RIP Twitter

Just pretend like we have proof that the FBI paid for censorship.

Again, if what happened was so bad, why can't we stick to the facts? Why can't we just say, "this is a problematic relationship with conflicts of interest and I think pay for suppression is plausible." Instead of "the FBI was paying for suppression of speech based on these revelations that aren't actually proof of pay for suppression."

What we do know is bad enough and jumping to conclusions and misleading weakens the position.

I've given you repeated opportunity to respond to the facts, you've declined.

Our agencies acted as they accused Russia; they purposely sought to influence the 2020 election, and did so by lying outright to the media companies - already antagonistic toward Trump - and led them to conclude the laptop was a Russian hack/leak operation. That FBI paid them is of no consequence; that FBI sought to determine the presidency via a propaganda operation is the point. It highlights that our own agencies are far more dangerous than our foreign adversaries.

Show me the critical piece I'm missing and I'll admit my error. Otherwise...
 
Huh? You said "suppressed" and that's exactly what I'm saying hasn't been demonstrated.

Some of you are just here to play games and dgas about truth.

This needs to be a named rule. Maybe we can call it huff's law, but if it's so bad, then why can't we stick to the facts?
Right they asked twit-er to suppress information and paid them to manage the request.
it’s ****ing bull **** playing with words to explain away criminal behavior. Not surprised you don’t have a problem with it.
 
3.5M dollars?? There seem to be only a few possible scenarios:

1- the FBI made a lot of “requests”
2- Twitter spent a lot of hours developing special projects to meet the requirements of the FBI’s “requests”
3- this was a big profit center for Twitter
4- this was a gift to Twitter to ensure the compliance continued
Pretty much.
 
I've given you repeated opportunity to respond to the facts, you've declined.

Our agencies acted as they accused Russia; they purposely sought to influence the 2020 election, and did so by lying outright to the media companies - already antagonistic toward Trump - and led them to conclude the laptop was a Russian hack/leak operation. That FBI paid them is of no consequence; that FBI sought to determine the presidency via a propaganda operation is the point. It highlights that our own agencies are far more dangerous than our foreign adversaries.

Show me the critical piece I'm missing and I'll admit my error. Otherwise...
Everyone knows our government does it in other countries, so why do they have so much trouble believing that our government does it here as well?
 
Just pretend like we have proof that the FBI paid for censorship.

Again, if what happened was so bad, why can't we stick to the facts? Why can't we just say, "this is a problematic relationship with conflicts of interest and I think pay for suppression is plausible." Instead of "the FBI was paying for suppression of speech based on these revelations that aren't actually proof of pay for suppression."

What we do know is bad enough and jumping to conclusions and misleading weakens the position.

I'm not really following. We know the fbi "requested" censorship. We now know that they paid millions to process "requests". We know that Twitter censored in accordance with the FBI's "requests". How is that not a direct line?
 
Hey Goofey's, it was frumpy pants' GOV. And twit was funded in large part by the russians, and saudis. They were using it to fry your brains in a massive psy op against America. Every accusation is a confession.
 
I'm not really following. We know the fbi "requested" censorship. We now know that they paid millions to process "requests". We know that Twitter censored in accordance with the FBI's "requests". How is that not a direct line?
It literally is. I'm guessing there's residual brain damage from decades of drug abuse or something that's causing this confusion. If we're all around in 10 years he'll be posting like double dongs.
 
Hey Goofey's, it was frumpy pants' GOV. And twit was funded in large part by the russians, and saudis. They were using it to fry your brains in a massive psy op against America. Every accusation is a confession.
So the folks that share twits here have been brain washed? I can't say I disagree.
 
Hey Goofey's, it was frumpy pants' GOV. And twit was funded in large part by the russians, and saudis. They were using it to fry your brains in a massive psy op against America. Every accusation is a confession.

It’s a good thing you quit Twitter before they were able to fry your brain . 👀
 
I'm not really following. We know the fbi "requested" censorship. We now know that they paid millions to process "requests". We know that Twitter censored in accordance with the FBI's "requests". How is that not a direct line?

You have to be able to demonstrate that compensation had to do with suppressing information. You can't just say, "some people in the FBI flagged TOS violations and some other FBI agents requested and paid for information (with court orders) from another department, ipso facto, they paid for suppression." That will not hold up in court. It shouldn't hold up in journalism. It shouldn't be the conclusion we draw on Volnation. It's OK to be suspicious and fear coercion, bribery, and other conflicts of interest, but the evidence does not indicate that coercion and bribery were problems. Just that they might have been problems.

I highly doubt any of you read the Tech Dirt article I linked to, so I'll grab some excerpts. @DC_Vol check out the last paragraph. It states Twitter received over 2k data information requests in just half a year, so that gives you an idea of the scale of the work. Not sure if that adds up to $1.7M.

I’m no fan of the FBI, and have spent much of the two and a half decades here at Techdirt criticizing it. What the files show is that the FBI would occasionally (not very often, frankly) using reporting tools to alert Twitter to accounts that potentially violated Twitter’s rules. When the FBI did so, it was pretty clear that it was just flagging these accounts for Twitter to review, and had no expectation that the company would or would not do anything about it. In fact, they are explicit in their email that the accounts “may potentially constitute violations of Twitter’s Terms of Service” and that Twitter can take “any action or inaction deemed appropriate within Twitter policy.”

That is not a demand. There is no coercion associated with the email, and it certainly appears that Twitter frequently rejected these flags from the US government. Twitter’s most recent transparency report lists all of the “legal demands” the company received for content removals in the US, and its compliance rate is 40.6%. In other words, it complied with well under half of any "demands" for data removal from the government.

Indeed, even as presented (repeatedly) by Taibbi and Shellenberger as if it’s proof that Twitter closely cooperated with the FBI, over and over again if you read the actual screenshots, it shows Twitter (rightly!) pushing back on the FBI....Shellenberger, shows Twitter’s Yoel Roth rejecting a request from the FBI to share information, saying they need to take the proper legal steps to request that info.

Right now, anyone can do this. You or I can go on Twitter and if we see something that we think violates a content policy, we can flag it for Twitter to review. Twitter than will review the content and determine whether or not it’s violative, and then decide what the remedy should be if it is. That opens up an interesting question in general: should government officials and entities also be allowed to do the same type of flagging? Considering that anyone else can do it, and the company still reviews against its own terms of service and (importantly) feels free to reject those requests when they do not appear to violate the terms, I’m hard pressed to see the problem here on its own.

If there were evidence that there was some pressure, coercion, or compulsion for the company to comply with the government requests, that would be a different story. But, to date, there remains none (at least in the US).

The law already says that if the FBI is legally requesting information for an investigation under a number of different legal authorities, the companies receiving those requests can be reimbursed for fulfilling them.

1671635681721.png

But note what this is limited to. These are investigatory requests for information, or so called 2703(d) requests, which require a court order. Now, there are reasons to be concerned about the 2703(d) program. I mean, going back to 2013, when it was revealed that the 2703(d) program was abused as part of an interpretation of the Patriot Act to allow the DOJ/NSA to collect data secretly from companies, we’ve highlighted the many problems with the program.

So, by the way, did old Twitter. More than a decade ago, Twitter went to court to challenge the claim that a Twitter user had no standing to challenge a 2703(d) order. Unfortunately, Twitter lost and the feds are still allowed to use these orders (which, again, require a judge to sign off on them).

I do think it remains a scandal the way that 2703(d) orders work, and the inability of users to push back on them. But that is the law. And it has literally nothing whatsoever to do with “censorship” requests. It is entirely about investigations by the FBI into Twitter users based on evidence of a crime.

The reimbursement that is talked about in that email is about complying with these information production orders that have been reviewed and signed by a judge.

It’s got nothing at all to do with “censorship demands.” And yet Musk and friends are going hog wild pushing this utter nonsense.

Meanwhile, Twitter’s own transparency report again already reveals data on these orders as part of its “data information requests” list, where it shows that in the latest period reported (second half of 2021) it received 2.3k requests specifying 11.3k accounts, and complied with 69% of the requests.
 
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You have to be able to demonstrate that compensation had to do with suppressing information. You can't just say, "some people in the FBI flagged TOS violations and some other FBI agents requested and paid for information (with court orders) from another department, ipso facto, they paid for suppression." That will not hold up in court. It shouldn't hold up in journalism. It shouldn't be the conclusion we draw on Volnation. It's OK to be suspicious and fear coercion, bribery, and other conflicts of interest, but the evidence does not indicate that coercion and bribery were problems. Just that they might have been problems.

I highly doubt any of you read the Tech Dirt article I linked to, so I'll grab some excerpts. @DC_Vol check out the last paragraph. It states Twitter received over 2k data information requests in just half a year, so that gives you an idea of the scale of the work. Not sure if that adds up to $1.7M.

I’m no fan of the FBI, and have spent much of the two and a half decades here at Techdirt criticizing it. What the files show is that the FBI would occasionally (not very often, frankly) using reporting tools to alert Twitter to accounts that potentially violated Twitter’s rules. When the FBI did so, it was pretty clear that it was just flagging these accounts for Twitter to review, and had no expectation that the company would or would not do anything about it. In fact, they are explicit in their email that the accounts “may potentially constitute violations of Twitter’s Terms of Service” and that Twitter can take “any action or inaction deemed appropriate within Twitter policy.”

That is not a demand. There is no coercion associated with the email, and it certainly appears that Twitter frequently rejected these flags from the US government. Twitter’s most recent transparency report lists all of the “legal demands” the company received for content removals in the US, and its compliance rate is 40.6%. In other words, it complied with well under half of any "demands" for data removal from the government.

Indeed, even as presented (repeatedly) by Taibbi and Shellenberger as if it’s proof that Twitter closely cooperated with the FBI, over and over again if you read the actual screenshots, it shows Twitter (rightly!) pushing back on the FBI....Shellenberger, shows Twitter’s Yoel Roth rejecting a request from the FBI to share information, saying they need to take the proper legal steps to request that info.

Right now, anyone can do this. You or I can go on Twitter and if we see something that we think violates a content policy, we can flag it for Twitter to review. Twitter than will review the content and determine whether or not it’s violative, and then decide what the remedy should be if it is. That opens up an interesting question in general: should government officials and entities also be allowed to do the same type of flagging? Considering that anyone else can do it, and the company still reviews against its own terms of service and (importantly) feels free to reject those requests when they do not appear to violate the terms, I’m hard pressed to see the problem here on its own.

If there were evidence that there was some pressure, coercion, or compulsion for the company to comply with the government requests, that would be a different story. But, to date, there remains none (at least in the US).

The law already says that if the FBI is legally requesting information for an investigation under a number of different legal authorities, the companies receiving those requests can be reimbursed for fulfilling them.

View attachment 525580

But note what this is limited to. These are investigatory requests for information, or so called 2703(d) requests, which require a court order. Now, there are reasons to be concerned about the 2703(d) program. I mean, going back to 2013, when it was revealed that the 2703(d) program was abused as part of an interpretation of the Patriot Act to allow the DOJ/NSA to collect data secretly from companies, we’ve highlighted the many problems with the program.

So, by the way, did old Twitter. More than a decade ago, Twitter went to court to challenge the claim that a Twitter user had no standing to challenge a 2703(d) order. Unfortunately, Twitter lost and the feds are still allowed to use these orders (which, again, require a judge to sign off on them).

I do think it remains a scandal the way that 2703(d) orders work, and the inability of users to push back on them. But that is the law. And it has literally nothing whatsoever to do with “censorship” requests. It is entirely about investigations by the FBI into Twitter users based on evidence of a crime.

The reimbursement that is talked about in that email is about complying with these information production orders that have been reviewed and signed by a judge.

It’s got nothing at all to do with “censorship demands.” And yet Musk and friends are going hog wild pushing this utter nonsense.

Meanwhile, Twitter’s own transparency report again already reveals data on these orders as part of its “data information requests” list, where it shows that in the latest period reported (second half of 2021) it received 2.3k requests specifying 11.3k accounts, and complied with 69% of the requests.

"That is not a demand. There is no coercion associated with the email, and it certainly appears that Twitter frequently rejected these flags from the US government. Twitter’s most recent transparency report lists all of the “legal demands” the company received for content removals in the US, and its compliance rate is 40.6%. In other words, it complied with well under half of any "demands" for data removal from the government."

These aren't demands, but they are, but twitter only complied with half of them... OK? Something isn't adding up.
 
"That is not a demand. There is no coercion associated with the email, and it certainly appears that Twitter frequently rejected these flags from the US government. Twitter’s most recent transparency report lists all of the “legal demands” the company received for content removals in the US, and its compliance rate is 40.6%. In other words, it complied with well under half of any "demands" for data removal from the government."

These aren't demands, but they are, but twitter only complied with half of them... OK? Something isn't adding up.

He's saying that flagging a TOS is not a demand and then he is talking about actual "legal demands" and if you follow the link, you will see that. Just ctrl F "40.6" to get there.
 
Ok. So is there a way to ever draw a direct line other than the FBI or Twitter accountants producing a ledger showing payments with a description line of "for free speech censoring"?

I guess an email like "Okay, FBI! Your check cleared! We're processing your censoring requests now!" would also suffice? Any other way of drawing a straight line?
 
Sorry but not sorry that I am angry..Listening to the radio people are pissed and about to go ballistic.
This, shoving a $1.7T monstrosity down our threat, the border, everything.
 
Ok. So is there a way to ever draw a direct line other than the FBI or Twitter accountants producing a ledger showing payments with a description line of "for free speech censoring"?

I guess an email like "Okay, FBI! Your check cleared! We're processing your censoring requests now!" would also suffice? Any other way of drawing a straight line?

Sam figuring out in real time how proof works ; )
 

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