September 10, 2024 Presidential Debate Thread. (Insert snarky subtitles here.)

[n_huffhines]

is this application of "right winger" the same as it is generally used in the public lexicon?

I'm saying for the purposes of this discussion, where Bison says there are more Libertarians (I think he meant libertarians) than right wingers, there is no way that is true because most of the libertarians still fall under the right wing umbrella. Many have never actually voted for a Libertarian. Maybe their favorite Republican is Justin Amash, but they're in South Carolina and they vote for Lindsey Graham. Their entire ballot is probably Republicans.

So I think it's a little silly for Bison to correct another poster and say they aren't right wingers. They fkn are.

FTR, I think most libertarians connect with Ron Paul's representation of libertarianism, and his example indicates that a libertarian is revealed by the way he votes. I'm not really in the business of telling other libertarians they aren't libertarian enough (I may call somebody out when they're not libertarian at all). They can decide what their label is, but to me, that's where you earn your stripes.

 

[tvolsfan]

I'm saying for the purposes of this discussion, where Bison says there are more Libertarians (I think he meant libertarians) than right wingers, there is no way that is true because most of the libertarians still fall under the right wing umbrella. Many have never actually voted for a Libertarian. Maybe their favorite Republican is Justin Amash, but they're in South Carolina and they vote for Lindsey Graham. Their entire ballot is probably Republicans.

So I think it's a little silly for Bison to correct another poster and say they aren't right wingers. They fkn are.

A “libertarian” on this board is just someone who says social issues should be left to the states.

 

[hog88]

I'm saying for the purposes of this discussion, where Bison says there are more Libertarians (I think he meant libertarians) than right wingers, there is no way that is true because most of the libertarians still fall under the right wing umbrella. Many have never actually voted for a Libertarian. Maybe their favorite Republican is Justin Amash, but they're in South Carolina and they vote for Lindsey Graham. Their entire ballot is probably Republicans.

So I think it's a little silly for Bison to correct another poster and say they aren't right wingers. They fkn are.

FTR, I think most libertarians connect with Ron Paul's representation of libertarianism, and his example indicates that a libertarian is revealed by the way he votes. I'm not really in the business of telling other libertarians they aren't libertarian enough (I may call somebody out when they're not libertarian at all). They can decide what their label is, but to me, that's where you earn your stripes.

You can't be a "right winger" and support more or hell even the same level of government spending. Too many self proclaimed conservatives what many would call right wingers have no problem with our spending.

 

[hog88]

A “libertarian” on this board is just someone who says social issues should be left to the states.

That would be the conservative point of view.

 

[n_huffhines]

A “libertarian” on this board is just someone who says social issues should be left to the states.

Probably true in a lot of cases.

You can tell how well people understand libertarianism by their befuddlement that a libertarian would be woke.

No, no. I'm all for fighting the power. But not over racial issues. The government is pure evil, but it's not racially unjust.

 

[n_huffhines]

You can't be a "right winger" and support more or hell even the same level of government spending. Too many self proclaimed conservatives what many would call right wingers have no problem with our spending.

There is just so much more to be right wing, tho.

 

[hog88]

There is just so much more to be right wing, tho.

Not much more, you can't be right wing and really support the federal government doing anything outside of the strict bounds of the constitution.

 

[n_huffhines]

Not much more, you can't be right wing and really support the federal government doing anything outside of the strict bounds of the constitution.

I completely disagree. Abraham Lincoln is the absolute icon of the right, and he undermined the constitution more than any POTUS ever. Then you go Ronald Reagan as the 2nd biggest icon, and he grew government immensely, compared to his predecessors.

 

[hog88]

I completely disagree. Abraham Lincoln is the absolute icon of the right, and he undermined the constitution more than any POTUS ever. Then you go Ronald Reagan as the 2nd biggest icon, and he grew government immensely, compared to his predecessors.

Lincoln should be a pariah to right wingers.

I guess most who consider themselves right wing are simply confused.

 

[n_huffhines]

Lincoln should be a pariah to right wingers.

I guess most who consider themselves right wing are simply confused.

In your mind. The reason he's not, and Reagan is not, reinforces my point that there is much more to being right-wing than being fiscally responsible. If you do enough of the other things, people won't care much that you grew government.

 

[hog88]

In your mind. The reason he's not, and Reagan is not, reinforces my point that there is much more to being right-wing than being fiscally responsible.

Again, it's confusion and heck it may be me that is confused. It all ties back to fiscal policy, if the federal government is starved, strangled and short on cash with no ability to print it then it cannot be overbearing so IMO being right wing (and again I could be wrong) starts and ends with fiscal policy. Now to other issues not specifically named as a federal power in the constitution anyone considering themselves to be right wing should fervently believe they should be left to the states.

 

[BowlBrother85]

Exactly so in order to be fair, let's have a debate on Fox

Let's do it. Trump is the one who is scared to debate.

 

[C-south]

Let's do it. Trump is the one who is scared to debate.

Nah. He’s just worried y’all don’t have somebody to replace kamel with.

 

[The Sheriff]

SIAP

 

[BowlBrother85]

Nah. He’s just worried y’all don’t have somebody to replace kamel with.

He's just a coward.

 

[C-south]

He's just a coward.

Clearly when word salad goes months without an interview.

 

[Cod]

 

[RockyTop85]

THIRD TRIMESTER ABORTION​

Patients coming in for third trimester abortion (later abortions) are often seeking services for termination of a desired pregnancy that has developed serious complications. This usually means the discovery of a catastrophic fetal anomaly or genetic disorder that guarantees death, suffering, or serious disability for the baby that would be delivered if the pregnancy were to continue to term. (Please see Fetal Anomaliesfor more information on our care for patients with desired pregnancies.) Sometimes a woman presents at this stage for pregnancy termination because of her own severe medical illness or a psychiatric indication.

We believe that the techniques developed by Dr. Hern have resulted in a procedure that is safer than continuing the pregnancy to term with a goal of live birth, and our safety record supports that belief. However, termination of pregnancy at this late gestation still carries with it serious risks of complication. That is why the procedure requires more experience and skill in the operating physician. It also requires scrupulous attention to procedures that reduce the risk of complication.

Third Trimester Abortion

Third trimester abortion patients seeking to terminate a desired pregnancy that has developed serious complications. Fetal anomaly or genetic disorder.

www.drhern.com

 

[SuzyVol]

THIRD TRIMESTER ABORTION​

Patients coming in for third trimester abortion (later abortions) are often seeking services for termination of a desired pregnancy that has developed serious complications. This usually means the discovery of a catastrophic fetal anomaly or genetic disorder that guarantees death, suffering, or serious disability for the baby that would be delivered if the pregnancy were to continue to term. (Please see Fetal Anomaliesfor more information on our care for patients with desired pregnancies.) Sometimes a woman presents at this stage for pregnancy termination because of her own severe medical illness or a psychiatric indication.

We believe that the techniques developed by Dr. Hern have resulted in a procedure that is safer than continuing the pregnancy to term with a goal of live birth, and our safety record supports that belief. However, termination of pregnancy at this late gestation still carries with it serious risks of complication. That is why the procedure requires more experience and skill in the operating physician. It also requires scrupulous attention to procedures that reduce the risk of complication.

Third Trimester Abortion

Third trimester abortion patients seeking to terminate a desired pregnancy that has developed serious complications. Fetal anomaly or genetic disorder.

www.drhern.com

"Often" is a pretty subjective adverb.

 

[n_huffhines]

"Often" is a pretty subjective adverb.

I would say the takeaway is that there is good reason for allowance of third trimester abortions, but it doesn't explain every case, so make policy accordingly.

Doesn't sound like doctors should even do them otherwise, regardless of a patient's request and laws. Too dangerous. Hippocratic oath.

 

[RockyTop85]

"Often" is a pretty subjective adverb.

Did you watch the video?

 

[SuzyVol]

Did you watch the video?

No.

 

[RockyTop85]

No.

Ok.

Looks like a Q&A session where a speaker is told there are no late term abortions (which is incorrect, actually <1% of abortions occur after 24 weeks) so to refute this the speaker calls the number for that clinic (The Boulder Clinic, Dr. Warren Hern, apparently), gets an answering service, tells the answering service she just discovered she was pregnant at 30 weeks and can’t have a baby right now, can she schedule an abortion? The answering service tells her they’re just an answering service and offers to leave a message. She says “but your website says you offer third trimester abortions” and the answering service says the website is accurate. They flash that page on the screen for about .25 seconds.

I agree with you about the equivocal sentence structure, but it still seems inconsistent with how it was presented.

 

[SuzyVol]

Ok.

Looks like a Q&A session where a speaker is told there are no late term abortions (which is incorrect, actually <1% of abortions occur after 24 weeks) so to refute this the speaker calls the number for that clinic (The Boulder Clinic, Dr. Warren Hern, apparently), gets an answering service, tells the answering service she just discovered she was pregnant at 30 weeks and can’t have a baby right now, can she schedule an abortion? The answering service tells her they’re just an answering service and offers to leave a message. She says “but your website says you offer third trimester abortions” and the answering service says the website is accurate. They flash that page on the screen for about .25 seconds.

I agree with you about the equivocal sentence structure, but it still seems inconsistent with how it was presented.

Sorry. I did see that video. I don't pay much attention to such videos. I figure they are cut/edited to make whatever point the poster wants to make, irrespective of whether the totality of the circumstances surrounding the video support the point. I was commenting on the clinic's own choice of words on its site. In describing late term abortions, presumably in a manner most favorable to the justification for them, the clinic didn't use: always, almost always, virtually always, in almost all cases, almost without exception, in the vast majority of cases, in the majority of cases, etc. The clinic used often. Depending on the circumstances, often could represent as few a 10% of the instances of any particular event, or even fewer. Fans often behave badly at sporting events.

 

[RockyTop85]

Sorry. I did see that video. I don't pay much attention to such videos. I figure they are cut/edited to make whatever point the poster wants to make, irrespective of whether the totality of the circumstances surrounding the video support the point. I was commenting on the clinic's own choice of words on its site. In describing late term abortions, presumably in a manner most favorable to the justification for them, the clinic didn't use: always, almost always, virtually always, in almost all cases, almost without exception, in the vast majority of cases, in the majority of cases, etc. The clinic used often. Depending on the circumstances, often could represent as few a 10% of the instances of any particular event, or even fewer. Fans often behave badly at sporting events.

I think not paying attention to those videos is a good choice.