Russia brings the fight to ISIS in Syria!!!

#1,376
#1,376
Rasputin_Vol said:
Obama's policies???

Our policy over there at least since the mid-70's or even further back with Operation Ajax in Iran has done a lot to damage our reputation and ruin our goodwill.
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Probably true, but this documentary only focused on the actions and decisions from the last several years. I was surprised that a show on PBS would criticize Obama and his foreign policy the way it did.
 
#1,377
#1,377
red butler said:
Just because it goes back a long time doesn't mean a foreign power wasn't involved. The Arab Spring, supported by the Muslim Brotherhood, was full speed by 2010. You can usually tell if we support or oppose a coups by how quickly we recognize the new government.

Egypt - Morsi (Muslim Brotherhood) was elected in June 2012, by the end of June the US was seeking to "expand" relations with the Muslim Brotherhood. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/us-to-expand-relations-with-muslim-brotherhood/2011/06/30/AGVgppsH_story.html. Morsi was so bad the Egyptian Army had to take over so he couldn't establish an Islamic government.

Libya - Qaddafi was deposed in 2011 by the Muslim Brotherhood. That probably doesn't happen without NATOs help. Shortly after there were reports we were running weapons from Libya to Syria culminating in the Benghazi attack.

Clinton's own emails state Qatar and Saudi (our allies) are funding ISIS. She should know, her right hand seems to have ties to the Muslim Brotherhood.

We're talking about 3 of the secular, quasi democracies with relatively high standards of living in the Muslim world. Why would we not oppose them being overthrown by an organization that wants to install an Islamist government?
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so how "quickly" have we supported the new government in Syria? at best for your argument it was 3 years after that we started shipping weapons. hardly the two month turn around. and we had plenty of time before russia stepped in. and in the case we are supporting the secular (or at least non extremist) rebels/terrorists.

and again Syria's economy had been in the sh&**er back in 2006 too. 2006 GDP was less than half of 2012 GDP and thats with the violence in 12.
 
#1,378
#1,378
LouderVol said:
so how "quickly" have we supported the new government in Syria? at best for your argument it was 3 years after that we started shipping weapons. hardly the two month turn around. and we had plenty of time before russia stepped in. and in the case we are supporting the secular (or at least non extremist) rebels/terrorists.

and again Syria's economy had been in the sh&**er back in 2006 too. 2006 GDP was less than half of 2012 GDP and thats with the violence in 12.
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There isn't a new government in Syria. You're going to have to point me to the secular rebels. I suspect you'll have a difficult time pointing to one. Assad represents the secular option. If he falls, we will almost assuredly get an Islamic theocracy.

In regards to Syria's economy, it was never in the cards to be an economic powerhouse; the resources just aren't there. But according to your own link, Syria was experiencing modest GDP growth up until the war. It was even growing while our own economy had to be propped up by printing trillions of dollars to bail out the banks. During that same time it was paying off its debt. I'll post the graph from the site you linked.

syria-gdp.png


syria-government-debt-to-gdp.png
 
#1,379
#1,379
volprof said:
Syria a democratic and prosperous country before the war?

The mindless propaganda from our resident Kremlin allies never ceases to amaze.

I can't understand being that enslaved to a foreign nation.

The audacity to even call yourself an "American"! Just shameful.
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Thanks for reminding me why I avoid this thread like the plague. We can't be critical of our foreign policy without being called a Kremlin troll. While I'm sure Syria had its issues, I'm pretty sure I'd rather live in Assad's Syria (pre-war) than the Islamic theocracy that is sure to replace him if he falls.

You may think it's shameful to question our foreign policy and still call myself an American; I think it's shameful to not speak out when the overwhelming evidence says we're wrong. I understand you believe this is Assad/Putin's fault because he released some prisoners and some of the Jihadists are from Chechnya. I think that evidence is pretty weak, but you're also voting for Hillary in spite of tremendous evidence of corruption.... so I question your judgement.

Finally, I presume you have never been to any of these countries that are being destroyed. Since I have served in a handful and been embedded in the culture, I'll give you a little perspective. There will never be a prototypical western-style democracy in the Middle East... unless there are some major culture changes.
 
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#1,380
#1,380
red butler said:
Thanks for reminding me why I avoid this thread like the plague. We can't be critical of our foreign policy without being called a Kremlin troll. While I'm sure Syria had its issues, I'm pretty sure I'd rather live in Assad's Syria (pre-war) than the Islamic theocracy that is sure to replace him if he falls.

You may think it's shameful to question our foreign policy and still call myself an American; I think it's shameful to not speak out when the overwhelming evidence says we're wrong. I understand you believe this is Assad/Putin's fault because he released some prisoners and some of the Jihadists are from Chechnya. I think that evidence is pretty weak, but you're also voting for Hillary in spite of tremendous evidence of corruption.... so I question your judgement.

Finally, I presume you have never been to any of these countries that are being destroyed. Since I have served in a handful and been embedded in the culture, I'll give you a little perspective. There will never be a prototypical western-style democracy in the Middle East... unless there are some major culture changes.
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This thread and many others are tolerable when you put volprof on ignore..

He refuses to acknowlege anything that flies in the face of American utopianism and exceptionalism...resorting to the liberal playbook of smear campaigning with words like Kremlin troll, agent, comrade, conspiracy theorist, racist, bigot...

If it isn't obvious by now to most Americans that we should be questioning our government's practices, then God help us all...
 
#1,385
#1,385
volprof said:
Syria a democratic and prosperous country before the war?

The mindless propaganda from our resident Kremlin allies never ceases to amaze.

I can't understand being that enslaved to a foreign nation.

The audacity to even call yourself an "American"! Just shameful.
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They don't know what they're talking about. Russia spends so much money spreading **** around on the internet. Obviously some people on Volnation, of all places, believe it and are on an mission to reveal the evil laundry of the United States. I imagine these are the people I see in the comment sections of YouTube spreading anti-American thought. I wonder why they dont speak about what is known about Russia and China? They never will.
 
#1,386
#1,386
red butler said:
If you're referring to the Middle Eastern mindset, I completely agree it's jacked up. But we're competing with thousands of years of culture.
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You'll never understand the culture until you spend serious time studying Islam. I'm not talking about reading an article or even a book. I'm talking about studying the history of it from the 600's ad until now.
 
#1,388
#1,388
red butler said:
There isn't a new government in Syria. You're going to have to point me to the secular rebels. I suspect you'll have a difficult time pointing to one. Assad represents the secular option. If he falls, we will almost assuredly get an Islamic theocracy.

In regards to Syria's economy, it was never in the cards to be an economic powerhouse; the resources just aren't there. But according to your own link, Syria was experiencing modest GDP growth up until the war. It was even growing while our own economy had to be propped up by printing trillions of dollars to bail out the banks. During that same time it was paying off its debt. I'll post the graph from the site you linked.

syria-gdp.png


syria-government-debt-to-gdp.png
Click to expand...

this was exactly my point. Things were way way bad before. thats when people are going to be upset, thats where enough unrest builds up for there finally to be a rebellion. our own history proves this. even if things were on the up and up with the economy (oil industry only really, money was only going to one place and it wasn't the people). there was still the issue of the prisons and the old guard military members getting shafted 7 ways to Sunday.

If you can't see the secular side of the rebels/terrorists then you aren't looking back far enough and you are missing the move Assad made. He was getting his but kicked, because the rebels were his old military especially in the FSA.

Guide to the Syrian rebels - BBC News

go to that link and look up the rebel forces that were operating before ISIS, not a whole lot of them left, because they were secular. Assad brought the Islamists in so he could finally get help. remember he couldn't even get Russia to help until the Muslims showed up and started blowing people up in the world. a little too convenient, especially considering the lack of fighting between the two sides early on. Russia's early bombing campaign was also focused early on FSA and was notably flying over ISIS targets, even in cities where Assad had no presence, to get the FSA.

you have to admit that things have been going a lot better for Assad since this became a fight against the "Muslims".
 
#1,389
#1,389
Pacer92 said:
This thread and many others are tolerable when you put volprof on ignore..

He refuses to acknowlege anything that flies in the face of American utopianism and exceptionalism...resorting to the liberal playbook of smear campaigning with words like Kremlin troll, agent, comrade, conspiracy theorist, racist, bigot...

If it isn't obvious by now to most Americans that we should be questioning our government's practices, then God help us all...
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you need to start questioning all governments, not just our own.
 
#1,390
#1,390
red butler said:
Thanks for reminding me why I avoid this thread like the plague. We can't be critical of our foreign policy without being called a Kremlin troll. While I'm sure Syria had its issues, I'm pretty sure I'd rather live in Assad's Syria (pre-war) than the Islamic theocracy that is sure to replace him if he falls.

You may think it's shameful to question our foreign policy and still call myself an American; I think it's shameful to not speak out when the overwhelming evidence says we're wrong. I understand you believe this is Assad/Putin's fault because he released some prisoners and some of the Jihadists are from Chechnya. I think that evidence is pretty weak, but you're also voting for Hillary in spite of tremendous evidence of corruption.... so I question your judgement.

Finally, I presume you have never been to any of these countries that are being destroyed. Since I have served in a handful and been embedded in the culture, I'll give you a little perspective. There will never be a prototypical western-style democracy in the Middle East... unless there are some major culture changes.
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I wasn't even referring to you, and I have no idea why you interpreted my comment that way. I usually think you a fairly common sense opponent and welcome your input.

It's alarming to me though that you interpret my posts the way you do. Makes me wonder what in the world some of you construe from my posts sometimes. I have no idea, for example, why you keep running with the notion that I think Russia created ISIS. I've already responded to that and yet you still keep running with it. I also have no idea how you seem to have arrived at the assumption I'm an advocate of spreading Western-style democracy just anywhere. Of course I support our liberal world order and think it the best model currently going, but that doesn't mean I want to spread it just anywhere. It certainly doesn't mean I think just anywhere capable of transitioning to liberal democracy at the drop of the hat.

How in the world did you arrive at these interpretations of my posts?
 
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#1,391
#1,391
Pacer92 said:
This thread and many others are tolerable when you put volprof on ignore..

He refuses to acknowlege anything that flies in the face of American utopianism and exceptionalism...resorting to the liberal playbook of smear campaigning with words like Kremlin troll, agent, comrade, conspiracy theorist, racist, bigot...

If it isn't obvious by now to most Americans that we should be questioning our government's practices, then God help us all...
Click to expand...

Perhaps if you didn't have me on ignore you would read the posts I make in criticism of post-Cold War American foreign policy, particularly regarding NATO expansion, as it pertained to Russia. You would also read my numerous criticisms of those in the American government who advocate arming Ukraine, establishing a No Fly Zone in Syria, or removing Assad.

That's a whole heck of a lot more than you ever level against Russia, which is nothing. Not one single word of criticism, like your boy, Trump.

And you're still a Kremlin patsy who shouldn't even call himself an "American." Putin and his security services brethren have a word for Russians who behave regarding Russia like you do in regards to the US. It's not a very nice word.
 
#1,394
#1,394
https://southfront.org/syrian-war-r...re-assad-in-damascus-or-al-nusra-in-damascus/

The whole Syria must be “liberated,” Russian President Vladimir Putin’s spokesman announced. “There are just two options: Assad sitting in Damascus or the Nusra sitting in Damascus,” Dmitry Peskov said. The statement came at the day with the resumption of battle for Aleppo and followed the US State Demartment’s confirmation that the US-led coalition was not going to fight the Jabhat al-Nusra terrorist group because it was not the ‘goal’ in Syria.
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Turkey’s President Recep Tayyip Erdogan claimed that the Syrian city of Aleppo and the Iraqi city of Mosul belong to Turks, speaking during an opening ceremony for an educational institution in Bursa on October 23. Erdogan compared the way that Syrians and Iraqis have been driven away from homes because of the self-proclaimed Islamic State, to how Turkish people were once forced out from their cities. The speech indicates that Ankara is set to continue its military expansion in Syria and Iraq.
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#1,398
#1,398
Well, I'm convinced. If one random al-Nusra commander says so, then it must be true. The US is now a jihadist state.
 
#1,399
#1,399
#1,400
#1,400
LouderVol said:
lol. doesn't say anything about the US saying we won't fight them.

and his quote is pretty much what we have been saying this whole time.
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What's funny is you think we are supporting them and fighting them at the same time...that's funny..
 
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