School Shootings

[508mikey]

weeding out illegals is a start - deport them all now

 

[BowlBrother85]

The slaughter of innocents is unavoidable in any civilized society. We already have laws that are designed to make it more difficult certain people from purchasing firearms.

The issue is that it’s still not possible to prevent them from getting a weapon, nor can any law make it impossible.

Perhaps it is but it's time to confront the reality that the problem of mass/spree murders is more common in the United States than it is in any other 'civilized society' in the world and it's getting worse. Four of the top 6 deadliest spree shootings in U.S history have occurred just since April of 2007 (beginning with the Virginia Tech massacre and 3 of them have just been since Mandalay Bay in Vegas on October 1st also including the Newtown, Connecticut shootings at Sandy Hook Elementary, Pulse Nightclub in Orlando and First Baptist Church in Southerland Springs, Texas).

 

[508mikey]

One truth you’ll never hear spoken is that our broken educational system plays a role in this.

Its been broken for over 60 years

 

[DancingOutlaw]

Perhaps it is but it's time to confront the reality that the problem of mass/spree murders is more common in the United States than it is in any other 'civilized society' in the world and it's getting worse. Four of the top 6 deadliest spree shootings in U.S history have occurred just since April of 2007 (beginning with the Virginia Tech massacre and 3 of them have just been since Mandalay Bay in Vegas on October 1st also including the Newtown, Connecticut shootings at Sandy Hook Elementary, Pulse Nightclub in Orlando and First Baptist Church in Southerland Springs, Texas).

Europe has been subjected to many recent acts of mass murder, with higher body counts. I would consider them pretty civilized.

 

[Vol_Doc]

Kinda makes you think we should be looking at people not the methods. Maybe even something really radical - like what's changed in our society since shootings like this became commonplace. But since laziness and willingness to blame something else rule the day, I'm guessing guns, cars, knives, etc will be the usual suspects and societal issues will skate ... again. Politicians, amateur shrinks, and social advocates who polarize society couldn't possible have a role.

Our society places a taboo on mental illness and far too little attention and funding go toward its diagnosis and treatment as a result. Most of these school shooters are troubled youth with signs of mental instability or illness that have been ignored.

 

[BowlBrother85]

Europe has been subjected to many recent acts of mass murder, with higher body counts. I would consider them pretty civilized.

No single country in Europe has had as many separate mass/spree murders involving the deaths of more than 12 people since April of 2007 as the United States has had. That is a fact.

 

[zeppelin128]

No single country in Europe has had as many separate mass/spree murders involving the deaths of more than 12 people since April of 2007 as the United States has had. That is a fact.

Don't you be bringing facts up in here. This isn't an unusual thing mostly unique to America..

 

[AM64]

I’m almost afraid to ask.....but....what change do you believe has attributed to this

I don't think we could ever narrow it down to one or maybe even just a few, but when I first started to school in the 50s the whole culture was significantly different, and kids had a lot more supervision and individual nurturing while growing up - like the village raising children. But I was a military brat and spent time with grandparents in rural areas, so maybe I'm simply not in tune with the rest of the country.

Changes in punishment in schools is different, so discipline isn't the same, and, therefore, neither can the attention required of a child to learn. I'm beginning to wonder if a parent can even safely paddle a child. So where's that leave you with "crime" and punishment if there is no punishment? No learning curve.

Social media and everybody has a cellphone pretty much insure kids have more access to the thoughts of other kids than parents and teachers. Of course that gets to today's views on education ...

Perhaps there is no shock value any more when you look at the constant immersion in today's events and in video games - does it all simply morph into one and kids have a hard time separating reality and fiction?

Of course bullying, but that's been a problem forever. It's maybe just easier to get back in a more dramatic way.

There's social engineering - to make us all equal, but the goal is not to make people equal - but instead empowering some at the expense of others. That surely couldn't breed any contempt.

Since I can't see us doing anything about any of those and plenty of other candidates, perhaps we just need to accept things like this as the new norm, but we won't do the unthinkable and acknowledge how we've changed society has a part to play - and that our "enlightened" change isn't necessarily for the better.

 

[AM64]

One truth you’ll never hear spoken is that our broken educational system plays a role in this.

It's right up there at the top of the list.

 

[Burhead]

The morphed from second amendment watch dog to gun peddlers. NO ONE IS ADVOCATING CONFISCATION OF GUNS.Sensible gun laws to make it harder for the people that shouldn't have guns to buy guns. The slaughter of the innocents is unacceptable in any civilized society.

For instance with the Sutherland Springs shooting the shooter should never have been allowed to purchase that firearm had the Air Force alerted the FBI about his dishonorable discharge. So here we have an instance where the law on the books would have theoretically stopped that shooting but government negligence allowed it to happen. Massive overreaction after 9/11 lead to the Patriot Act and other forms of government surveillance being passed to pacify the fears of the population. I'm sorry but I don't want people's emotional overreactions in the immediate aftermath of tragedies to dictate public policy.

 

[AM64]

No single country in Europe has had as many separate mass/spree murders involving the deaths of more than 12 people since April of 2007 as the United States has had. That is a fact.

No single European country has either the size or population or population diversity as the US either. A bigger barrel has a lot higher probability of containing bad apples - just that simple.

 

[Vol8188]

weeding out illegals is a start - deport them all now

I’m going to need some stats on that

 

[AM64]

For instance with the Sutherland Springs shooting the shooter should never have been allowed to purchase that firearm had the Air Force alerted the FBI about his dishonorable discharge. So here we have an instance where the law on the books would have theoretically stopped that shooting but government negligence allowed it to happen. Massive overreaction after 9/11 lead to the Patriot Act and other forms of government surveillance being passed to pacify the fears of the population. I'm sorry but I don't want people's emotional overreactions in the immediate aftermath of tragedies to dictate public policy.

When emotional response leads to a plethora of laws, edicts, regulation and all the enforcing parties, sometimes the important things get trampled and lost in the compliance stampede.

 

[Vol8188]

Perhaps it is but it's time to confront the reality that the problem of mass/spree murders is more common in the United States than it is in any other 'civilized society' in the world and it's getting worse. Four of the top 6 deadliest spree shootings in U.S history have occurred just since April of 2007 (beginning with the Virginia Tech massacre and 3 of them have just been since Mandalay Bay in Vegas on October 1st also including the Newtown, Connecticut shootings at Sandy Hook Elementary, Pulse Nightclub in Orlando and First Baptist Church in Southerland Springs, Texas).

Fix education then.

 

[tumscalcium]

Fix education then.

How?

 

[Vol8188]

No single country in Europe has had as many separate mass/spree murders involving the deaths of more than 12 people since April of 2007 as the United States has had. That is a fact.

Because no single country in Europe comes close to our population. Their countries are the same size as our states, with the exception of Russia.

 

[hog88]

No single country in Europe has had as many separate mass/spree murders involving the deaths of more than 12 people since April of 2007 as the United States has had. That is a fact.

Most of their single countries are no bigger than Alaska. Not a good comparison.

 

[BowlBrother85]

No single European country has either the size or population or population diversity as the US either. A bigger barrel has a lot higher probability of containing bad apples - just that simple.

Even counting all of Europe, they have not had 14 separate mass shootings involving the deaths of 9 or more people since 2007 as the United States has had.

1) Las Vegas 2017 (59 deaths)
2) Orlando, Fla 2016 (49 deaths)
3) Virginia Tech 2007 (33 deaths)
4) Newtown, CT 2012 (27 deaths)
5) Sutherland Springs, TX (26 deaths)
6) South Florida 2018 (17 deaths)
7) San Bernardino, CA 2015 (14 deaths)
8) Binghamton 2009 (13 deaths)
9) Fort Hood 2009 (13 deaths)
10) Washington Navy Yard 2013 (12 deaths)
11) Aurora movie theater shooting 2012 (12 deaths)
12) Geneva County massacre 2009 (10 deaths)
13) Umqua Community College shooting 2015 (9 deaths)
14) Charleston, SC church shooting - Dylann Roof 2015 (9 deaths)

That adds up to 304 deaths in these 14 mass murder shootings.

 

[BowlBrother85]

Most of their single countries are no bigger than Alaska. Not a good comparison.

Even including all of Europe they have not had 14 separate shootings involving the deaths of 9 or more people (see my above post for the specific incidents) since 2007. This problem is deeper than just a matter of population.

 

[tumscalcium]

No single country in Europe has had as many separate mass/spree murders involving the deaths of more than 12 people since April of 2007 as the United States has had. That is a fact.

This isn’t the brightest argument. I like how you arbitrarily have a minimum death count if 12.

When Europe does it they go big. I looked at just three off the top of my head.

77 in Norway

86 (with a vehicle) in France

130 in France

+ many others of course

 

[AM64]

How?

Probably by beginning to think backwards to what last worked - like rolling back software upgrades.

We can't have schools of excellence that set the model for others. However, it's fair game to pull overall funding that hurts those schools to bring up poor performers - aim toward mediocrity. We can't have public education that does anything like tracking now - attempting to insure the best are challenged and the poorer students are given the support they need. Just teach to the middle and hope someone gets it even if some students are bored out of their minds and some are left wandering in the educational desert. Surely no students a sigma or two left or right of the middle of the educational curve might become disruptive elements because no one is teaching to their needs.

Then there are all the new educational models - remember "new math"? It was just a precursor.

 

[BowlBrother85]

This isn’t the brightest argument. I like how you arbitrarily have a minimum death count if 12.

When Europe does it they go big. I looked at just three off the top of my head.

77 in Norway

86 (with a vehicle) in France

130 in France

+ many others of course

If you don't want to see this as an epidemic, fine. 14 separate incidents since 2007 involving over 300 deaths (including over 50 children) says something very different to me. This is a problem and it's getting worse.

 

[tumscalcium]

If you don't want to see this as an epidemic, fine. 14 separate incidents since 2007 involving over 300 deaths (including over 50 children) says something very different to me. This is a problem and it's getting worse.

The three I mentioned had almost the amount of deaths as all the ones you mentioned, if numbers is your thing.

It’s getting worse because of people. Not guns. There’s been access to guns for several hundred years. We are becoming a crap country with crap culture.

Hell, you can even link it to “Social Progress” if you want. **** behavior never used to be tolerated.

 

[BowlBrother85]

The three I mentioned had almost the amount of deaths as all the ones you mentioned, if numbers is your thing.

It’s getting worse because of people. Not guns. There’s been access to guns for several hundred years. We are becoming a crap country with crap culture.

Hell, you can even link it to “Social Progress” if you want. **** behavior never used to be tolerated.

The number of separate incidents "is my thing". This problem cannot simply be dismissed as isolated incidents anymore... these mass/spree killings are occurring with more regularity and yes, they have also been much more deadly since 2007. The incidents you have cited were more along the lines of orchestrated terrorist attacks by multiple assailants (not that I'm minimizing the horrific nature of that carnage - I've been speaking more about the problem of the lone lunatic gunman which is very unique to the United States).

 

[AM64]

The number of separate incidents "is my thing". This problem cannot simply be dismissed as isolated incidents anymore... these mass/spree killings are occurring with more regularity and yes, they have also been much more deadly since 2007. The incidents you have cited were more along the lines of orchestrated terrorist attacks by multiple assailants (not that I'm minimizing the horrific nature of that carnage - I've been speaking more about the problem of the lone lunatic gunman which is very unique to the United States).

We on the other hand haven't started a couple of world wars and other disputes killing millions in the process. Perhaps Europe just does it differently, or maybe the lack of manpower ...