Senators Call for the Grounding of the 737 MAX

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#181
#181
NorthDallas40 said:
Was on a flight test today and talking this over with the flight crew. (Talking about plane crashes... while on a plane 🤦‍♂️).

One said he has read the pilot in command got it stable and level briefly at 15k ft. But then it went into oscillations and departed controlled flight. Will be interesting to see if that narrative hold true. If the pilot got it under control and then did lose it that’s pretty foreboding. How could he lose it again after recognizing, responding, and saving it.
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Below is a summary provided by the committee.


  • Production pressures that jeopardized the safety of the flying public. There was tremendous financial pressure on Boeing and the 737 MAX program to compete with Airbus’ new A320neo aircraft. Among other things, this pressure resulted in extensive efforts to cut costs, maintain the 737 MAX program schedule, and avoid slowing the 737 MAX production line.
  • Faulty Design and Performance Assumptions. Boeing made fundamentally faulty assumptions about critical technologies on the 737 MAX, most notably with MCAS, the software designed to automatically push the airplane’s nose down in certain conditions. Boeing also expected that pilots, who were largely unaware that MCAS existed, would be able to mitigate any potential malfunction.
  • Culture of Concealment. Boeing withheld crucial information from the FAA, its customers, and 737 MAX pilots, including internal test data that revealed it took a Boeing test pilot more than 10 seconds to diagnose and respond to uncommanded MCAS activation in a flight simulator, a condition the pilot described as “catastrophic.” Federal guidelines assume pilots will respond to this condition within four seconds.
  • Conflicted Representation. The FAA’s current oversight structure with respect to Boeing creates inherent conflicts of interest that have jeopardized the safety of the flying public. The report documents multiple instances in which Boeing employees who have been authorized to perform work on behalf of the FAA failed to alert the FAA to potential safety and/or certification issues.
  • Boeing’s Influence Over the FAA’s Oversight Structure. Multiple career FAA officials have documented examples where FAA management overruled a determination of the FAA’s own technical experts at the behest of Boeing. These examples are consistent with results of a recent draft FAA employee “safety culture” survey that showed many FAA employees believed its senior leaders are more concerned with helping industry achieve its goals and are not held accountable for safety-related decisions.
 
#182
#182
FLVOL_79 said:
Pilots still get a large part of the blame. Plenty of others experienced the issue and didnt dive bomb into the ground. I would always think twice before getting on any plane operated out of a non heavily Westernized country. Boeing shares a lot of the blame though.

But I can't emphasize enough that the lack of training and quality control in foreign repair stations is enough for me to avoid a lot of airliners even though the FAA tries its best to help out the turd worlders.
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Below is a summary provided by the committee.

  • Production pressures that jeopardized the safety of the flying public. There was tremendous financial pressure on Boeing and the 737 MAX program to compete with Airbus’ new A320neo aircraft. Among other things, this pressure resulted in extensive efforts to cut costs, maintain the 737 MAX program schedule, and avoid slowing the 737 MAX production line.
  • Faulty Design and Performance Assumptions. Boeing made fundamentally faulty assumptions about critical technologies on the 737 MAX, most notably with MCAS, the software designed to automatically push the airplane’s nose down in certain conditions. Boeing also expected that pilots, who were largely unaware that MCAS existed, would be able to mitigate any potential malfunction.
  • Culture of Concealment. Boeing withheld crucial information from the FAA, its customers, and 737 MAX pilots, including internal test data that revealed it took a Boeing test pilot more than 10 seconds to diagnose and respond to uncommanded MCAS activation in a flight simulator, a condition the pilot described as “catastrophic.” Federal guidelines assume pilots will respond to this condition within four seconds.
  • Conflicted Representation. The FAA’s current oversight structure with respect to Boeing creates inherent conflicts of interest that have jeopardized the safety of the flying public. The report documents multiple instances in which Boeing employees who have been authorized to perform work on behalf of the FAA failed to alert the FAA to potential safety and/or certification issues.
  • Boeing’s Influence Over the FAA’s Oversight Structure. Multiple career FAA officials have documented examples where FAA management overruled a determination of the FAA’s own technical experts at the behest of Boeing. These examples are consistent with results of a recent draft FAA employee “safety culture” survey that showed many FAA employees believed its senior leaders are more concerned with helping industry achieve its goals and are not held accountable for safety-related decisions.
 
#183
#183
FLVOL_79 said:
The plane has THOUSANDS of flight hours. The Ethiopian pilot had 250 on that airframe. Think about that. A kid has more time behind the wheel of a car with a learners permit than this dude had as a pilot of that plane.

Another thing everyone must consider which oddly is being left out of the news is that these countries maintenance programs are 100% sh!t. Their training programs are sh!t. The fact people are shocked that a plane crashed from a country where they go through mass famine and starvation every few years is itself shocking.

A bigger issue is being ignored here though. 2 countries with tons of muslims..2 plane crashes. ..Patriots win superbowl....Easter a month a way...final season of Game of Thrones. Coincidence?
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One of the most egregious decisions made by Boeing was opposing a requirement that pilots receive simulator training to fly the plane. If pilots needed to be retrained, Boeing would have had to eat some of the cost out of its end of the deal, according to an NYT report. This focus on cost-cutting "drove a lot of really bad decisions," DeFazio said.

The Democrats on the committee also accused Boeing of putting a priority on profits by strongly opposing a requirement that pilots receive simulator training to fly the plane. Under a 2011 contract with Southwest Airlines, for example, Boeing promised to discount each of the 200 planes in the airline’s order by $1 million if the F.A.A. ended up requiring simulator training for pilots moving from an earlier version of the aircraft, the 737NG, to the Max.​
“That drove a whole lot of really bad decisions internally in Boeing, and the F.A.A. did not pick up on these things,” Mr. DeFazio said.​
 
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#185
#185
rjd970 said:
Anybody that has worked for one of these companies knows Boeing will claim to fix everything by making mandatory 4-hour ethics training for every single employee, executives exempt, obviously. :rolleyes:
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Oh, and no one is going to jail over this... just some bad press for a while and a stern long lashing from Congress, but no one in charge of making the decisions regarding short cuts and cover ups is going to be held accountable.

But these reefer smokers, busted tail light drivers and dare I say... looters... oh, they must taste justice as soon as possible.
 
#186
#186
rjd970 said:
Anybody that has worked for one of these companies knows Boeing will claim to fix everything by making mandatory 4-hour ethics training for every single employee, executives exempt, obviously. :rolleyes:
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I can attest this is true with the addition of yearly retraining to insure going forward we “are proactive in realizing a culture of compliance”.
 
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#189
#189
rjd970 said:
Anybody that has worked for one of these companies knows Boeing will claim to fix everything by making mandatory 4-hour ethics training for every single employee, executives exempt, obviously. :rolleyes:
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Federal gov is the same way. Racial tensions? Accidental deaths? Sexual harassment? Workplace shooting? Take an online class and the government is absolved.
 
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So it's Trump's fault right? @Rasputin_Vol you gave us a lot of good (scary) data but not a specific link to blame Trump....or did I miss it.
It looks more like we have a lot of government employees at the top of the food chain that are not being "Public Servants"
 
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#195
Wireless1 said:
So it's Trump's fault right? @Rasputin_Vol you gave us a lot of good (scary) data but not a specific link to blame Trump....or did I miss it.
It looks more like we have a lot of government employees at the top of the food chain that are not being "Public Servants"
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Why would it be Trump's fault?
 
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#197
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#198
#198
SpaceCoastVol said:
They need to set up a guillotine outside the corporate offices in Chicago. I have 20,000 hours in Boeings. They haven't made a great airplane in 30 years. Everything they have done since is crap. I am going to finish my career in an Airbus.
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You think that is because of outsourcing design or production? Does Airbus send their work overseas?
 
#199
#199
Orangeburst said:
You think that is because of outsourcing design or production? Does Airbus send their work overseas?
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Design. Airbus has been all about common cockpit design from the inception. There ARE differences, but for the most part they are minor. Boeing has been doing nothing but stretching a 40 year old airframe and putting some half assed cockpit upgrades. The 737-900 needs a freaking kick stand stick installed to prevent it from falling on it's ass when passengers are deplaning. How idiotic is that? And IMHO, the MAX debacle was... a debacle. We have Airbusses made right here in Mobile. The A220. Nice jet, but not an 'original' Airbus. It's a long story. I'm gonna finish on the A350. State of the art airplane and I would take in a NY second over the 787.

jmho, ymmv
 
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#200
#200
SpaceCoastVol said:
Design. Airbus has been all about common cockpit design from the inception. There ARE differences, but for the most part they are minor. Boeing has been doing nothing but stretching a 40 year old airframe and putting some half assed cockpit upgrades. The 737-900 needs a freaking kick stand stick installed to prevent it from falling on it's ass when passengers are deplaning. How idiotic is that? And IMHO, the MAX debacle was... a debacle. We have Airbusses made right here in Mobile. The A220. Nice jet, but not an 'original' Airbus. It's a long story. I'm gonna finish on the A350. State of the art airplane and I would take in a NY second over the 787.

jmho, ymmv
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That is rather concerning. We still have motors I suspect, with RR as well
 
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