidence I’m not comprehending please provide it.

I’ve not argued Bruce is the best UT coach. In fact I’ve said as much. This is a strawman argument that I have.

Current list of questions you’ve been unable to answer:
1) Which wins or years in the banners do we self-vacate in recognition of ethics?
2)What is the quantitative value of “cheapened” wins?
3) How do you objectively demonstrate “reputational scarring” to a program in a way that can be quantified?
4) what coach are we benchmarking Bruce Pearl’s overrated performance against?

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

Is there a word limit we agreed on?

I’ve addressed each reply of yours in a respectful manner free from logical fallacies. If you’ve got objective and logical evidence I’m not comprehending please provide it.

I’ve not argued Bruce is the best UT coach. In fact I’ve said as much. This is a strawman argument that I have.

I’ve answered your questions repeatedly. Therefore you are not comprehending.

 

[UTFanHades]

I’ve answered your questions repeatedly. Therefore you are not comprehending.

I respectfully disagree. The questions I’ve asked ask for specifics and quantifiable info, of which your responses are lacking. See below if you’d care to address:

Current list of questions you’ve been unable to answer:
1) Which wins or years in the banners do we self-vacate in recognition of ethics?
2)What is the quantitative value of “cheapened” wins?
3) How do you objectively demonstrate “reputational scarring” to a program in a way that can be quantified?
4) what coach are we benchmarking Bruce Pearl’s overrated performance against?

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

I respectfully disagree. The questions I’ve asked ask for specifics and quantifiable info, of which your responses are lacking. See below if you’d care to address:

Current list of questions you’ve been unable to answer:
1) Which wins or years in the banners do we self-vacate in recognition of ethics?
2)What is the quantitative value of “cheapened” wins?
3) How do you objectively demonstrate “reputational scarring” to a program in a way that can be quantified?
4) what coach are we benchmarking Bruce Pearl’s overrated performance against?

I said that Pearl’s accomplishments are overrated. He lied to the NCAA. He lied to his bosses. He lied to us (the fans). He lied about Brian Williams. He recruited some very flawed kids. He inherited a fat roster and left the place a smoldering mess. That in its entirety didn’t accomplish ****. He embarrassed the university with his act. He’s in the perfect spot. Barn is the most corrupt athletic program in the SEC.

Since you want to quantify everything - 5 of the 6 years in his wake TN failed to make the NCAAT field. He set the program back. He inherited (probably) the best group of guards in UT history. There’s a long list of coaches that would have been successful with them.

 

[Orange.]

 

[UTFanHades]

A

I said that Pearl’s accomplishments are overrated. He lied to the NCAA. He lied to his bosses. He lied to us (the fans). He lied about Brian Williams. He recruited some very flawed kids. He inherited a fat roster and left the place a smoldering mess. That in its entirety didn’t accomplish ****. He embarrassed the university with his act. He’s in the perfect spot. Barn is the most corrupt athletic program in the SEC.

Since you want to quantify everything - 5 of the 6 years in his wake TN failed to make the NCAAT field. He set the program back. He inherited (probably) the best group of guards in UT history. There’s a long list of coaches that would have been successful with them.

And again-overrated within the context of which coach’s record? Not one post-season accomplishment or win vacated. He (probably rightfully) got canned for being unethical. Doesn’t change what he accomplished.

To be clear-you haven’t quantified what portion of the post Pearl period was Martin and Tyndall coaching poorly vs having nothing to work with. You’ve simply stated they both had bad tenures that, for some illogical reasoning, makes no sense. If Martin’s record was all on Bruce Pearl, why was he fired? AD’s, with rare exception, provide a grace period for coaches who inherit a mess. At what year does a coach get credit for a win in his tenure? How much of Barnes tenure is actually because of the efforts of Martin and Tyndall under your logic?

Current list of questions you’ve been unable to answer:
1) Which wins or years in the banners do we self-vacate in recognition of ethics?
2)What is the quantitative value of “cheapened” wins?
3) How do you objectively demonstrate “reputational scarring” to a program in a way that can be quantified?
4) what coach are we benchmarking Bruce Pearl’s overrated performance against?

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

A

And again-overrated within the context of which coach’s record? Not one post-season accomplishment or win vacated. He (probably rightfully) got canned for being unethical. Doesn’t change what he accomplished.

To be clear-you haven’t quantified what portion of the post Pearl period was Martin and Tyndall coaching poorly vs having nothing to work with. You’ve simply stated they both had bad tenures that, for some illogical reasoning, makes no sense. If Martin’s record was all on Bruce Pearl, why was he fired? AD’s, with rare exception, provide a grace period for coaches who inherit a mess. At what year does a coach get credit for a win in his tenure? How much of Barnes tenure is actually because of the efforts of Martin and Tyndall under your logic?

Current list of questions you’ve been unable to answer:
1) Which wins or years in the banners do we self-vacate in recognition of ethics?
2)What is the quantitative value of “cheapened” wins?
3) How do you objectively demonstrate “reputational scarring” to a program in a way that can be quantified?
4) what coach are we benchmarking Bruce Pearl’s overrated performance against?

Lack of a moral compass isn’t something that can be quantified. Your obsession with numbers is weird.

Pearl left the program as a blazing dumpster fire. Probably about 1200 degrees centigrade. Or Celsius if you prefer.

 

[UTFanHades]

Lack of a moral compass isn’t something that can be quantified. Your obsession with numbers is weird.

Pearl left the program as a blazing dumpster fire. Probably about 1200 degrees centigrade. Or Celsius if you prefer.

Thanks for proving my point. You’ve arrived where I had hoped, at the logical conclusion of an illogical argument. You’re stating something that can’t be quantified somehow is measureable and exceeds that which can be qualified. Not just anything that can be quantified, but solid records in wins, conference titles, and tournament success. This makes no sense because you’re making a point you can’t prove through evidence. Your argument is clearly based on feeling and emotion and short on facts and logic. This is what I’ve been stating the whole time.

Current list of questions you’ve been unable to answer:
1) Which wins or years in the banners do we self-vacate in recognition of ethics?
2)What is the quantitative value of “cheapened” wins?
3) How do you objectively demonstrate “reputational scarring” to a program in a way that can be quantified?
4) what coach are we benchmarking Bruce Pearl’s overrated performance against?
5) what year of Barnes’ tenure did his wins become his and not those of Martin/Tyndall. Under your rule created for Pearl, this is beyond six years since you attribute his tenure to Buzz Peterson.

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

Thanks for proving my point. You’ve arrived where I had hoped, at the logical conclusion of an illogical argument. You’re stating something that can’t be quantified somehow is measureable and exceeds that which can be qualified. Not just anything that can be quantified, but solid records in wins, conference titles, and tournament success. This makes no sense because you’re making a point you can’t prove through evidence. Your argument is clearly based on feeling and emotion and short on facts and logic. This is what I’ve been stating the whole time.

Current list of questions you’ve been unable to answer:
1) Which wins or years in the banners do we self-vacate in recognition of ethics?
2)What is the quantitative value of “cheapened” wins?
3) How do you objectively demonstrate “reputational scarring” to a program in a way that can be quantified?
4) what coach are we benchmarking Bruce Pearl’s overrated performance against?
5) what year of Barnes’ tenure did his wins become his and not those of Martin/Tyndall. Under your rule created for Pearl, this is beyond six years since you attribute his tenure to Buzz Peterson.

The facts are that Pearl is a chronic liar and it tarnishes his legacy, his ACCOMPLISHMENTS, and his character (if he had any). He did as much, if not more, harm than good.

 

[UTFanHades]

The facts are that Pearl is a chronic liar and it tarnishes his legacy, his ACCOMPLISHMENTS, and his character (if he had any). He did as much, if not more, harm than good.

He’s certainly lied and that certainly has had some level of tarnishing to his rep and his time at other places, I’m not arguing that point. To state that the lack of ethics overcomes his court and program accomplishments isn’t something that can be proven objectively.

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

He’s certainly lied and that certainly has had some level of tarnishing to his rep and his time at other places, I’m not arguing that point. To state that the lack of ethics overcomes his court and program accomplishments isn’t something that can be proven objectively.

Those are exactly the things that overshadow what was good for the program. He tarnished the university as well as his rep.

 

[UTFanHades]

Those are exactly the things that overshadow what was good for the program. He tarnished the university as well as his rep.

You do realize that making a mantra of something that can’t be measured not only doesn’t make it true but further doesn’t mean it’s greater than something that can be quantified, right?

 

[DuckInAPen]

You do realize that making a mantra of something that can’t be measured not only doesn’t make it true but further doesn’t mean it’s greater than something that can be quantified, right?

Not everything that's meaningful is quantifiable (the most meaningful things are, perhaps, the least quantifiable). Barnes has conducted himself with dignity. He's recruited and guided players worthy of the name student-athlete and worthy of my alma mater. Pearl exhibited poor morals, and not a small number of his players were criminals. For all his success, Pearl brought shame upon my alma mater. I'm not going to try to assign a number to that, but it's real, and it matters to me (and, I suspect, not only to me).

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

You do realize that making a mantra of something that can’t be measured not only doesn’t make it true but further doesn’t mean it’s greater than something that can be quantified, right?

He lied to the NCAA, his bosses at UT, and the fans. That’s at least 3 strikes against the accomplishments. He also had X number of players breaking the law - 4 on 1/1/2010. Williams (allegedly) kept X grams of something in his backpack. Ramar was associated with at least 1 shooting. Pearl stole $1,000,000 on his way out the door and was okay with his assistants getting zero. UM embarrassed TN by 30 in his last game. UL as well - by 19 versus his winningest team. Steven Pearl played 845 minutes.

 

[Delmar]

Not everything that's meaningful is quantifiable (the most meaningful things are, perhaps, the least quantifiable). Barnes has conducted himself with dignity. He's recruited and guided players worthy of the name student-athlete and worthy of my alma mater. Pearl exhibited poor morals, and not a small number of his players were criminals. For all his success, Pearl brought shame upon my alma mater. I'm not going to try to assign a number to that, but it's real, and it matters to me (and, I suspect, not only to me).

Matters to me too. One thing I’ve learned in life Duck (and I’ve been around a while) is that some folks value results over ethics. Coaching, politics, business or fans , it doesn’t matter. Personally I believe you can have both but some folks like shortcuts.

 

[Mccage]

Rock Barnes was hired for stability. For all his shortcomings, he has brought that to the program. He will win a good amount if games and recruit well. He won't cause controversy or bring NCAA investigations. Atthe time of his hiring, that was what we needed. For those reasons, he has a very long leash.

That being said, he will never be a threat to win a championship. I feel that if Danny White feels like he can get someone better, he has the balls to do it. He just has to wait until the shortcomings become loud enough to rip off the bandaid. Barnes is almost 70 and underperforming based on expectations. For every year he doesn't make a tournament run, especially considering his recruiting success and expectations, his leash gets a little shorter. His age also starts to become a factor. He will be here for another couple of years at least (unless he retires unexpectedly) but if he hasn't made a tournament run in the next two years, he may not see a third year in his early 70s.

Never a threat to win a Championship? He won a Championship last year..

 

[UTFanHades]

Not everything that's meaningful is quantifiable (the most meaningful things are, perhaps, the least quantifiable). Barnes has conducted himself with dignity. He's recruited and guided players worthy of the name student-athlete and worthy of my alma mater. Pearl exhibited poor morals, and not a small number of his players were criminals. For all his success, Pearl brought shame upon my alma mater. I'm not going to try to assign a number to that, but it's real, and it matters to me (and, I suspect, not only to me).

I didn’t say things that can’t be quantified aren’t meaningful. Read my posts again. Read the questions I’ve listed that no one has yet answered. I’m stating you can’t prove these overcome his court achievements objectively, which is the argument others have made.

I agree Barnes has been very ethical. The only lapse I can think of is how he treated the university and fans when UCLA came calling and he knew he had us by the short hairs. Could have quietly worked out something for a fair salary but played the game like everybody else. I’d never say that overcomes his lowest on court stat objectively though, which is my point.

 

[UTFanHades]

He lied to the NCAA, his bosses at UT, and the fans. That’s at least 3 strikes against the accomplishments. He also had X number of players breaking the law - 4 on 1/1/2010. Williams (allegedly) kept X grams of something in his backpack. Ramar was associated with at least 1 shooting. Pearl stole $1,000,000 on his way out the door and was okay with his assistants getting zero. UM embarrassed TN by 30 in his last game. UL as well - by 19 versus his winningest team. Steven Pearl played 845 minutes.

Current list of questions you’ve been unable to answer:
1) Which wins or years in the banners do we self-vacate in recognition of ethics?
2)What is the quantitative value of “cheapened” wins?
3) How do you objectively demonstrate “reputational scarring” to a program in a way that can be quantified?
4) what coach are we benchmarking Bruce Pearl’s overrated performance against?
5) what year of Barnes’ tenure did his wins become his and not those of Martin/Tyndall. Under your rule created for Pearl, this is beyond six years since you attribute his tenure to Buzz Peterson.

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

Current list of questions you’ve been unable to answer:
1) Which wins or years in the banners do we self-vacate in recognition of ethics?
2)What is the quantitative value of “cheapened” wins?
3) How do you objectively demonstrate “reputational scarring” to a program in a way that can be quantified?
4) what coach are we benchmarking Bruce Pearl’s overrated performance against?
5) what year of Barnes’ tenure did his wins become his and not those of Martin/Tyndall. Under your rule created for Pearl, this is beyond six years since you attribute his tenure to Buzz Peterson.

You’re awfully proud of your idiotic list. How many times have you copied and pasted this crap now? About 6x?

 

[jaguinn5]

Never a threat to win a Championship? He won a Championship last year..

Not a CONFERENCE championship.

 

[Pennheel]

I'm a little late to the party,so you'll have to excuse me if the same point has been made nonstop. However, for Tennessee basketball,Rick Barnes is the perfect fit. He brings stability and ethics where previous coaches lacked that in spades. You know what you're going to get with ol Ricky from Hickory. Yes, he can be very frustrating come tournament time by getting put out in the first or second round on a regular basis ,and overacheive occasionally. With that being said , I'd take him compared to how Blueblood programs (Carolina,Duke and Kentucky) are doing lately.


He gives you a shot to get to the big dance. I won't pretend to know that he'll be getting them to the elite 8 or Final four this year, but I enjoy the journey,and am a big fan of his coaching style.

 

[UTFanHades]

You’re awfully proud of your idiotic list. How many times have you copied and pasted this crap now? About 6x?

If you can answer them I’ll start removing questions. Until then shall we call it 7?

Current list of questions you’ve been unable to answer:
1) Which wins or years in the banners do we self-vacate in recognition of ethics?
2)What is the quantitative value of “cheapened” wins?
3) How do you objectively demonstrate “reputational scarring” to a program in a way that can be quantified?
4) what coach are we benchmarking Bruce Pearl’s overrated performance against?
5) what year of Barnes’ tenure did his wins become his and not those of Martin/Tyndall. Under your rule created for Pearl, this is beyond six years since you attribute his tenure to Buzz Peterson.