Ron Paul Can't Win

Ron Paul actually answers a very broad swath of the American electorate. Probably enough on domestic policy to win.

The problem is the guy is completely delusional and naive on foreign policy. I have heard him speak. He truly believes that if we leave everyone else alone that they will leave us alone. He is naive enough to believe that there are no factions who simply want to impose domination on others. He seems to not understand that there are people in the world who hate us because of our freedom and prosperity regardless of what else we do. Our existence and success threatens their control of their own peoples.

I could buy it if he wanted to back out of everyone else's business but still protect ours and that of our established allies. I would certainly support a more "black and white" approach that says our friends are our friends and our enemies are not... and it is much better to be our friend than enemy.

However I am convinced that the guy would not protect us. If we did happen to survive the early implementation of his policies either he or a successor would be faced with a large war on the scale of all others brought on by appeasement.

Foreign policy during the post-Cold War era has definitely been screwed up by every administration. That does not mean Paul's option would work simply because it is different.

I'm not sure that is what I've heard him say but I think we can all see the logic. When I was in Afghanistan we were only in about 1/3 of the country. As we started expanding our influence we saw there were groups and villages that we recognized never caused any trouble so long as we left them alone. Whenever we entered one of their villages, they grabbed their AKs and fought to defend themselves. Not sure why, but for some reason we kept going back to those villages, getting in fights and taking casualties. Somewhere along the way we lost sight of the mission and thought we had to go in there until they stopped fighting, instead of just leaving them alone.

When I look at our alliances around the world I have to question why we spend what we spend to maintain them. I was stationed in Japan, loved it and would go back in a heartbeat...but why do we still think we need to be there? Same with South Korea...nKorea has a million man army, South Korea has 1/2 million but has a quantifiable difference in quality--they can handle their own defense.

NATO was designed to defend against the Soviet Union but now it is fighting in Afghanistan? How did that happen?

So, as you can see, to me we have lost sight of the mission and are in many places that we have no business (meaning no national interest). Getting back on track with our defense and foreign policy for me is second only to real solutions for the economy. All the other major candidates talk about doing things the same way and even though I haven't decided on who I'm voting for yet, it seems to me that only Ron Paul is looking at viable solutions.
 
Iraq was based on faulty intel. It was a winnable war in spite of what the MSM worked hard to convey. They have a long history of civilization and an educated populace. Peaceful self rule prospects were good.

Afghanistan is a different story. There's a reason Cheney and Rumsfeld wanted limited involvement there... they LISTENED to their military leaders and experts. It is really a nation in name only. As you probably know, it is made up of tribes who fight each other unless an outsider shows up. It is a GREAT hideaway for terrorists and a quagmire for anyone who attempts to go in militarily. There was no winning move there... Obama getting more involved just made more of them resent us.

I agree with your other point. We are still in places that don't need us in part because we help their economies. But we can't just pretend that radical Islam is not in the business of expanding. They believe they have a mission from Allah to put the whole world under a single Islamic gov't by whatever means necessary. I am afraid that Paul vastly underestimates the threat.

FTR, I think Paul is staying in the race at this point to get his son the VP nod from Romney. To the extent he is taking votes they are probably coming from someone other than MR.

I'm actually OK with that. I line up much more with Rand than any of the candidates who ran in this cycle.
 
Ron Paul actually answers a very broad swath of the American electorate. Probably enough on domestic policy to win.

The problem is the guy is completely delusional and naive on foreign policy. I have heard him speak. He truly believes that if we leave everyone else alone that they will leave us alone. He is naive enough to believe that there are no factions who simply want to impose domination on others. He seems to not understand that there are people in the world who hate us because of our freedom and prosperity regardless of what else we do. Our existence and success threatens their control of their own peoples.

I could buy it if he wanted to back out of everyone else's business but still protect ours and that of our established allies. I would certainly support a more "black and white" approach that says our friends are our friends and our enemies are not... and it is much better to be our friend than enemy.

However I am convinced that the guy would not protect us. If we did happen to survive the early implementation of his policies either he or a successor would be faced with a large war on the scale of all others brought on by appeasement.

Foreign policy during the post-Cold War era has definitely been screwed up by every administration. That does not mean Paul's option would work simply because it is different.

Can you name one country that has ever attacked us that we did not meddle in their business first?
 
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Can you name one country that has ever attacked us that we did not meddle in their business first?

Whoa now RT. Everybody knows that if we adopt a non-interventionist foreign policy, bad guys from around the world will attack us because they are jealous of freedom and economic wealth.
 
Iraq was based on faulty intel. It was a winnable war in spite of what the MSM worked hard to convey. They have a long history of civilization and an educated populace. Peaceful self rule prospects were good.

Afghanistan is a different story. There's a reason Cheney and Rumsfeld wanted limited involvement there... they LISTENED to their military leaders and experts. It is really a nation in name only. As you probably know, it is made up of tribes who fight each other unless an outsider shows up. It is a GREAT hideaway for terrorists and a quagmire for anyone who attempts to go in militarily. There was no winning move there... Obama getting more involved just made more of them resent us.

I agree with your other point. We are still in places that don't need us in part because we help their economies. But we can't just pretend that radical Islam is not in the business of expanding. They believe they have a mission from Allah to put the whole world under a single Islamic gov't by whatever means necessary. I am afraid that Paul vastly underestimates the threat.

FTR, I think Paul is staying in the race at this point to get his son the VP nod from Romney. To the extent he is taking votes they are probably coming from someone other than MR.

I'm actually OK with that. I line up much more with Rand than any of the candidates who ran in this cycle.

My personal experience makes me have to disagree with the bolded part. When I was a CJTF-76 we had to fight with the OSD to bring in 4 155 howitzers to help cover the area around FOB Salerno. There was a group that continually crossed the Paki border to attack our border checkpoints and the FOB and our analysis said just a small increase in force and range would help. In the end, they approved and the additional artillery proved to be the key to winning a couple of pretty intense battles in that area.

After I left CJTF-76 and went to work in the Ministry of Defense, I sat in too many video conferences with the OSD, CENTCOM etc. where they continued to insist on sticking to their plan without listening to the folks on the ground. For example, they wanted to ensure the stability of Afghanistan after OEF and one means was to ensure the Afghans had a viable means of defending themselves. But, they insisted that all they would help build was a 70,000 man infantry force--no artillery, no armor, no helicopters, no logistics, no intel...you get the point. Just enough infantry to be worthless in that part of the world. It took a Russian IL-76 landing in Kabul with a bunch of military equipment for sale that made Rumsfeld change his mind, not anything we had to say.

Those are just two examples of where they didn't listen. The biggest was simply the re-prioritization of Iraq over Afghanistan. We had the moral high ground, a good plan and the momentum on our side in Afghanistan in 02-03 but suddenly resources started flowing toward Iraq. Even when Iraq was quiet in late 2003-early 04 and we were fighting some fairly large fights in Afghanistan, we saw resources diverted away from us to what we all knew was going to become a much worse situation in Iraq. In my view, the way we put more and more forces into Iraq after Spring of 03 (and to a large extent the way we deployed the forces) led to more and more casualties until finally the NCS and OSD gave up and asked us what we needed to do to really win that fight.

Had they listened to us and kept on track in Afghanistan, we could have gained enough stability to finish up things by 2006. We succeeded with the Presidential election in 2004, followed by the Parliamentary election in 2005. Another year and there would have been 70-100k combined armed force, plus between 300-500K trained police--certainly enough for Karzai to exert enough influence around the country for us to leave. Instead it became a holding mission as we had to fix Iraq...

Yes, Iraq was based on faulty intel but if the faulty intel gives you what you want to hear in the first place it is very hard to disregard it.

Regarding the Islamic expansion. I agree, this is well documented by many in the Salafist movement. There are stated goals to expand and regain the historic caliphate. If you look at the map, you will see on-going efforts in all of those countries that were once part of the Islamic world. It would almost seem that they think if they can keep us busy in certain areas then they can spread out without opposition in other areas...

all for now, have to get some work done.
 
Everybody "meddles" to protect their own interests. It's the way of mankind and I'm not sure why anybody should have to apologize for it much less take the blame for every military action we undertake.
 
Everybody "meddles" to protect their own interests. It's the way of mankind and I'm not sure why anybody should have to apologize for it much less take the blame for every military action we undertake.

We take meddling to the extreme, though. We have bases on every continent and in a military presence in dozens countries. We have a unique situation on our hands and we cannot afford to sustain it.
 
We take meddling to the extreme, though. We have bases on every continent and in a military presence in dozens countries. We have a unique situation on our hands and we cannot afford to sustain it.

I'll at least listen to that argument. What drives me crazy though is the Pollyanna approach that if we leave everyone alone, they'll leave us alone and our international interests will be just fine.
 
I'll at least listen to that argument. What drives me crazy though is the Pollyanna approach that if we leave everyone alone, they'll leave us alone and our international interests will be just fine.
Paul has even given up using that argument (although I feel that there is a certain level of truth to it). The argument that needs to be made now is that economically, we can't afford to be the world's policeman.

If the economical and morale argument against our current policy doesn't move you, then there is no choice but to continue on the path we are on right now and either go bankrupt or fight people halfway across the globe for interests that seemingly have little or no ipact on our daily way of life... and create new enemies in the process.
 
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Did anyone read this? Ron Paul Upsets Santorum In Missouri Caucuses Buoyed By Huge Youth Turnout @PolicyMic | Hamdan Azhar

The final outcome of Missouri’s lengthy caucus process may not be known for months. Early results, however, indicate that Ron Paul may well walk away from the state with the most delegates. Yesterday, his supporters overwhelmed the largest pooled caucus – Jackson county, responsible for sending 179 delegates to the state and congressional district conventions – winning over two-thirds of the available delegate slots. Mr. Paul also swept St. Louis, winning all of the city’s 36 delegates.

Missouri’s second and third largest caucuses, which convened last Saturday, reported similar results. In Greene county (111 delegates), Paul backers won nearly 60% of the delegate slots. In St. Charles (147 delegates), they so thoroughly dominated that the county GOP chair, allegedly a Santorum supporter, adjourned the meeting and called in the police to prevent the election from taking place.
...
Earlier this month, in Las Vegas, Paul supporters were elected to two-thirds of the board positions in the Clark County Republican Party after winning more county convention delegates than any other candidate at the caucuses – including Mitt Romney. Meanwhile, in Iowa, the state co-chair of the Paul campaign was elected as the chairman of the Iowa Republican Party in February. Last week, Paul supporters swept all the delegate slots in two of Seattle’s largest legislative district conventions.

odd
 

What's odd about it? Most Ron Paul supporters understand the process and are acting appropriately according to that process. What's going to be interesting is if the GOP ends up with a brokered convention and Ron has the most delegates on the 2nd round of voting.
 
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What's odd about it? Most Ron Paul supporters understand the process and are acting appropriately according to that process. What's going to be interesting is if the GOP ends up with a brokered convention and Ron has the most delegates on the 2nd round of voting.

To me the odd part is that RP can't win a primary but seems to do so well in caucuses. To me, it is an indictment of the lack of depth of support the other candidates have. What I mean is, Romney's support is wider, but shallower.

A brokered convention has a lot of intriguing possibilities. Low probabilities, but intriguing possibilities.
 

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