Sebelius? You guys must be proud.

#26
#26
rjd970 said:
I don't know, and quite frankly, neither do you.
I do know that late term abortions are killing a person with a working nervous system, brain, heart, and responsive characteristics.

I also know that a clump of cells right after conception is just that, a clump of cells. This idea that the couple haven't even lit their cigarettes yet and there is already a third person in the room is ridiculous.
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my mind IS made up about when life begins, why? the egg and sperm have made contact and the reaction has begun, everything that has started leads to a life, but thats my POV, and if someone tells me I am wrong the eff them that is my belief, and some liberal baby killer isnt gonna change my mind. you can throw whatever facts you want at me, and im still going to remain resolute on this issue, after all it seems that all the people supporting abortion dont have to worry about getting aborted
 
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#27
#27
rjd970 said:
I just think the black and white answers both extremes label this issue as is wrong. There is a lot of grey here, and anybody that claims to know exactly when consciousness takes over and human life takes hold is being extremely dogmatic.
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Good for you!

You are not as inhuman as I thought you!

:hi:
 
#28
#28
look, it's as simple as this: living things grow. And once these two cells become 3, then 4 and so forth and GROW into a fully developed baby, life has begun at conception. If it is not a live, why does it grow? All unliving matter is what it is, and will not grow into something more.
 
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#29
#29
GASOUTHERNVOL said:
my mind IS made up about when life begins, why? the egg and sperm have made contact and the reaction has begun, everything that has started leads to a life, but thats my POV, and if someone tells me I am wrong the eff them that is my belief, and some liberal baby killer isnt gonna change my mind.
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As far as the bolded part, I would disagree. Statistics show only about half of such fertilizations lead to viable life. Others end in miscarriages, most of which the mother doesn't even know about because it happens so early.

And if that is your justification, and you believe in an all powerful God, then the only logical conclusion would be that he does nothing to stop such miscarriages, making him the most prolific abortionist in history. But we are talking logic and religion here, which rarely overlap. I understand this, and you can spare me the theological gymnastics used to explain.

GASOUTHERNVOL said:
you can throw whatever facts you want at me, and im still going to remain resolute on this issue
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Both the extreme pro-choice and pro-life stances follow this same close-minded, dogmatic hold on something they want to believe in because they want to, not because there is any good reason. You and your pro-life brothers and sisters can take comfort in the fact that your opposition thinks the exact same way.
 
#30
#30
rjd970 said:
As far as the bolded part, I would disagree. Statistics show only about half of such fertilizations lead to viable life. Others end in miscarriages, most of which the mother doesn't even know about because it happens so early.

And if that is your justification, and you believe in an all powerful God, then the only logical conclusion would be that he does nothing to stop such miscarriages, making him the most prolific abortionist in history. But we are talking logic and religion here, which rarely overlap. I understand this, and you can spare me the theological gymnastics used to explain.



Both the extreme pro-choice and pro-life stances follow this same close-minded, dogmatic hold on something they want to believe in because they want to, not because there is any good reason. You and your pro-life brothers and sisters can take comfort in the fact that your opposition thinks the exact same way.
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1.) Don't follow
 
#31
#31
Gentleman Jack said:
look, it's as simple as this: living things grow. And once these two cells become 3, then 4 and so forth and GROW into a fully developed baby, life has begun at conception. If it is not a live, why does it grow? All unliving matter is what it is, and will not grow into something more.
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Are you talking human life? I fail to see how 4 cells can be human.

It sounds like to me that you using the "potential of life" argument. Any cell in the human body with a nucleus is a potential human, given our advances in genetics, and is biologically no different than any one of the blastocytic cells.
 
#32
#32
rjd970 said:
Are you talking human life? I fail to see how 4 cells can be human.

It sounds like to me that you using the "potential of life" argument. Any cell in the human body with a nucleus is a potential human, given our advances in genetics, and is biologically no different than any one of the blastocytic cells.
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i'd have to agree. as you said there are many fertilized eggs that don't attach to the uterus. by this definition anyone using an IUD is commiting murder.
 
#33
#33
OrangeEmpire said:
1.) Don't follow
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If one believes in God, then it follows that he doesn't stop miscarriages, because in fact, they do happen. At the very least, you would have to believe he guided over the design of a flawed development process that allows this to happen to seemingly sinless embryos and fetuses.

If one wants to believe life begins at the very moment of conception, and believes in God, then this is the only logical conclusion as to why miscarriages happen. We certainly can't do anything about it.
 
#34
#34
rjd970 said:
If one believes in God, then it follows that he doesn't stop miscarriages, because in fact, they do happen. At the very least, you would have to believe he guided over the design of a flawed development process that allows this to happen to seemingly sinless embryos and fetuses.

If one wants to believe life begins at the very moment of conception, and believes in God, then this is the only logical conclusion as to why miscarriages happen. We certainly can't do anything about it.
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Wow, you really hate people of faith.

I am sorry.

:eek:k:
 
#37
#37
rjd970 said:
I just think the black and white answers both extremes label this issue as is wrong. There is a lot of grey here, and anybody that claims to know exactly when consciousness takes over and human life takes hold is being extremely dogmatic.
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Which is exactly why i believe we should err on the side of caution, at least until we have a clearly defined idea of when a living being becomes a living being.
 
#38
#38
rjd answer me this, how is that whenever someone takes a stance that is in opposite view of the liberals it is close minded? in fact in your spill were you not being close minded for bashing my beliefs?
'
 
#40
#40
rjd970 said:
If one believes in God, then it follows that he doesn't stop miscarriages, because in fact, they do happen. At the very least, you would have to believe he guided over the design of a flawed development process that allows this to happen to seemingly sinless embryos and fetuses.

If one wants to believe life begins at the very moment of conception, and believes in God, then this is the only logical conclusion as to why miscarriages happen. We certainly can't do anything about it.
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Calling anyone that allows a miscarriage to happen an abortionist is pretty crude. It is little more than regurgitated pro-choice propaganda.
 
#41
#41
OrangeEmpire said:
How would we do that?
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I'm not sure, it would seem to me that it would be on the shoulders of science to decide. We already have laws on the books against murder, in order to to allow abortion it would seem to me that the first logical step would have been to have a consensus as to when life begins.
 
#42
#42
KB5252 said:
I'm not sure, it would seem to me that it would be on the shoulders of science to decide. We already have laws on the books against murder, in order to to allow abortion it would seem to me that the first logical step would have been to have a consensus as to when life begins.
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Stupid question, say some fool shoots a pregnant lady, what is that fool charged with?
 
#47
#47
OrangeEmpire said:
What is the legal test then?
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I don't know, I leave that for those with more expertise in the matter to deal with. My whole point here is that abortion was made legal long before any reasonable scientific consensus was achieved concerning the beginning of life. That in turn allowed this rift between supporters and opponents. Do we have a good consensus about the matter today? I do not know.
 
#48
#48
KB5252 said:
I don't know, I leave that for those with more expertise in the matter to deal with. My whole point here is that abortion was made legal long before any reasonable scientific consensus was achieved concerning the beginning of life. That in turn allowed this rift between supporters and opponents. Do we have a good consensus about the matter today? I do not know.
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actually yah, a majority of Americans are against abortion, 60+% are against it, however most politicians in congress dont truly serve their constituants, and they use isolated cases to raise issues, and the media takes it and runs with it like flojo
 
#49
#49
KB5252 said:
Which is exactly why i believe we should err on the side of caution, at least until we have a clearly defined idea of when a living being becomes a living being.
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So you would be against stem cell research, and telling a quadripalegic that it is morally ethical to stop research that could potentially find a cure for him, because we need to error on the side of caution that 4 cells might be human?
 
#50
#50
GASOUTHERNVOL said:
actually yah, a majority of Americans are against abortion, 60+% are against it, however most politicians in congress dont truly serve their constituants, and they use isolated cases to raise issues, and the media takes it and runs with it like flojo
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Yet 75% opposed president Bush's first veto on federal funding of stem cell research. Combine that with your 60% number. What does that say about the middle ground on this issue?
 
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