Senators Call for the Grounding of the 737 MAX

[NorthDallas40]

Design. Airbus has been all about common cockpit design from the inception. There ARE differences, but for the most part they are minor. Boeing has been doing nothing but stretching a 40 year old airframe and putting some half assed cockpit upgrades. The 737-900 needs a freaking kick stand stick installed to prevent it from falling on it's ass when passengers are deplaning. How idiotic is that? And IMHO, the MAX debacle was... a debacle. We have Airbusses made right here in Mobile. The A220. Nice jet, but not an 'original' Airbus. It's a long story. I'm gonna finish on the A350. State of the art airplane and I would take in a NY second over the 787.

jmho, ymmv

This sounds like a basic cultural issue. The company I started out at 32 years ago was founded by a bunch of engineers and each CEO had an engineering degree until the 90’s. We were an engineering company ran by engineers. Then my division got sold and that was a good thing. We are better off today because of that sale for sure. However the culture was vastly different. The senior people weren’t as nerdy as what we were used to. About 25 years later the assimilation is nearly complete. My generation is retiring now and the underlings were raised in the newer culture.

I remember the most contrasting thing 20 years ago were our proposals. Our proposals had calculus and derivations where required in order to support the point. Sometimes in the body or added as an appendix. Because... they were written by engineers. Now our proposals come across like marketing brochures by comparison. Don’t get me wrong the technical volume is still technical. But it just seems less “meaty”.

And I think that’s probably the more normal state of the defense/aerospace industry. The alpha nerd has been diminished somewhat.

Boeing was an alpha nerd company years ago. NASA used to be the alpha of alpha nerds. It just seems to be more diluted. Or hell maybe I’m just old

 

[Orangeburst]

This sounds like a basic cultural issue. The company I started out at 32 years ago was founded by a bunch of engineers and each CEO had an engineering degree until the 90’s. We were an engineering company ran by engineers. Then my division got sold and that was a good thing. We are better off today because of that sale for sure. However the culture was vastly different. The senior people weren’t as nerdy as what we were used to. About 25 years later the assimilation is nearly complete. My generation is retiring now and the underlings were raised in the newer culture.

I remember the most contrasting thing 20 years ago were our proposals. Our proposals had calculus and derivations where required in order to support the point. Sometimes in the body or added as an appendix. Because... they were written by engineers. Now our proposals come across like marketing brochures by comparison. Don’t get me wrong the technical volume is still technical. But it just seems less “meaty”.

And I think that’s probably the more normal state of the defense/aerospace industry. The alpha nerd has been diminished somewhat.

Boeing was an alpha nerd company years ago. NASA used to be the alpha of alpha nerds. It just seems to be more diluted. Or hell maybe I’m just old

Perculating colon old.

 

[NorthDallas40]

Perculating colon old.

Reminds me I need to go eat a bran muffin.

 

[Orangeburst]

Reminds me I need to go eat a bran muffin.

Bran muffins and soups for ya...lol. From a double nickel

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

You think that is because of outsourcing design or production? Does Airbus send their work overseas?

It ain't about outsourcing design...

Design. Airbus has been all about common cockpit design from the inception. There ARE differences, but for the most part they are minor. Boeing has been doing nothing but stretching a 40 year old airframe and putting some half assed cockpit upgrades. The 737-900 needs a freaking kick stand stick installed to prevent it from falling on it's ass when passengers are deplaning. How idiotic is that? And IMHO, the MAX debacle was... a debacle. We have Airbusses made right here in Mobile. The A220. Nice jet, but not an 'original' Airbus. It's a long story. I'm gonna finish on the A350. State of the art airplane and I would take in a NY second over the 787.

jmho, ymmv

@Orangeburst... this is an American problem, across all industries. We don't do engineering and design anymore. We just try to cookie cut and build on top of existing stuff. The bean counters are driving the decisions that are being made by these engineering companies. They don't want to pay for engineering or R&D...

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

This sounds like a basic cultural issue. The company I started out at 32 years ago was founded by a bunch of engineers and each CEO had an engineering degree until the 90’s. We were an engineering company ran by engineers. Then my division got sold and that was a good thing. We are better off today because of that sale for sure. However the culture was vastly different. The senior people weren’t as nerdy as what we were used to. About 25 years later the assimilation is nearly complete. My generation is retiring now and the underlings were raised in the newer culture.

I remember the most contrasting thing 20 years ago were our proposals. Our proposals had calculus and derivations where required in order to support the point. Sometimes in the body or added as an appendix. Because... they were written by engineers. Now our proposals come across like marketing brochures by comparison. Don’t get me wrong the technical volume is still technical. But it just seems less “meaty”.

And I think that’s probably the more normal state of the defense/aerospace industry. The alpha nerd has been diminished somewhat.

Boeing was an alpha nerd company years ago. NASA used to be the alpha of alpha nerds. It just seems to be more diluted. Or hell maybe I’m just old

This is an American problem. At some point, the cycle will have to revert back to when engineers can do their thing and bean counters can kick rocks...

 

[NorthDallas40]

This is an American problem. At some point, the cycle will have to revert back to when engineers can do their thing and bean counters can kick rocks...

Yep. Too many damn MBA’s and finance degrees in the technical decision making process. But it’s partly on us too. We need to push back on the decision making process too

 

[Smokey X]

Yes, I worked for Babcock and Wilcox (manufacturer) at the time. I took a team from B&W the next day to help determine the status of the plant and to do what we could do to help get the plant to a safe state. I was there for a couple of weeks and then on and off several times during the summer. The operators made a couple of significant errors - a lot like the Air France crew, but fortunately only the plant was trashed and there was no loss of life. It's hard to fully blame the operators because conditions made control room indications confusing. I guess it has a lot to do with why I'm a firm believer in ensuring that the person making operational decisions is as much in the loop as possible.

having worked in the nuclear industry for the majority of my career (in the operational arena), this should always be considered mandatory regardless of the industry but especially when actions are time critical. We always drew strong parallels between the airline and nuclear industries.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Interesting...

John DeLorean - Wikipedia

According to Espey, in their final conversation, DeLorean expressed his dismay at the direction of General Motors, saying "They have too many bean counters and not enough engineers."

 

[Orangeburst]

It ain't about outsourcing design...


@Orangeburst... this is an American problem, across all industries. We don't do engineering and design anymore. We just try to cookie cut and build on top of existing stuff. The bean counters are driving the decisions that are being made by these engineering companies. They don't want to pay for engineering or R&D...

I know that and have been in capex equipment sales for decades. Products are becoming a commodity and it becomes ever frustrating competing on my box vs your box, yet at the same time all the competees have same sourced Chinese **** Bill of Material construction. Like an Hubei electric motor.

I was thinking in regards to Boeing about software, which from my understanding was outsourced and primary cause of 737 Max failure.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Here We Go Again: Boeing 737 Max Makes Emergency Landing After Engine Failure | ZeroHedge

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Why don't we just take this 737 Max out of its misery... and Boeing along with it. They will never be able to fix that thing with just software patches.

 

[NorthDallas40]

Why don't we just take this 737 Max out of its misery... and Boeing along with it. They will never be able to fix that thing with just software patches.

It was just engine trouble on a ferry flight. The aircraft landed safely. No big deal here.

 

[mr.checkerboards]

It was just engine trouble on a ferry flight. The aircraft landed safely. No big deal here.

Probably has to do with it sitting for months. But I still want those things tested well before they put them back into service.

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

Why don't we just take this 737 Max out of its misery... and Boeing along with it. They will never be able to fix that thing with just software patches.

I doubt that a hydraulic failure is a software issue... not saying it isn't, but probably not. But I do agree that a guillotine should be set up in downtown Chicago, and all BA C-suiters should be first in line. Boeing stopped trying years ago.

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

Probably has to do with it sitting for months. But I still want those things tested well before they put them back into service.

I'm not a fan of this particular airplane, but I would bet the rectal exam this airplane has had has never been equaled. Then again.. it is a government operation. On a side note.... the FAA chief (Steve Dickson) used to be my boss at DAL.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

I doubt that a hydraulic failure is a software issue... not saying it isn't, but probably not. But I do agree that a guillotine should be set up in downtown Chicago, and all BA C-suiters should be first in line. Boeing stopped trying years ago.

Missing the point... it's just far too many issues with that plane. If these problems are because they were sitting idle for too long, you need to ask why they needed to be sitting idle in the first place. It all ties together.

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

Missing the point... it's just far too many issues with that plane. If these problems are because they were sitting idle for too long, you need to ask why they needed to be sitting idle in the first place. It all ties together.

No they don't. An engine failure is no more related to the woes of that jet than a flat tire. I do agree that the max was a POS, and if memory serves correctly, President Trump said early on that Boeing should scrap it and rebrand it under another name. He was right.

 

[NorthDallas40]

No they don't. An engine failure is no more related to the woes of that jet than a flat tire. I do agree that the max was a POS, and if memory serves correctly, President Trump said early on that Boeing should scrap it and rebrand it under another name. He was right.

They did a Pan Pan call and safely diverted without further incident on a ferry flight. If it wasn’t a Max it never would have even made news.

 

[TheDeeble]

Missing the point... it's just far too many issues with that plane. If these problems are because they were sitting idle for too long, you need to ask why they needed to be sitting idle in the first place. It all ties together.

An engine failure isn't related to Boeing. The engine was engineered and manufactured by a different company. It's likely due to either an engine component problem or fuel transfer problem.

As suggested earlier, it's like having a tire blowout and blaming the car manufacturer instead of the tire manufacturer.

Edit- As always you should go to the source article, not someone playing with an opinion:

At first reporting, Aviation24.be wrote about a left-hand engine fault, but the story is more complex. Simon Hradecky from The Aviation Herald explains: “There was no engine fault as such. There was a hydraulic fault in the left engine system, but the engine continued to run, and the crew wanted to continue to destination. But then they received a fuel imbalance and decided to shut the engine down according to QRH (no engine fault, but the suspicion of a fuel leak).”

Air Canada Boeing 737-8 MAX suffers hydraulic fault; shuts down left-hand engine on return to service flight - Aviation24.be

The followed procedures and diverted to a nearby airport. Nothing really significant or related to the Max specifically.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

No they don't. An engine failure is no more related to the woes of that jet than a flat tire. I do agree that the max was a POS, and if memory serves correctly, President Trump said early on that Boeing should scrap it and rebrand it under another name. He was right.

Again... listen to what I am saying. What was the contributing factor by most of the people here and the article? Sitting idle for too long. Make or model of engine doesn't matter.

Why were the planes idle to begin with? It's not a very hard question to answer.

 

[NorthDallas40]

Again... listen to what I am saying. What was the contributing factor by most of the people here and the article? Sitting idle for too long. Make or model of engine doesn't matter.

Why were the planes idle to begin with? It's not a very hard question to answer.

You’re really trying too hard on this one Ras.

Boeing is largely still ran by idiots so instead of trying to Gen outrage just wait till the morons serve it up on a platter.

 

[VolinMichigan]

This is an American problem. At some point, the cycle will have to revert back to when engineers can do their thing and bean counters can kick rocks...

Someone please think of the shareholders!!!!

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

Again... listen to what I am saying. What was the contributing factor by most of the people here and the article? Sitting idle for too long. Make or model of engine doesn't matter.

Why were the planes idle to begin with? It's not a very hard question to answer.

I hear what you are saying. I'm just saying it is a non sequitur. When they put airplanes in 'storage' they do a whole lot of things to them to preserve them. I don't know what all, maintenance is not my division, but they don't just pull them onto a vacant taxiway and park them until who knows when. As someone said, were this any other airplane than the Max, this wouldn't be news.. ESPECIALLY on a maintenance flight. I think I have said it, but I am not a fan of the 737 in general anymore Boeing has done little to improve it over the years and has really done nothing other than to stretch it to the point it needs a freaking kickstand to keep from falling on it's ass when passengers are getting off. They tried to pull a fast one with a different airplane by calling it a 737. Yeah it's similar, but very different. The FAA should have never allowed the same type.. IMHO. But they didn't ask me.

 

[Grand Vol]

I hear what you are saying. I'm just saying it is a non sequitur. When they put airplanes in 'storage' they do a whole lot of things to them to preserve them. I don't know what all, maintenance is not my division, but they don't just pull them onto a vacant taxiway and park them until who knows when. As someone said, were this any other airplane than the Max, this wouldn't be news.. ESPECIALLY on a maintenance flight. I think I have said it, but I am not a fan of the 737 in general anymore Boeing has done little to improve it over the years and has really done nothing other than to stretch it to the point it needs a freaking kickstand to keep from falling on it's ass when passengers are getting off. They tried to pull a fast one with a different airplane by calling it a 737. Yeah it's similar, but very different. The FAA should have never allowed the same type.. IMHO. But they didn't ask me.

It is kind of interesting they haven't "moved on" from that design like others.