Senator Threatens Revolution if Roe v. Wade Overturned

#51
#51
LouderVol said:
I am fine with that. You are at least theoretically paying associated medical costs and some increase in food consumption.

See it wasnt difficult to come up with a better solution than abortion as birth control.
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I never argued abortion as birth control.
 
#52
#52
AshG said:
And the truth of the matter is that this is a complex, multifaceted issue that should be between a doctor and patient and guided by medical ethics.
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Which patient?

I dont get to decide with my doctor to kill a third party. Even if it impacts my health. Equality is a two way street.
 
#55
#55
LouderVol said:
Which patient?

I dont get to decide with my doctor to kill a third party. Even if it impacts my health. Equality is a two way street.
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"Carrying this pregnancy to term will kill you and the baby. I'm sorry, there's legally nothing I can do; go home and get your affairs in order. I'll prescribe some meds to make the end more comfortable."

That's the logical extension of what you just said.
 
#56
#56
AshG said:
"Carrying this pregnancy to term will kill you and the baby. I'm sorry, there's legally nothing I can do; go home and get your affairs in order. I'll prescribe some meds to make the end more comfortable."

That's the logical extension of what you just said.
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Except it isnt the extension.

I asked the question, which patient? There are two. You are advocating for one, I am advocating for both. If one is threatening the other it's a simple matter of self defense. But in our society only one of the patients is allowed to defend itself from the other. So there is no equality to what you preach. Heck, the baby is even denied advocacy or representation from family (dad).
 
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#57
#57
At least require a second opinion from a doctor whose patient is solely the baby. If they agree the baby is a significant danger to life or limb/organ of mom then abortion can be allowed. At least give the baby a chance or someone to speak for them before the matter is decided.
 
#58
#58
LouderVol said:
At least require a second opinion from a doctor whose patient is solely the baby. If they agree the baby is a significant danger to life or limb/organ of mom then abortion can be allowed. At least give the baby a chance or someone to speak for them before the matter is decided.
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This is what it comes down to for me. I’m not anti abortion across the board there are obvious medical cases where its warranted. I’m just for strong advocacy rights for the unborn child. Give them a voice which they don’t have yet in determining their future.
 
#59
#59
LouderVol said:
So there is no equality to what you preach. Heck, the baby is even denied advocacy or representation from family (dad).
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I see and respect your position on this, but I feel like you're coloring what I'm saying through the lens of your perspective.

What I "preach" is that this is a really complex topic, no matter how badly we wish that it wasn't; dealing with it requires nuance and care rather than an iron hammer approach.

When mom is cut upon on the operating table bleeding out from an ectopic pregnancy is an awful time to find the sperm donor and ask if one of both of them should die.
 
#60
#60
LouderVol said:
You are still letting a third party determine the viability of the human, and then justifying the killing of the baby on the desires of that third party.

Anywhere else that is murder, clean and simple.

People just have to hide behind semantics so they dont deal with the truth of the matter.
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In either case you are
 
#61
#61
AshG said:
I see and respect your position on this, but I feel like you're coloring what I'm saying through the lens of your perspective.

What I "preach" is that this is a really complex topic, no matter how badly we wish that it wasn't; dealing with it requires nuance and care rather than an iron hammer approach.

When mom is cut upon on the operating table bleeding out from an ectopic pregnancy is an awful time to find the sperm donor and ask if one of both of them should die.
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I could easily be wrong, but my understanding is that if someone is under the knife the surgeon in the room is the only voice in the matter.

You were just talking about sending the mom home with long term meds, then jump to bleeding out on an operating table after I said I was accepting of abortions in the case of self defense, bleeding out would be easy self defense. Your case (this time) there isnt time to consult others in order to save a life, but in the previous case there was. With each jump you lose yet another decimal point of cases you are describing while ignoring the elephant in the room I am trying to address.

It's why I keep using the terms murder and self defense. Those are two widely used and understood terms which adequately describe the situations, and consequences. Operating table is clear case of immediate self defense. Getting sent home to slowly let the baby kill you over nine months, seems like there is time to weigh decisions. Even if the decision is abortion to protect mom, there is some thinking before someone acts as judge jury and executioner.
 
#65
#65
n_huffhines said:
In either case you are
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Yes, but preferably with a specific, with direct medical knowledge, advocate for the child.

If the baby isnt viable, it isnt viable. If it's a threat to mom, it's a threat to mom. But right now there isnt any representation for the baby and even admitted repeat murders get legal representation before their fate is determined.
 
#67
#67
AshG said:
Cool. Issue SSN at conception and allow them to count immediately towards child tax credits and dependent status.
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How about instead of child tax credits and other incentives to reproduce we have incentives for IUDs?
 
#69
#69
hog88 said:
How about instead of child tax credits and other incentives to reproduce we have incentives for IUDs?
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There's a host of ideas like yours that have merit and deserve greater discussion. IUDs, vasectomies, require pharmacist consultation for hormonal birth control instead of a doctor visit, etc. Great place to start.
 
#70
#70
LouderVol said:
Yes, but preferably with a specific, with direct medical knowledge, advocate for the child.

If the baby isnt viable, it isnt viable. If it's a threat to mom, it's a threat to mom. But right now there isnt any representation for the baby and even admitted repeat murders get legal representation before their fate is determined.
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Might as well argue that cows get no representation and murderers do.

We're getting off-topic. The point is that I don't know so how can I support a law that restricts others' choices? The mere fact that we debate this and it's so well contested by good people on both sides tells you right there that it's not a life in the same way that you or I have life. It seems reasonable that if it can't survive outside the womb, then it's not life on the same terms that we experience it, and I'm not going to say that person can't make a choice for herself, even if I think it might carry some extra weight that we don't understand.
 
#71
#71
Live oral arguments on TV now, audio only.

I think based on the questions and statements we can call Breyer and Sotomayor a solid no?
 
#72
#72
My cousin is Thomas Dobbs. It’s been interesting seeing this Mississippi case hit the SC. I’m definitely pro-life and just watched (listened) to the oral arguments in the case. This is going to be interesting. I think this will be kicked back to the states. You will have states where abortion is legal and others where it isn’t.
 
#75
#75
Franklin_Vol09 said:
My cousin is Thomas Dobbs. It’s been interesting seeing this Mississippi case hit the SC. I’m definitely pro-life and just watched (listened) to the oral arguments in the case. This is going to be interesting. I think this will be kicked back to the states. You will have states where abortion is legal and others where it isn’t.
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States' rights. There's a concept.
 
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