Six to 10?

[Fullfillmer]

OL, McCullers (on size and potential) and AJ. Sounds like what VN has been saying all year

the rest he mentions are a real stretch unless someone just takes a chance

Thank you -- the reality is that we have quite a few draft worthy offensive linemen that date from Kiffin - one d-lineman - one middle line backer.

We lost all of our offensive skill players - with largely the exception of North who was injured and Worley if you want to call him skilled and was injured.

This is not the shocking news that some of you on here - make it sound like. You can't have a great offense and no defense and have a good team. As evidenced by last years team. You can't have a solid offensive line and little else and have a good team - as evidenced this year.

We are still competing with Alabama, Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, Missouri, Auburn all of whom should have 6 or more potentially draft worthy seniors.

Let's move along - nothing to see here.

 

[Volfan2012]

Draftees will be Tiny Richardson, James, Fulton, Stone, AJ Johnson if he comes out, Palardy maybe that is all I see. I don't know who the ten are.

 

[Volumnus 2011]

The two facts, a 5-7 team and 6-10 of them being potential NFL draft picks, can exist without one effecting the other (especially if 5 of those picks are on the O-line).

This team had talented individual players, this team does not have depth. Our 1s could beat Vandy's 1s, and that might work for a game that was 20 minutes long. It actually worked for a game that was about 50 minutes long. However, those 6-10 potential NFL draftees are offset by walk-ons (3 or more, right?), and under developed talent. 10 players cannot make up for a two deep that is a minimum of 44 players.

Oh yeah, that is in a year where schemes on both sides of the ball were changed. You are predicating too much on one loss, by 4 points, to a team that is the second highest over-performer compared to talent in the SEC and probably top 10 in the nation.

It seems to me that you start all of your conversations off of on the talent standpoint, predicated mostly on talent averages (I recognize that, because I start many of my conversations off like that). However, you are drawing conclusions without specifically looking into how on an individual level those evaluations might break down and cause an over or under-performance. Understand that talent averages work 70% of the time, that means for the other 30% of the time they don't. Usually that can be attributed to coaching. However, there are occasions, like UT, where talent averages don't tell the whole story of the coach or the talent available on the team.

Butch has a history of over-performance of 3.5 games a year more than he should win based on raw talent averages. That is tracking his performance at three different schools. Not only that but at each stop he improved talent averages over his predecessor. He is recruiting like a mad man.

There is hope, you just don't want to see it. As I have said before, at some point during this season you went from being rational to simply hating everything you saw on the field. It came right around the Mizzou loss. Now that you can't point to Mizzou as being a bad or untalented team, as the recruiting averages say, you've taken on to pointing to the Vandy loss as the one indication of why we should all be concerned.

We get it, you are convinced that this team was talented and should have beaten Vandy. You say that so often that I am certain everyone gets it. Hell, I believed it wholeheartedly until I actually broke down the latent talent per position groups on the two deep.

This data you show is the modern conundrum of using information to affirm rather than inform.

Okay, now [/thread]

 

[VFL34]

Yep... that's the number of departing Vol football players this analyst says could be drafted:

NFL draft analyst: 6-10 Vols could be drafted in 2014 | Nooga.com

So that begs the question... how can a team with "no talent" or insufficient talent to beat Vandy put that many guys in the NFL?


Interesting quote to say the least: "It’s amazing that a team not bowl-eligible has this many potential draftees, but Tennessee could easily have 6-10 draft picks,” he said.

4-5 come from the line and a runningback makes 6. McCullers cause of his size is 7...It's called lack of depth. And coaching turnover 4 of past 5 years. Consistency wins. U have to realize a lot of drafted players are drafter due to potential. U can be under the radar and play for a d3 school and run. 4.1 at the combine and you will get drafted. It's politics. These posts are not needed that don't add anything but more bashing. Get on some where.

 

[sjt18]

They look good on paper.

The draft has not taken place so this could eventually be untrue... however NFL draft analyses aren't child's play. Good analysis is the difference between championships and being fired. This is BIG DOLLAR stuff.

Your answer doesn't work unless you think the analyst in the article is in a hurry to be unemployed.

 

[KnoxRealtorVOL]

Last time I checked Tiny / Juwuan / Big Dan / AJ don't score touchdowns. Which you need to win games as I recall .




Could be wrong though..

^ this. Right here. Gotta have it in the skill positions. QB and receivers were not pro material. The worlds greatest O-line of all time isn't going to score TD's for you. Aside from North, we were badly weak at receiver, QB (especially after Worley went down), and DB's. All 3 of these positions HAVE to be at least decent to have success. Without them, all the future NFL linemen and linebackers in the world aren't going to win games for you. Especially not against the toughest schedule in the country.

 

[daj2576]

Article supports DAJ2576's theory of the Vols underperforming -2 games in 2013 based on talent level.

I find it amazing that per the article Jacques Smith has more NFL potential than Corey Miller. Miller had more sacks in the Ky game than Smith had in his 4 years.

From a pure talent averages standpoint, this team under-performed by 2 games. Through Vegas eyes, this team performed exactly as could be expected.

When I went back and started looking at this UT team, who under-performed by two games with a coach who has 1) never under-performed his talent averages, and 2) carries a 3.5 game a year positive average effect on talent, I was stunned. UT might be one of the very few outliers whose talent averages due to attrition, lack of recruiting depth at key positions, and under development could not field a quality two deep at any point in the season.

Here is a simple way to look at it. Check out the average star quality of the players on the two deep for each position group. See how that changes next year with the incoming class. It is truly amazing how Jones is updating talent and how little that was recruited/remained before him that could contribute on the field.

 

[GLDunlap]

So your saying Neal won't be drafted as he's the only senior I can think of in this pool.

Well that's kind of my point. All the NFL quality players we have don't score touchdowns. They are mostly offensive lineman and AJ Johnson. McCullers may get drafted just because he's huge.

No I don't think Neal gets drafted unless it's very late.

Team 117 would have likely won a couple more games had they had decent QB play and maybe a TE. The team wasn't completely void of talent but a few good players doesn't make a team.

 

[VFL34]

Not to add, some players don't play with heart because they aren't thinking bout anything but themselves. My ex teammate played careful and didn't run as hard his final year before he became a top Rb pick. He didn't want to get hurt. He could have had way better numbers and been a heisman winner. This dude is my boy and all, but my whole point is, you don't know the attitudes of some players in college. We are going through a cleaning out phase at this university, either get on bored this ship or jump off cause it isn't stopping for u.

 

[sjt18]

4-5 come from the line and a runningback makes 6. McCullers cause of his size is 7...It's called lack of depth.

So less talented teams with roughly the same level of quality in their depth have an advantage? That's an interesting argument...

And coaching turnover 4 of past 5 years.

And specifically how does that keep the current staff from utilizing 6-10 potential NFL players to win 6 games?

Consistency wins.

No. Consistent excellence wins. Consistent mediocrity is no better than inconsistent mediocrity.

U have to realize a lot of drafted players are drafter due to potential.

Oh.... so you are saying that this staff had players with NFL potential that they could not coach up well enough to beat Vandy? To be competitive vs Mizzou?

U can be under the radar and play for a d3 scho and run. 4.1 at the combine and you will get drafted. It's politics.

Running a 4.1 is politics? Can you explain how that works?

These posts are not needed that don't add anything but more bashing. Get in some where.

No. They ANSWER bashing from folks like you. All season these players have been "bashed" for lacking talent et al by those trying to deflect any and all responsibility for any failure from the coaching staff.

You all think it is "positive" to REALLY bash players but "negative" to even question the coaching quality.

 

[oregonvol]

Consistent excellence wins. Consistent mediocrity is no better than inconsistent mediocrity.



No. They ANSWER bashing from folks like you. All season these players have been "bashed" for lacking talent et al by those trying to deflect any and all responsibility for any failure from the coaching staff.

You all think it is "positive" to REALLY bash players but "negative" to even question the coaching quality.

so many good points in this post

 

[butchna]

I have no idea who that is but I was being sarcastic.

Sarcastic about no talent and Butch getting it?...yeah I got that Q...I mean 3rd guy from the sun or ronnyswanson...dude guy
Posted via VolNation Mobile

 

[VFL34]

So less talented teams with roughly the same level of quality in their depth have an advantage? That's an interesting argument...

And specifically how does that keep the current staff from utilizing 6-10 potential NFL players to win 6 games?

No. Consistent excellence wins. Consistent mediocrity is no better than inconsistent mediocrity.

Oh.... so you are saying that this staff had players with NFL potential that they could not coach up well enough to beat Vandy? To be competitive vs Mizzou?

Running a 4.1 is politics? Can you explain how that works?



No. They ANSWER bashing from folks like you. All season these players have been "bashed" for lacking talent et al by those trying to deflect any and all responsibility for any failure from the coaching staff.

You all think it is "positive" to REALLY bash players but "negative" to even question the coaching quality.

I'll make it this simple. Don't come here try breaking down what I said. I been and played in the nfl, I know what goes on. I know it's politics. I know that u will make a roster if u played a big school like tennessee even if ur mediocre u will have a shot. Id take 3* players with juniors and seniors with coaching that has been solid any day over a team who is rebuilding. Learn the sport.

 

[sjt18]

anyone not recognizing under developed talent doesn't understand.

JMO

I understand what you are trying to say and respectfully disagree unless you are saying that the coaches they've had were terrible coaches.

If someone was saying this proves UT should have won the SEC... then I'd agree with your argument. But I don't when we're talking about losing to Vandy and not even getting off the bus for 4 blow out losses.

 

[Lefteye]

yep... That's the number of departing vol football players this analyst says could be drafted:

nfl draft analyst: 6-10 vols could be drafted in 2014 | nooga.com

so that begs the question... How can a team with "no talent" or insufficient talent to beat vandy put that many guys in the nfl?


Interesting quote to say the least: "it’s amazing that a team not bowl-eligible has this many potential draftees, but tennessee could easily have 6-10 draft picks,” he said.

 

[Fullfillmer]

See this is the problem with Excusavols. It has to be all or nothing. It has to be that Butch is our lord and savior and he couldn't have possibly have lost a game to a less talented team or been out-coached...otherwise he must be fired.

The thing is, those of us who want to hold coaches accountable and criticize them when they perform poorly, aren't suggesting he be fired or that he can't coach at all or any of those things. It's the posivols/Vollyannas/excusavols/coach-worshippers who seem only able to deal in extremes.

I think that I would describe our talent as fairly comparable to Vanderbilt's - I know that recruiting star ratings the last two years match up pretty close - the difference in that game aside from coaching and all other factors was that V had one skill player that was by far the most talented player on the field. Arguably he was the difference. He will be playing on Sunday and we didn't have a plan to stop him on defense and/or a player to match him on offense.

 

[dovervolz]

Last time I checked Tiny / Juwuan / Big Dan / AJ don't score touchdowns. Which you need to win games as I recall .




Could be wrong though..

You might ought to check again. Stopping the other team from scoring touchdowns does win games. It's called defense. Also Tiny and Juwuan blocked for those that did score.

 

[butchna]

See this is the problem with Excusavols. It has to be all or nothing. It has to be that Butch is our lord and savior and he couldn't have possibly have lost a game to a less talented team or been out-coached...otherwise he must be fired.

The thing is, those of us who want to hold coaches accountable and criticize them when they perform poorly, aren't suggesting he be fired or that he can't coach at all or any of those things. It's the posivols/Vollyannas/excusavols/coach-worshippers who seem only able to deal in extremes.

It's important to hold a magnifying glass up to mistakes and failures. It is important to recognize them as such and discuss them openly. Problems rarely get fixed when everyone wants to pretend they don't exist.

So many labels...so little caffeine
Posted via VolNation Mobile

 

[sjt18]

I'll make it this simple. Don't come here try breaking down what I said. I been and played in the nfl, I know what goes on. I know it's politics. I know that u will make a roster if u played a big school like tennessee even if ur mediocre u will have a shot. Id take 3* players with juniors and seniors with coaching that has been solid any day over a team who is rebuilding. Learn the sport.

I'll do what I like until Freak says not to. I'll breakdown your post to the syllable if I want. And I could absolutely care less what justification or "credentials" you drop in an effort to excuse subpar coaching.

I am not saying that they cannot coach. I am not saying they will not do better. I hope they can and do. But they DID NOT get the potential out of the '13 roster.

 

[gardners_51609]

Look at Florida this year they went 4-8 and they have a more talented roster than us. Yes, Injuries plagued them, but still talented. I guess I have always thought in terms of when baseball teams pay a bunch of money to guys and still suck. Like the Red Sox of 2012 or the yankees in 2013. Just because you have a bunch of all stars does not mean you have a good team. Look at the Red Sox of 2013 they had a bunch of veteran players that had been all over the place and won a WS on half the payroll and talent. I know this isn't baseball but just a good example. And confidence helps a ton.

It is how a team blends together and not necessarilly how talented they are. However if a team is talented and blends well together watch out...shades of bama the last 5 years...

 

[3rd_and_Jancek]

Sarcastic about no talent and Butch getting it?...yeah I got that Q...I mean 3rd guy from the sun or ronnyswanson...dude guy
Posted via VolNation Mobile

So you're cool with bashing players. Saying they have no talent.You're not cool with people questioning anything having to do with coaching. Got it.

 

[VFL34]

So less talented teams with roughly the same level of quality in their depth have an advantage? That's an interesting argument...

And specifically how does that keep the current staff from utilizing 6-10 potential NFL players to win 6 games?

No. Consistent excellence wins. Consistent mediocrity is no better than inconsistent mediocrity.

Oh.... so you are saying that this staff had players with NFL potential that they could not coach up well enough to beat Vandy? To be competitive vs Mizzou?

Running a 4.1 is politics? Can you explain how that works?



No. They ANSWER bashing from folks like you. All season these players have been "bashed" for lacking talent et al by those trying to deflect any and all responsibility for any failure from the coaching staff.

You all think it is "positive" to REALLY bash players but "negative" to even question the coaching quality.

If you pretty much aren't that good in college but you attend lets say notre dame, and u started or played in all the games. You will get a combine invite. That's politics. It's about who knows u an who they know. For instance as a halfback, i ran a 4.6 in te combine. Benched 225 only 15 times, now if I had played for firman, with those numbers I am going Undrafted, but because I played for a major university I got picked in the 4th round

 

[utvolpj]

so many good points in this post

no there aren't. It's just a repeat of the same old argument using a ridiculous article to back up the claims. Jacques Smith isn't getting drafted. It's unlikely Palardy gets drafted. But even if guys like that do it means very little in terms of how the season should have played out. They lost one game they should have won. That's it

 

[EZE]

Wedidn't have a quality player at the most important position: QB. That led to a lack of scoring which further led to losing. And, just when Worley started to come along, he got hurt and we had a true freshman, further compounding the problem.

Also, it might be worth remembering that a team is only as strong as its weakest link. In other words, you can have 3-4 good players on each side of the ball, but if the others are substandard, then you are going to have problems.

 

[sjt18]

Palardy will get a chance to punt for an NFL team. He may not be drafted however.

I was surprised to see J Smith listed there too... and surprised that Miller wasn't mentioned.