School principal refuses to give teen's phone back to dad

[Boca Vol]

We need to relax... do you see how easy it is for some of you to turn a conversation about a cellphone (or even a knife) into a discussion about guns?

Lets bring it down just a tad with the melodrama.

This isn't a discussion about guns. It was an illustration to the people hiding behind the "property" stance. Technically, a parent say it's all his/her property. That was the point.

Where do you draw the line?

You can agree or disagree with the school's rule, but it's not the fault of the principal for enforcing the rule.

 

[hndog609]

You're missing the point. Yes, phones and guns are different. But not if you're simply talking about "property" and who owns what.

I'm sure the principal didn't write the policy, but it's her job to enforce it whether it makes sense to everyone or not.

Again, the child brought a phone to school, violated the policy, the phone was confiscated according to the policy, father gets mad at school.

I see a problem here and it isn't with the school.

You need to find a different analogy. That a firearm is confiscated under school policy is entirely superseded (actually made basically irrelevant) by the fact it's a crime. It's established law that items involved in a felony can be legally confiscated and held.

I wholly reject the idea that a school has the legal ability to seize and hold legal private property as a matter "policy". Punish the student according to "policy"? Fine. Different argument. Seize and withhold private property? Not just no but hell no.

 

[hog88]

This isn't a discussion about guns. It was an illustration to the people hiding behind the "property" stance. Technically, a parent say it's all his/her property. That was the point.

Where do you draw the line?

You can agree or disagree with the school's rule, but it's not the fault of the principal for enforcing the rule.

Legalities. It's against the law (in most places) to bring a gun to school. It's not against the law to bring a cell phone.

And drop the they are enforcing the rules BS. School systems produce more dumbazz rules than just about any other government entity, dumb rules need to be challenged.

 

[Boca Vol]

Legalities. It's against the law (in most places) to bring a gun to school. It's not against the law to bring a cell phone.

And drop the they are enforcing the rules BS. School systems produce more dumbazz rules than just about any other government entity, dumb rules need to be challenged.

Uncle!

It's not about a gun. It was for illustration purposes only.

The principal isn't at fault here. She's doing her job. There are a lot of dumb rules in all parts of society, corps, etc.

Do you blame a police officer for enforcing the local laws? Or do you vote for people that will make changes?

 

[Boca Vol]

You need to find a different analogy. That a firearm is confiscated under school policy is entirely superseded (actually made basically irrelevant) by the fact it's a crime. It's established law that items involved in a felony can be legally confiscated and held.

I wholly reject the idea that a school has the legal ability to seize and hold legal private property as a matter "policy". Punish the student according to "policy"? Fine. Different argument. Seize and withhold private property? Not just no but hell no.

They aren't keeping it forever. The phone will be returned.

 

[hog88]

Uncle!

It's not about a gun. It was for illustration purposes only.

The principal isn't at fault here. She's doing her job. There are a lot of dumb rules in all parts of society, corps, etc.

Do you blame a police officer for enforcing the local laws? Or do you vote for people that will make changes?

I do blame them to a certain extent, I don't blame and actually celebrate those who stand against stupidity.

 

[hndog609]

They aren't keeping it forever. The phone will be returned.

What, exactly, is keeping that from happening as soon as a parent shows up for said private property? If you say "policy" it's a worthless distinction and isn't time sensitive. You're withholding private property or you aren't.*

*I can even understand if the school makes a parent come pick it up as opposed to just giving it back to the kid. Once that happens though it's basically an illegal seizure as far as I'm concerned. In fact, I can't think of any other way of describing such an action.

 

[n_huffhines]

http://http://www.cnet.com/news/principal-refuses-to-give-teens-iphone-6-to-dad-offers-flip-phone-instead/

Thought this was interesting. Not sure if this is actually legal

Wait, you mean a mid-level manager in this government monopoly isn't responsive to customers?

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

The principal isn't at fault here. She's doing her job. There are a lot of dumb rules in all parts of society, corps, etc.

Do you blame a police officer for enforcing the local laws? Or do you vote for people that will make changes?

I do blame the cops for enforcing dumb laws, actually. I would expect politicians to be politicians, but cops have the discreation of hand cuffing someone or not on a possession charge or writing a speeding ticket. Jury nullification can kill bad laws and cops not enforcing dumb laws can serve the same purpose.

 

[vollygirl]

She is absolutely wrong.

Which high school?

 

[MyBloodRunnethOrange]

What, exactly, is keeping that from happening as soon as a parent shows up for said private property? If you say "policy" it's a worthless distinction and isn't time sensitive. You're withholding private property or you aren't.*

*I can even understand if the school makes a parent come pick it up as opposed to just giving it back to the kid. Once that happens though it's basically an illegal seizure as far as I'm concerned. In fact, I can't think of any other way of describing such an action.

Theft and larceny come to mind.

 

[Coug]

I've gone to dozens of meetings with my job and had people say beforehand to turn off their cellphones. Yet predictably, you will hear a cellphone go off at some point during the meeting or conference... even while VPs are talking. If the VP or manager at the place I earn my living doesn't confiscate cellphones for an indeterminate amount of time, why the hell should a school teacher?

That's a completely different situation. In schools you are dealing with kids/teens, at a job you're dealing with adults(at least at most jobs ). That doesn't mean however that the employer couldn't write up the employee for disobeying the rules.

 

[MyBloodRunnethOrange]

That's a completely different situation. In schools you are dealing with kids/teens, at a job you're dealing with adults(at least at most jobs ). That doesn't mean however that the employer couldn't write up the employee for disobeying the rules.

There's no reason why the school couldn't use detention or even supension for repeat offenders.

 

[Coug]

There's no reason why the school couldn't use detention or even supension for repeat offenders.

You could do either, but is it not easier and more direct to eliminate the problem by removing the phone? This way not only does the teen get to stay in school and not miss class, but now they actually get to pay attention instead of being distracted by a phone. I'm guessing this isn't the first time this particular student had trouble putting down their phone even after they were told multiple times to do so.

 

[g8terh8ter_eric]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8r-bdcvx8E[/youtube]

This doesn't even compare to the phone issue. The problem that people don't get with this video, is its because of guys like is on the video, that they implemented that policy of staying in line in the first place, regardless of walking or riding. I work in Crossville, and this guy was the talk of the town, until it was revealed that he's been at the school acting like this for sometime, trying to show that school policy doesn't apply to him or his kids like it does everyone else.

 

[g8terh8ter_eric]

I've read a lot of this thread, and I agree with the school taking the phone, and regardless of what the school thinks it can do, it should be returned to the parent, if the parent asks for it back. Any policy that contradicts the law, should not be enforceable by the school, and should immediately be repealed or amended, if its discovered that such a policy is not in the school's or parent's best interest.

That being said, if this happened to my kid, I would make them wait, and let them learn a little responsibility about how to handle themselves properly in school. Now, if the school never returned the phone, mishandled it, or read information in it that was private, I would absolutely make sure that my attorney paid a visit to them and explained what they just got themselves involved in. There are better ways than trying to be that bullheaded parent that thinks they can walk in to a school and run over teachers and administrators, just because they think they should be able to do so.

 

[volinSmyrna]

This kind of crap is exactly why public schools face the issues they face today.....parents enabling their kids!!!! The school had a policy....much like many other schools. If your phone is out, it gets taken up, then returned to you or a parent shortly thereafter. If you are a repeat violator of this rule, the phone is kept for the remainder of the year/semester.

When parents started going to schools and yelling "What have you done to my kid" instead of yelling at the kids "What have you done", the whole thing started to crumble. If the phone had been taken up before, why didn't the parent rip into the kid and ask them if they knew the consequences of them getting caught again? Quit enabling your kids! We are raising a generation that has NO respect for rules and authority for this very reason, and it scares the crap out of me.

 

[hndog609]

the phone is kept for the remainder of the year/semester.

The phone is PROPERTY that does not belong to the school and to withhold it is, pretty much definitionally, illegal seizure. This isn't arguing a nuance...it's seizing and holding private property without legal authority to do so.

 

[volinSmyrna]

The phone is PROPERTY that does not belong to the school and to withhold it is, pretty much definitionally, illegal seizure. This isn't arguing a nuance...it's seizing and holding private property without legal authority to do so.

Again, it was a repeat offense. The consequences of what would happen should it happen again would have been made clear to the student and then to the parent when they picked it up after the prior offenses....as well as a likely signed code of conduct.

So what should happen? Give the phone to the parents over and over again just to have them turn around and hand it right back to the kid, who would probably break the rule again? Doing this effectively neuters the school from enforcing their rules. Which is why we have a society of kids that think the rules don't apply to them.....wonder where they get that?

 

[hndog609]

Again, it was a repeat offense. The consequences of what would happen should it happen again would have been made clear to the student and then to the parent when they picked it up after the prior offenses....as well as a likely signed code of conduct.

So what should happen? Give the phone to the parents over and over again just to have them turn around and hand it right back to the kid, who would probably break the rule again? Doing this effectively neuters the school from enforcing their rules. Which is why we have a society of kids that think the rules don't apply to them.....wonder where they get that?

Private property is off the table...simple as that. There is no "policy" that should ever even be considered that allows a school to withhold private property from a rightful owner. (I'm not talking about detained during school hours)

You want to punish the kid? Go ahead. If your knickers are that much in a bunch expel the kid and be done with it. Regardless you don't have a school decide when it can keep or return private property from a rightful owner at their largesse.

 

[volinSmyrna]

Private property is off the table...simple as that. There is no "policy" that should ever even be considered that allows a school to withhold private property from a rightful owner. (I'm not talking about detained during school hours)

You want to punish the kid? Go ahead. If your knickers are that much in a bunch expel the kid and be done with it. Regardless you don't have a school decide when it can keep or return private property from a rightful owner at their largesse.

How about simply not breaking the rule? Again, we are placing the blame on the school instead of the kid. There shouldn't have to be a rule, I get it....but unfortunately there have to be.

My "knickers" are just fine. If this was my kid, I cancel his/her phone line so I'm not paying for it anymore, and then when the phone is returned I sell it on ebay. However, if this were really my kid the first time it got taken up, I'd take the phone myself and they wouldn't have it Monday-Friday anymore. There is a phone in the office if they need to contact me for any urgent requests. But that goes back to they whole codling/enabling kids thing. If the kid sees his/her parent go berate their teacher or principal to get their way, they think that this is acceptable behavior and begin modeling it themselves....which goes right to the heart of my issue.

 

[utvolpj]

It's a good lesson for all involved. Just wait until that teen gets behind the wheel and just can't stay of the phone

If you know the policy and still choose to violate it multiple times them you deserve the punishment. Pretty simple

 

[hndog609]

How about simply not breaking the rule? Again, we are placing the blame on the school instead of the kid. There shouldn't have to be a rule, I get it....but unfortunately there have to be.

My "knickers" are just fine. If this was my kid, I cancel his/her phone line so I'm not paying for it anymore, and then when the phone is returned I sell it on ebay. However, if this were really my kid the first time it got taken up, I'd take the phone myself and they wouldn't have it Monday-Friday anymore. There is a phone in the office if they need to contact me for any urgent requests. But that goes back to they whole codling/enabling kids thing. If the kid sees his/her parent go berate their teacher or principal to get their way, they think that this is acceptable behavior and begin modeling it themselves....which goes right to the heart of my issue.

I'm not sure where the disconnect is here. My observation about this has nothing (zero, zilch, nada) to do with what should or shouldn't happen to a student pursuant to behavioral infractions. That's an entirely separate argument. If we were actually discussing that topic it's likely we'd share a great deal of common ground. That is not what is being discussed here.

A school does not have legal authority to impound legal private property. Withhold from a student? Fine. Withhold from an adult trying to recover private property? That is absolute, unmitigated, indisputably and irrefutably an act of illegal seizure. It's not even a gray area.

 

[utvolpj]

A school does not have legal authority to impound legal private property. Withhold from a student? Fine. Withhold from an adult trying to recover private property? That is absolute, unmitigated, indisputably and irrefutably an act of illegal seizure. It's not even a gray area.

Even if they signed the policy outlining that as a possible punishment?

It's 2 weeks. This is simply not a big deal and maybe the dad will learn something too

 

[hndog609]

Even if they signed the policy outlining that as a possible punishment?

It's 2 weeks. This is simply not a big deal and maybe the dad will learn something too

I don't like the precedent...at all...even a little bit.

I mentioned it earlier but I don't mind at all making the parent come pick it up themselves. I would hope having to do that would get pretty tiresome. Also, how is the only appropriate action the school can take something it shouldn't have any legal business doing in the first place?

And you're right, it isn't a big deal, have the school come up with something other than seizing private property for punishment.