Six to 10?

[fade route]

Do you think Florida fans are happy with the job their coaches did this year?

If Butch is going 5-7 in year 3, then it will time to go. It's year one for Butch. Muschamp is in year 3, different situations altogether.

 

[sjt18]

Nope but if you read the rest of the post my point was to say talent isnt everything and confidence and being a genuine team is, but talent helps a ton.

So does coaching... and that's the point. The coaching at a minimum is still a question mark. The mantra all season from those excusing the coaches was "no talent". Six to 10 draftees is not indicative of "no talent".


That excuse does not work and never really did. There may be other excuses that cannot be as easily and objectively disproven... but that one is pretty much dead.

 

[sjt18]

If Butch is going 5-7 in year 3, then it will time to go. It's year one for Butch. Muschamp is in year 3, different situations altogether.

That's true.

I personally believe Jones is better than Muschamp. I believe that he personally is a very good coach. I am less sure about his choice of DC's.

The question is whether Jones is a championship level coach or not. He didn't show that on the field this year.

 

[Majorvol23]

football is a team sport

football is a team sport

football is a team sport

 

[sjt18]

football is a team sport

football is a team sport

football is a team sport

That's an interesting answer... and another indictment of the coaching this year.

 

[VFL34]

So does coaching... and that's the point. The coaching at a minimum is still a question mark. The mantra all season from those excusing the coaches was "no talent". Six to 10 draftees is not indicative of "no talent".


That excuse does not work and never really did. There may be other excuses that cannot be as easily and objectively disproven... but that one is pretty much dead.

Darick rogers, Bryce brown, a ton of talent. Didn't give their all. U don't know the mindset of the players. Maybe they have the greatest athletic abilities but if your lazy minded, don't give your all or play for yourself it means nothing. U don't know the players.

 

[oregonvol]

Nope but if you read the rest of the post my point was to say talent isnt everything and confidence and being a genuine team is, but talent helps a ton.

You picked out the part that agrees most with your point of view and took it out of context, Dooley recruited players that were talented and were his type of players, and CBJ wants his type of players. Some players will transform well others won't. And the reason they will or will not has nothing to do with talent. They just get it or they don't. Some of the ones leaving got it but quite a few of them simply were not fits in the game plan CBJ runs but they were immensely talented. There is a difference.

I picked the only relevant part. Coaching isn't the same in professional baseball as it is in college football. Completely different animals.

And I don't care about the players CBJ "wants", the job is to win with the players you have. That's what everyone signs up for. James Franklin had to take over a 2-10 Vanderbilt team. I doubt he had the players he "wants", but he still made a bowl every year and managed to play more talented teams tough. Hugh Freeze inherited a 2 win team too. I bet it didn't have the players he wanted either. But he got them to a bowl in his first year and played high ranked teams tough. There are plenty of examples of coaches who, in their first year, without their guys and taking over for a coach who failed, managed to field competitive teams. In fact, it's probably more the rule than exception, when we're talking about coaches who succeed in the long run.

 

[WriterVol]

That's an interesting answer... and another indictment of the coaching this year.

You've become quite bitter.

 

[VFL34]

Many forget the schedule we just had. Franklin nor hugh have had a tough schedule. Give us those schedules we will be bowl bound.

 

[oregonvol]

We're going to fix team problems by discussing them on a message board?

We're not going to fix them. I never said we were. But if we all pretend they don't exist, the people who should fix them have no motivation to do so. It's how people like Dooley get contract extensions with huge buyouts after their first, mediocre year.

 

[fade route]

See this is the problem with Excusavols. It has to be all or nothing. It has to be that Butch is our lord and savior and he couldn't have possibly have lost a game to a less talented team or been out-coached...otherwise he must be fired.

The thing is, those of us who want to hold coaches accountable and criticize them when they perform poorly, aren't suggesting he be fired or that he can't coach at all or any of those things. It's the posivols/Vollyannas/excusavols/coach-worshippers who seem only able to deal in extremes.

It's important to hold a magnifying glass up to mistakes and failures. It is important to recognize them as such and discuss them openly. Problems rarely get fixed when everyone wants to pretend they don't exist.

The real problem is that at this point you would rather see Butch fail so you can be right rather than see Butch turn it around and have to admit on VN that he's a pretty good coach. He will be held accountable........when we have seen a reasonable sample size of his coaching ability in the SEC. Not after 12 games with a roster of someone else's players in a new system on both sides of the ball while playing a true freshman QB against one of the most difficult schedules I've ever seen us play.

 

[VFL34]

First thing fulmer said, if your not goin to play for tennessee or the man beside you, leave this room. That's the attitude Dooley did not have, but butch does.

 

[Dragon18]

See this is the problem with Excusavols. It has to be all or nothing. It has to be that Butch is our lord and savior and he couldn't have possibly have lost a game to a less talented team or been out-coached...otherwise he must be fired.

The thing is, those of us who want to hold coaches accountable and criticize them when they perform poorly, aren't suggesting he be fired or that he can't coach at all or any of those things. It's the posivols/Vollyannas/excusavols/coach-worshippers who seem only able to deal in extremes.

It's important to hold a magnifying glass up to mistakes and failures. It is important to recognize them as such and discuss them openly. Problems rarely get fixed when everyone wants to pretend they don't exist.

C'mon! You know better than that. If anyone is all or nothing It's sjt. He's a know it all that I'm pretty sure has never played a down of football in his life but comes on here acting like he's some kind of Saturday afternoon expert. I've given up trying to even begin to get him to just wait and see. If it were up to him he would have Butch gone after this year. I'm not sure Butch and this staff will be the answer for the program, but I've played enough, and know enough, that you need to give a guy at least one year to change the direction of the program. The problems were more than a lack of talent and speed, there were systemic losing HABITS built into most of these high talent players that are being considered for the draft. They will not interview well.

That being said, I do support Butch and I do see significant positive changes in the program. I do tend to be optimistic about the future and if that makes me a "homer" or an "apolovol" then so be it. I have chosen not to be critical until at least midway through the second season if there is not any sign of getting better. That may not mean that our record is better either. I fully expect us to have a 7-5 or a 6-6 record next year.

Just my 2 cents worth eace2:

 

[oregonvol]

Many forget the schedule we just had. Franklin nor hugh have had a tough schedule. Give us those schedules we will be bowl bound.

I'm not so sure. Even in his first year, Franklin played teams that were way better and much higher ranked tough (I think he only lost 1 game by more than a touchdown, if I recall correctly). We got blown out 4 times. We played a Florida team that ultimately went 4-8 and lost to Ga. Southern, a team with a QB who never completed a pass in college and lost by 2 touchdowns. We struggled to beat South Alabama. We lost at home (coming off a bye week) to Vanderbilt. I don't think we can say with any certainty that we would have made a bowl, even with a lesser schedule.

 

[VFL34]

I'm not so sure. Even in his first year, Franklin played teams that were way better and much higher ranked tough (I think he only lost 1 game by more than a touchdown, if I recall correctly). We got blown out 4 times. We struggled to beat South Alabama. We lost at home (coming off a bye week) to Vanderbilt. I don't think we can say with any certainty that we would have made a bowl, even with a lesser schedule.

Take away Oregon and Alabama, replace with wake Forrest and Massachusetts. I think we get one of those wins. I say Alabama cause vandy never plays them.
IMO though. I see what ur saying tho.

 

[volfan411]

Yep... that's the number of departing Vol football players this analyst says could be drafted:

NFL draft analyst: 6-10 Vols could be drafted in 2014 | Nooga.com

So that begs the question... how can a team with "no talent" or insufficient talent to beat Vandy put that many guys in the NFL?


Interesting quote to say the least: "It’s amazing that a team not bowl-eligible has this many potential draftees, but Tennessee could easily have 6-10 draft picks,” he said.

I do not think any one on here has said there is no talent but that there is not enough talent to compete with the schedule they were given. You keep going back to the Vandy game and saying that UT had more talent than them and you are probably right but by the time we got to that game injuries had taken its toll on the offense. If UT had played Vandy in game 1-6 I am positive the results would have been different and if you are honest you know they would have been too.

 

[fade route]

That's true.

I personally believe Jones is better than Muschamp. I believe that he personally is a very good coach. I am less sure about his choice of DC's.

The question is whether Jones is a championship level coach or not. He didn't show that on the field this year.

We agree on more than you think, but what coach shows they are "championship level" in year 1?

 

[KBVol]

See this is the problem with Excusavols. It has to be all or nothing. It has to be that Butch is our lord and savior and he couldn't have possibly have lost a game to a less talented team or been out-coached...otherwise he must be fired.

The thing is, those of us who want to hold coaches accountable and criticize them when they perform poorly, aren't suggesting he be fired or that he can't coach at all or any of those things. It's the posivols/Vollyannas/excusavols/coach-worshippers who seem only able to deal in extremes.

It's important to hold a magnifying glass up to mistakes and failures. It is important to recognize them as such and discuss them openly. Problems rarely get fixed when everyone wants to pretend they don't exist.

Not an "excusavol"..... you've seen some of my posts where I criticized Jones' coaching performance during that awful 4game stretch where we just looked awful, poorly coached, out coached.

But I just have fatigue around reading these incessant, non ending threads over and over criticizing Jones' coaching this year. I get it. You and Sjt18 and Wylo and few others think he did an awful job. At times I think he did too. But damn guys, give it a rest.... give him another offseason, another recruiting class, another Spring, another fall camp and 12 more games ... a bigger sample size to judge him on before starting another one of these "see, see, I TOLD YOU SO!!" Threads.

 

[Dragon18]

You've become quite bitter.

He's all in on his determination that these coaches can't get it done and doesn't feel like he can say anything positive for fear it will make him a hypocrite. He and a few others are so invested in what they have put forth on these pages that if Butch doesn't fail it leaves them open to extreme backlash. It won't come from me. I just wish they weren't so sold out on the staff failing and then maybe they could search and find some positives to build on.

But as they say, different strokes for different folks. sjt and Oregonvol and the others are definitely entitled to their opinions, even if it really is too early to develop informed ones. eace2:

 

[vols4evah]

we had talent but we needed a good QB. Plus the schedule beat us down and it was hard for the team to get back up.

simple as that.

 

[butchna]

So you're cool with bashing players. Saying they have no talent.You're not cool with people questioning anything having to do with coaching. Got it.

I question some of the coaching decisions from this past season...I don't think we were bereft of talent...I think the new talent and the holdovers will combine and gel this year...and we'll be proud of the result..if not, the clock starts to tick on ANOTHER coaching change...I choose to be positive and not SQUAWK MY HEAD OFF under the guise of holding the coaching staff accountable...change will come if needed....all YOU'RE doing is making noise...got it?
Posted via VolNation Mobile

 

[fade route]

I picked the only relevant part. Coaching isn't the same in professional baseball as it is in college football. Completely different animals.

And I don't care about the players CBJ "wants", the job is to win with the players you have. That's what everyone signs up for. James Franklin had to take over a 2-10 Vanderbilt team. I doubt he had the players he "wants", but he still made a bowl every year and managed to play more talented teams tough. Hugh Freeze inherited a 2 win team too. I bet it didn't have the players he wanted either. But he got them to a bowl in his first year and played high ranked teams tough. There are plenty of examples of coaches who, in their first year, without their guys and taking over for a coach who failed, managed to field competitive teams. In fact, it's probably more the rule than exception, when we're talking about coaches who succeed in the long run.

Freeze was only one game better than Butch in his first year during the regular season, and played only 4 top 20 teams and was drilled by every one of them. Butch faced 7 top 20 teams in his first year and beat one of them. So that comparison doesn't work.

 

[oregonvol]

The real problem is that at this point you would rather see Butch fail so you can be right rather than see Butch turn it around and have to admit on VN that he's a pretty good coach. He will be held accountable........when we have seen a reasonable sample size of his coaching ability in the SEC. Not after 12 games with a roster of someone else's players in a new system on both sides of the ball while playing a true freshman QB against one of the most difficult schedules I've ever seen us play.

There's really no point in discussing anything with you. You are simply incapable of any legitimate form of debate. All you can ever manage is making up straw man arguments to undercut anyone using logic or to ascribe them motivations that make no sense. Your methodology is so silly, it even overshadows your reliance on that familiar mantra from the Dooley era "Can't make any evaluations for 3 years!"

 

[Fullfillmer]

I'm not so sure. Even in his first year, Franklin played teams that were way better and much higher ranked tough (I think he only lost 1 game by more than a touchdown, if I recall correctly). We got blown out 4 times. We played a Florida team that ultimately went 4-8 and lost to Ga. Southern, a team with a QB who never completed a pass in college and lost by 2 touchdowns. We struggled to beat South Alabama. We lost at home (coming off a bye week) to Vanderbilt. I don't think we can say with any certainty that we would have made a bowl, even with a lesser schedule.

If Franklin is your guy and your idea of a great coach - if he is around in two years - I will bet you any amount that you want to wager that Tennessee with Butch at the helm will have a better record than Vanderbilt. What say you.

 

[WriterVol]

We're not going to fix them. I never said we were. But if we all pretend they don't exist, the people who should fix them have no motivation to do so. It's how people like Dooley get contract extensions with huge buyouts after their first, mediocre year.

I thought those were caused by poor managerial decisions.