Sebelius? You guys must be proud.

[rjd970]

rjd answer me this, how is that whenever someone takes a stance that is in opposite view of the liberals it is close minded? in fact in your spill were you not being close minded for bashing my beliefs?
'

You obviously didn't read my post more than once without kneejerk reacting.

In fact, I said the liberal pro-choice crowd that supports late-term abortions are practicing equal close-mindedness.

Read. Think. Counter.

And saying "I don't know" is infinitely more open-minded than "I have the answer and nothing you say can change my mind".

 

[GASOUTHERNVOL]

You obviously didn't read my post more than once without kneejerk reacting.

In fact, I said the liberal pro-choice crowd that supports late-term abortions are practicing equal close-mindedness.

Read. Think. Counter.

And saying "I don't know" is infinitely more open-minded than "I have the answer and nothing you say can change my mind".

im not saying that im open minded on the issue, ill go ahead and tell you im close minded, IMO Murder is Murder,

 

[KB5252]

So you would be against stem cell research, and telling a quadripalegic that it is morally ethical to stop research that could potentially find a cure for him, because we need to error on the side of caution that 4 cells might be human?

I have not really looked into the stem cell issue that much but it is my understanding that there are other sources for stem cells. Are we to allow abortions for the advancement of science and medicine? That opens up another area of debate. Where do you draw the line for scientific research, if abortions are allowed to advance medicine why not take a page from the Nazi experimentation book as well, after all it might benefit that man as well.

 

[rjd970]

Calling anyone that allows a miscarriage to happen an abortionist is pretty crude. It is little more than regurgitated pro-choice propaganda.

How so? Especially in light of the fact that the same mode of belief has the same God directing the design of the flawed process. Why have a process that indescriminately kills innocent embryo's and cells?

 

[rjd970]

I have not really looked into the stem cell issue that much but it is my understanding that there are other sources for stem cells. Are we to allow abortions for the advancement of science and medicine? That opens up another area of debate. Where do you draw the line for scientific research, if abortions are allowed to advance medicine why not take a page from the Nazi experimentation book as well, after all it might benefit that man as well.

This is all an utter straw man.

The quadripalegic scenario was to illustrate the moral outcome of placing real human being that are suffering below a clump of 150 cells. It is my understanding that advances in the research allow for other methods to obtain stem cells. I welcome this, whatever gets the pro-lifers on the compassionate side of this issue is good.

And where do you draw the line for research? I don't know, but I do know there is no way for a stem cell (or the blastocyst they are harvested from, rather) to have any human experiences, feel pain, or experience consciousness.

 

[rjd970]

im not saying that im open minded on the issue, ill go ahead and tell you im close minded, IMO Murder is Murder,

Murder is murder, I agree.

I disagree with you that killing 4 cells is equivalent to killing a human being.

And it's nice to know you embrace your close-mindedness.

 

[GASOUTHERNVOL]

Murder is murder, I agree.

I disagree with you that killing 4 cells is equivalent to killing a human being.

And it's nice to know you embrace your close-mindedness.

its amazing how thin the line is in being firm in a belief and close minded, if we were of like minded view, i would be firm, since i am opposite, i am close minded, nice

 

[droski]

i don't understand why it isn't murder to freeze embryos and never use them, but it is murder to do tests on them.

 

[rjd970]

its amazing how thin the line is in being firm in a belief and close minded, if we were of like minded view, i would be firm, since i am opposite, i am close minded, nice

Didn't you just admit this and claim you were proud of it in your previous post?

And this isn't a firm belief thing. When you say things like "nothing you can say will change my mind" it comes across as very close-minded.

Show me the human characteristics of a fertilzed egg. Show me how it feels pain, experiences the world around it, and is making conscious decisions. I am open to what you have to say.

 

[GASOUTHERNVOL]

Didn't you just admit this and claim you were proud of it in your previous post?

And this isn't a firm belief thing. When you say things like "nothing you can say will change my mind" it comes across as very close-minded.
Show me the human characteristics of a fertilzed egg. Show me how it feels pain, experiences the world around it, and is making conscious decisions. I am open to what you have to say.

1)blatent sarcasm, and i guess having an unwavering ethical stance, sorry

2)how do you feel pain, you are nothing but a collection of cells

but if someone thinks im close minded because of my moral and ethical POV IDGARA

 

[KB5252]

This is all an utter straw man.
So was you bringing in this quadripalegic into a debate about defining when life begins.
The quadripalegic scenario was to illustrate the moral outcome of placing real human being that are suffering below a clump of 150 cells. It is my understanding that advances in the research allow for other methods to obtain stem cells. I welcome this, whatever gets the pro-lifers on the compassionate side of this issue is good.
I do not believe you can call a clump of cells life either. This isn't where my debate of abortion is directed.
And where do you draw the line for research? I don't know, but I do know there is no way for a stem cell (or the blastocyst they are harvested from, rather) to have any human experiences, feel pain, or experience consciousness.

I don't know the answer to this either. I do not think we should promote abortion for the sake of people with disabilities though, there are way to many other issues involved. It is certainly a complex issue.

See underlined above.

 

[KB5252]

How so? Especially in light of the fact that the same mode of belief has the same God directing the design of the flawed process. Why have a process that indescriminately kills innocent embryo's and cells?

Allowing nature to run it's course is much different from terminating cells, ripping a fetus from it's mother, or crushing the skull of unborn baby. There is a big difference and I certainly believe you are intelligent enough to understand this.

 

[GASOUTHERNVOL]

Allowing nature to run it's course is much different from terminating cells, ripping a fetus from it's mother, or crushing the skull of unborn baby. There is a big difference and I certainly believe you are intelligent enough to understand this.

naww thats just close minded, according to liberals.

(makes perfect sense in reality)

 

[KB5252]

Murder is murder, I agree.

I disagree with you that killing 4 cells is equivalent to killing a human being.

And it's nice to know you embrace your close-mindedness.

I cannot speak for everyone but a few cells is not what I object to, my objections on abortion begin with those performed much later in the process.

 

[BigPapaVol]

Are you talking human life? I fail to see how 4 cells can be human.

It sounds like to me that you using the "potential of life" argument. Any cell in the human body with a nucleus is a potential human, given our advances in genetics, and is biologically no different than any one of the blastocytic cells.

I'm certainly no pro-lifer, but this is absolute silliness. Biologically no different? Why the continual splits and growth?

I don't need modern science and genetics to help a fertilized egg become a human. Anything else, I have to help. That is an enormous difference.

As of right now, only very specific organisms can continue to grow to become a human. Whether you or anyone else considers that life is immaterial. We're talking about knowingly destroying that potential life. All of the God talk still doesn't change the fact that abortion is the premeditated act of destroying a potential human. The argument that all cells are potentially human is senseless in that context. Unaided, my skin isn't going to become another me. Even aided it's extremely remote even well into our future. That zygote, has enormous chance of becoming a human if left alone.

 

[droski]

I cannot speak for everyone but a few cells is not what I object to, my objections on abortion begin with those performed much later in the process.

+1

 

[BigPapaVol]

I cannot speak for everyone but a few cells is not what I object to, my objections on abortion begin with those performed much later in the process.

agreed. I generally have no opinion on the birth control / abortion debate until we get to late term stuff.

I have twins who were born at 25 weeks and I'll assure you aborting them would have absolutely been murder.

 

[UT IE 95]

I guess pro-lifers are against vasectomies too. No telling how many potential life swimmers have hit the closed tube on their journey to become a healthy person.

 

[BigPapaVol]

I guess pro-lifers are against vasectomies too. No telling how many potential life swimmers have hit the closed tube on their journey to become a healthy person.

I don't know. That's not the intentional act of destroying a formed zygote.

 

[OrangeEmpire]

So you would be against stem cell research, and telling a quadripalegic that it is morally ethical to stop research that could potentially find a cure for him, because we need to error on the side of caution that 4 cells might be human?

I will not mention the board members name, but he asked if if I could tell his dying father that I ban cell research to try and find a cure for his illness and that is something that I cannot do.

This is something I have changed my mind on.

 

[BigPapaVol]

I guess pro-lifers are against vasectomies too. No telling how many potential life swimmers have hit the closed tube on their journey to become a healthy person.

and for the record, I fully support you having a vasectomy.

 

[Brog]

There are already provisions in the law that would give doctors the authority to perform an abortion if needed in emergency to save a mothers life isn't there? Serious question.....

I think the problem was that passing the law that she vetoed would allow people to stop an abortion, even in an emergency situation.

 

[allvol123]

I will not mention the board members name, but he asked if if I could tell his dying father that I ban cell research to try and find a cure for his illness and that is something that I cannot do.

This is something I have changed my mind on.

Who has banned cell research in the first place?

 

[rjd970]

I'm certainly no pro-lifer, but this is absolute silliness. Biologically no different? Why the continual splits and growth?

I don't need modern science and genetics to help a fertilized egg become a human. Anything else, I have to help. That is an enormous difference.

The argument was about potential. With human help, your skin cells have the potential to become a human life. Does a blastocyst have more potential? Sure, I obviously understand that. Qualitatively speaking though, the blastocytic cells at that stage are no different in their ability to feel pain or remember experiences than any other cell in the human body.

Without further understanding of when consciousness actually arises, this issue should be looked at through the prism of suffering. And the only real compassionate conclusion to come to is that the little girl with burn marks on 80% of her body should trump the interests of a clump of 150 cells every single time. Especially when those clump of cells only reach their full potential roughly half the time.

 

[rjd970]

I cannot speak for everyone but a few cells is not what I object to, my objections on abortion begin with those performed much later in the process.

Agreed. I think most on here do.

The "life begins at conception argument" has no merit IMHO.