Roe vs Wade Overturned

[Vol8188]

OMG, you are just talking around in circles. Let's do the flowchart.

Does life start at conception? If yes, isn't all abortion murder? If yes, then what is the justification for allowing murder before 6 weeks?

You ask about the point where I would consider it to be murder. Totally irrelevant, I am not anti-abortion, and you are the one claiming that it is the taking of another life.

That is my point. You are condoning taking life prior to 6 weeks. Taking life is your description, not mine.

You keep ignoring why 6 weeks. And I’m not talking in circles at all. My responses are far more concise than your own.

When you consider it murder is highly relevant because the point is we all (democrats, republicans, etc) consider it murder at some point. Yet you’re only upset with one side for compromising on when they personally consider it murder vs legally. Why?

Edit: I noticed you asked a direct question that I didn't respond to. 1: is it alive at conception? Obviously. That is the entire reason abortion is a debated topic. Literally no one is arguing that a zygote/fetus is "not alive". Both sides agree to that. 2: If by murder you aren't using a legal definition but rather simply saying "isn't all abortion ending a human life?" than yes. Once again, that's why it's such a hotly debated topic. Neither of those things are debatable. They're both obvious facts.

The debate around abortion isn't "is it alive" or "are we killing it" but rather "at one point should you be able to". I'm not sure how you don't understand that. That's why I keep asking (and you keep ignoring) when you consider it to be murder.

 

[turbovol]

12 weeks is a very reasonable time frame for all but the christian crazies. Many women don't even know they're pregnant at 6 weeks.
It's just the usual insanity from conservatives. The sad hypocrisy here is that conservatives don't like poor black people and don't like to help poor people generally, and yet their absurd, extremist abortion policies will just result in poor women having /more/ babies who will not be raised properly and who will grow up on the street and with problems--and the conservative/GOP response to people with problems is, tough luck. And then they'll also complain about crime. And of course the same anti-abortion zombies who claim to care so much about embryos don't give a good god-damn about children murdered by guns in their schools--or any innocents killed by assault rifles and other guns. They reek of hypocrisy.

 

[Vol8188]

12 weeks is a very reasonable time frame for all but the christian crazies. Many women don't even know they're pregnant at 6 weeks.
It's just the usual insanity from conservatives.

You realize it's not the Christian crazies in this country who were pushing that number to 24 weeks or later, right? The idea that only one side in this debate is crazy, is well...crazy.

 

[Vol8188]

12 weeks is a very reasonable time frame for all but the christian crazies. Many women don't even know they're pregnant at 6 weeks.
It's just the usual insanity from conservatives. The sad hypocrisy here is that conservatives don't like poor black people and don't like to help poor people generally, and yet their absurd, extremist abortion policies will just result in poor women having /more/ babies who will not be raised properly and who will grow up on the street and with problems--and the conservative/GOP response to people with problems is, tough luck. And then they'll also complain about crime. And of course the same anti-abortion zombies who claim to care so much about embryos don't give a good god-damn about children murdered by guns in their schools--or any innocents killed by assault rifles and other guns. They reek of hypocrisy.

I have a great solution to this problem. We move away from the hedonism of the sexual revolution and the absurd idea that fulfilling your every desire is what makes you "authentically you" and move back towards traditional morality, monogamy, marriage, etc.

Until we do that, no policy will fix the problems you're bringing up.

 

[Orangeburst]

12 weeks is a very reasonable time frame for all but the christian crazies. Many women don't even know they're pregnant at 6 weeks.
It's just the usual insanity from conservatives. The sad hypocrisy here is that conservatives don't like poor black people and don't like to help poor people generally, and yet their absurd, extremist abortion policies will just result in poor women having /more/ babies who will not be raised properly and who will grow up on the street and with problems--and the conservative/GOP response to people with problems is, tough luck. And then they'll also complain about crime. And of course the same anti-abortion zombies who claim to care so much about embryos don't give a good god-damn about children murdered by guns in their schools--or any innocents killed by assault rifles and other guns. They reek of hypocrisy.

You sound like somebody who has been propagandized
whilst ignoring that Dem policies have not been successful

 

[McDad]

The obvious counter point you're missing here is that at some point everyone, even yourself, considers it murder. Are you willing to state the point you consider it murder? Republicans in many states have settled on 6 weeks as that point. There's a very obvious medical reason for picking that point also, that you seem to be intentionally ignoring in order to make what you think is a point.

You keep ignoring why 6 weeks. And I’m not talking in circles at all. My responses are far more concise than your own.

When you consider it murder is highly relevant because the point is we all (democrats, republicans, etc) consider it murder at some point. Yet you’re only upset with one side for compromising on when they personally consider it murder vs legally. Why?

Edit: I noticed you asked a direct question that I didn't respond to. 1: is it alive at conception? Obviously. That is the entire reason abortion is a debated topic. Literally no one is arguing that a zygote/fetus is "not alive". Both sides agree to that. 2: If by murder you aren't using a legal definition but rather simply saying "isn't all abortion ending a human life?" than yes. Once again, that's why it's such a hotly debated topic. Neither of those things are debatable. They're both obvious facts.

The debate around abortion isn't "is it alive" or "are we killing it" but rather "at one point should you be able to". I'm not sure how you don't understand that. That's why I keep asking (and you keep ignoring) when you consider it to be murder.

I remember you when you first began posting in the PF. Your perspective has changed since then. I don't agree with all you post but credit where credit is due.

Those two posts are the best logical progressions I've seen you make. Nice work.

 

[McDad]

I have a great solution to this problem. We move away from the hedonism of the sexual revolution and the absurd idea that fulfilling your every desire is what makes you "authentically you" and move back towards traditional morality, monogamy, marriage, etc.

Until we do that, no policy will fix the problems you're bringing up.

You saw your shot and took it....and went for broke.

The hedonistic genie is never going back into the bottle.

 

[Vol8188]

You saw your shot and took it....and went for broke.

The hedonistic genie is never going back into the bottle.

I have to remain hopeful. I do think we have multiple generations now who have seen the damage for themselves. Sadly for many it's too late like the women in their 40's you hear about who realize they should have started a family.

It's interesting you just mentioned my old ways of thinking. 100% influenced by hedonism. As a younger man I was a big fan of Henry Miller, Hemingway, Bukowski, and a lot of other authors (Wilde's Dorian Gray was a favorite for awhile) who were rejecting traditional values in favor of hedonism. I eventually saw the error in my ways and I'm hopeful society as a whole will eventually too.

But I don't see many signs of any kind of reversal at this point, sadly.

 

[FLVOL_79]

12 weeks is a very reasonable time frame for all but the christian crazies. Many women don't even know they're pregnant at 6 weeks.
It's just the usual insanity from conservatives. The sad hypocrisy here is that conservatives don't like poor black people and don't like to help poor people generally, and yet their absurd, extremist abortion policies will just result in poor women having /more/ babies who will not be raised properly and who will grow up on the street and with problems--and the conservative/GOP response to people with problems is, tough luck. And then they'll also complain about crime. And of course the same anti-abortion zombies who claim to care so much about embryos don't give a good god-damn about children murdered by guns in their schools--or any innocents killed by assault rifles and other guns. They reek of hypocrisy.

At six weeks they've missed or are very late on their period..so bs on not knowing.

 

[FLVOL_79]

I have to remain hopeful. I do think we have multiple generations now who have seen the damage for themselves. Sadly for many it's too late like the women in their 40's you hear about who realize they should have started a family.

It's interesting you just mentioned my old ways of thinking. 100% influenced by hedonism. As a younger man I was a big fan of Henry Miller, Hemingway, Bukowski, and a lot of other authors (Wilde's Dorian Gray was a favorite for awhile) who were rejecting traditional values in favor of hedonism. I eventually saw the error in my ways and I'm hopeful society as a whole will eventually too.

But I don't see many signs of any kind of reversal at this point, sadly.

I'd Bukowski related to bukake?

 

[WBO]

You keep ignoring why 6 weeks. And I’m not talking in circles at all. My responses are far more concise than your own.

When you consider it murder is highly relevant because the point is we all (democrats, republicans, etc) consider it murder at some point. Yet you’re only upset with one side for compromising on when they personally consider it murder vs legally. Why?

Edit: I noticed you asked a direct question that I didn't respond to. 1: is it alive at conception? Obviously. That is the entire reason abortion is a debated topic. Literally no one is arguing that a zygote/fetus is "not alive". Both sides agree to that. 2: If by murder you aren't using a legal definition but rather simply saying "isn't all abortion ending a human life?" than yes. Once again, that's why it's such a hotly debated topic. Neither of those things are debatable. They're both obvious facts.

The debate around abortion isn't "is it alive" or "are we killing it" but rather "at one point should you be able to". I'm not sure how you don't understand that. That's why I keep asking (and you keep ignoring) when you consider it to be murder.

But you are just trying to divert away from the issue. My feelings about abortion are irrelevant because I don't call it murder.

You say the debate isn't whether it is alive, but it is. The objections to abortion aren't based on when, they are based on a single issue, life. That's not my issue but it is for the anti-abortion crowd. So how do you reconcile saying it's OK to abort up to six weeks. It is still taking life under your rules.

Just admit your hypocrisy and move on. Your lipstick just doesn't make the pig look any better.

 

[Vol8188]

But you are just trying to divert away from the issue. My feelings about abortion are irrelevant because I don't call it murder.

You say the debate isn't whether it is alive, but it is. The objections to abortion aren't based on when, they are based on a single issue, life. That's not my issue but it is for the anti-abortion crowd. So how do you reconcile saying it's OK to abort up to six weeks. It is still taking life under your rules.

Just admit your hypocrisy and move on. Your lipstick just doesn't make the pig look any better.

You simply have a fundamental misunderstanding of the abortion debate as a whole. By every definition, a fetus and/or zygote is alive. That’s not the debatable part. It would be 100% unscientific to proclaim that either a fetus or zygote was not “alive”

Edit: out of curiousity can you find a single source other than yourself that claims a fetus is not alive?

 

[PKT_VOL]

The crux of the issue is personhood. What constitutes it and when does it begin. Once you answer those questions, legal oughts naturally follow.

If you aren't focused on personhood, you are wasting your time debating the issue.

 

[McDad]

The crux of the issue is personhood. What constitutes it and when does it begin. Once you answer those questions, legal oughts naturally follow.

If you aren't focused on personhood, you are wasting your time debating the issue.

You and Trut brought this up years ago. It changed how I saw the issue. Didn't change my opinion but it brought new understanding

 

[hog88]

You and Trut brought this up years ago. It changed how I saw the issue. Didn't change my opinion but it brought new understanding

It’s a good point and my problem is how to define personhood

 

[85SugarVol]

You keep ignoring why 6 weeks. And I’m not talking in circles at all. My responses are far more concise than your own.

When you consider it murder is highly relevant because the point is we all (democrats, republicans, etc) consider it murder at some point. Yet you’re only upset with one side for compromising on when they personally consider it murder vs legally. Why?

Edit: I noticed you asked a direct question that I didn't respond to. 1: is it alive at conception? Obviously. That is the entire reason abortion is a debated topic. Literally no one is arguing that a zygote/fetus is "not alive". Both sides agree to that. 2: If by murder you aren't using a legal definition but rather simply saying "isn't all abortion ending a human life?" than yes. Once again, that's why it's such a hotly debated topic. Neither of those things are debatable. They're both obvious facts.

The debate around abortion isn't "is it alive" or "are we killing it" but rather "at one point should you be able to". I'm not sure how you don't understand that. That's why I keep asking (and you keep ignoring) when you consider it to be murder.

What’s the relevance of 6 weeks?

 

[Vol8188]

What’s the relevance of 6 weeks?

Heartbeat

 

[McDad]

It’s a good point and my problem is how to define personhood

Correct, it isnt black and white. Full personhood with full rights currently doesnt happen until age 21.

 

[Vol8188]

The crux of the issue is personhood. What constitutes it and when does it begin. Once you answer those questions, legal oughts naturally follow.

If you aren't focused on personhood, you are wasting your time debating the issue.

I don’t disagree. But in order to even get there you need to first accept what you’re talking about is both alive and human.

 

[WBO]

OK I've got another topic. Seems there are a group of doctors located in the Northeast who have formed an entity that will ship abortion pills to states where they are outlawed The doctors are all from states that have "shield" laws than prevent law enforcement in those states from arresting and extraditing someone to the state seeking to enforce its statutes against the pill. So the state to which the pills are shipped can't enforce its laws against the prescribing physician.

So I'm guessing this puts you states rights guys in a bit of a quandary.

 

[Vol8188]

OK I've got another topic. Seems there are a group of doctors located in the Northeast who have formed an entity that will ship abortion pills to states where they are outlawed The doctors are all from states that have "shield" laws than prevent law enforcement in those states from arresting and extraditing someone to the state seeking to enforce its statutes against the pill. So the state to which the pills are shipped can't enforce its laws against the prescribing physician.

So I'm guessing this puts you states rights guys in a bit of a quandary.

Not even a little. Just don’t get on an airplane or ever leave that state

The real question is are you going to be upset when a Republican is president and the interstate commerce clause is used to justify charging them federally

 

[McDad]

OK I've got another topic. Seems there are a group of doctors located in the Northeast who have formed an entity that will ship abortion pills to states where they are outlawed The doctors are all from states that have "shield" laws than prevent law enforcement in those states from arresting and extraditing someone to the state seeking to enforce its statutes against the pill. So the state to which the pills are shipped can't enforce its laws against the prescribing physician.

So I'm guessing this puts you states rights guys in a bit of a quandary.

No quandary for me. Clever approach. Unfortunately for the buyer, drug laws punish the user even if the supplier is unknown.

 

[Vol8188]

No quandary for me. Clever approach. Unfortunately for the buyer, drug laws punish the user even if the supplier is unknown.

They also risk losing their medical license

 

[RikidyBones]

12 weeks is a very reasonable time frame for all but the christian crazies. Many women don't even know they're pregnant at 6 weeks.
It's just the usual insanity from conservatives. The sad hypocrisy here is that conservatives don't like poor black people and don't like to help poor people generally, and yet their absurd, extremist abortion policies will just result in poor women having /more/ babies who will not be raised properly and who will grow up on the street and with problems--and the conservative/GOP response to people with problems is, tough luck. And then they'll also complain about crime. And of course the same anti-abortion zombies who claim to care so much about embryos don't give a good god-damn about children murdered by guns in their schools--or any innocents killed by assault rifles and other guns. They reek of hypocrisy.

So let me get this right, you think that the camp advocating for black babies to not be killed hates poor black people while the camp you're in wants the continuation and expansion of the thing that kills more black people than anything else?

This is called projecting.

 

[Sandman 423]

So let me get this right, you think that the camp advocating for black babies to not be killed hates poor black people while the camp you're in wants the continuation and expansion of the thing that killsore black people that anything else?

This is called projecting.

Man, talk about an inconvenient fact.