So Obama has been elected as our next president.

#26
#26
droski said:
yes, but exxon, just like apple, paid billions for research and development to get that oil. there are plenty of necessities that have gone up in price that no one is going nuts over. no one is saying that farmers should get taxed more because the cost of corn has tripled.
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Farmers and most other necessities aren't the foundation of the economy either. If we all of a sudden ran out of gas tomorrow we would come to a standstill as a country. If we run out of corn we eat something else. As far as apple is concerned, yes they did pay all the research and investment, but they aren't pulling in $1500/second in profits with their 40% profit margins.

Don't get me wrong, I understand what you are saying and fundamentally agree with it. By most accounts we have seen gas consumption drop in this country in response to high gas prices. This is free market working. But people are going to be pissed when that same free market is setting gas a $4/gallon while demand is falling and corporations are reigning in the money only to buy back stocks to increase shareholder value.
 
#27
#27
rjd970 said:
The said corporations also shouldn't be entitled to a bail out just because they "are too big to fail". Especially when the bailout is coming from taxes paid for by the kind of people they let go.
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fair enough, but if it's an economy crippler, there is an argument to look into the benefits of said bailout.

Our financial institutions are at the forefront of the world and the bailout probably made sense. Bailing out garbage like our broken, union bloated auto industry makes no sense.

The oil companies are not getting bailout money that I'm aware of. Tax incentives to spur technology and exploration for those guys makes total sense. It just becomes a nice little class warfare wedge when those guys are making big profits.
 
#28
#28
BPV your post give me an idea. G Bush goes into wrestling and calls himself the (economy crippler).
 
#29
#29
rjd970 said:
As far as apple is concerned, yes they did pay all the research and investment, but they aren't pulling in $1500/second in profits with their 40% profit margins.
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but apple has nowhere near the investment capital to make returns for that the Big Oil guys have, hence the $1,500/second profit is simply a hyperbolic style stat that gets put back in its rightful place when the sub 10% margins are put back into play.
 
#32
#32
BigPapaVol said:
Our financial institutions are at the forefront of the world and the bailout probably made sense. Bailing out garbage like our broken, union bloated auto industry makes no sense.
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Now this I completely agree with. Heard on the news this morning the big three are lobbying for a $25 Billion bailout. That is crap.
 
#33
#33
it's a done deal. obama is in the UAW's pocket. sadly the detriot mayor essentially admitted this on CNBC this morning.
 
#34
#34
rjd970 said:
Now this I completely agree with. Heard on the news this morning the big three are lobbying for a $25 Billion bailout. That is crap.
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Pelosi and the unions have both said they'll be getting it.

If we give it, there needs to be a mandate toward a hardcore green movement from the group. It's the only way they'll ever be competitive again.

However, it won't be. In the end, it's pure welfare so they can keep paying unionized employees and massive pension liabilities.
 
#35
#35
rjd970 said:
Now this I completely agree with. Heard on the news this morning the big three are lobbying for a $25 Billion bailout. That is crap.
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I heard Obama will do it under the condition they put money into researching alternative fuels. Very poor investment. The conditions should have been get rid of the unions.
 
#36
#36
BigPapaVol said:
Pelosi and the unions have both said they'll be getting it.

If we give it, there needs to be a mandate toward a hardcore green movement from the group. It's the only way they'll ever be competitive again.

However, it won't be. In the end, it's pure welfare so they can keep paying unionized employees and massive pension liabilities.
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Maybe this will drive foward an unholy marriage with the tree huggers and union mobsters. They both seem to have Pelosi in their pocket anyway.

This union crap is one of the biggest, if not the biggest, issues I have with the democratic platform. Foreign auto companies are opening shop in the southeast region of the country primarily because it is right to work and operating costs are low. We need to do away with unions if we ever want to be competitive again in the auto industry.
 
#37
#37
KB5252 said:
I heard Obama will do it under the condition they put money into researching alternative fuels. Very poor investment. The conditions should have been get rid of the unions.
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I don't know about alternative fuels, but BPV's comment on making their product greener seems to make sense given the success toyota and honda have had with their models.

Getting rid of the unions would be a great idea, but I don't see it happening.
 
#38
#38
rjd970 said:
I don't know about alternative fuels, but BPV's comment on making their product greener seems to make sense given the success toyota and honda have had with their models.

Getting rid of the unions would be a great idea, but I don't see it happening.
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maybe it was greener. I heard this while getting ready for work. Still it is a moot point as long as there are unions involved they will not be as competitive.
 
#40
#40
rjd970 said:
Farmers and most other necessities aren't the foundation of the economy either. If we all of a sudden ran out of gas tomorrow we would come to a standstill as a country. If we run out of corn we eat something else. As far as apple is concerned, yes they did pay all the research and investment, but they aren't pulling in $1500/second in profits with their 40% profit margins.

Don't get me wrong, I understand what you are saying and fundamentally agree with it. By most accounts we have seen gas consumption drop in this country in response to high gas prices. This is free market working. But people are going to be pissed when that same free market is setting gas a $4/gallon while demand is falling and corporations are reigning in the money only to buy back stocks to increase shareholder value.
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No they didn't, at least not during the initial boom for them. Neither Apple nor Microsoft spent heavily on research when they made themselves the giants of the computer market. Apple was basically given the Windows technology from Xerox and Microsoft, literally but legally, stole it from Apple
 
#41
#41
BigPapaVol said:
fair enough, but if it's an economy crippler, there is an argument to look into the benefits of said bailout.

Our financial institutions are at the forefront of the world and the bailout probably made sense. Bailing out garbage like our broken, union bloated auto industry makes no sense.

The oil companies are not getting bailout money that I'm aware of. Tax incentives to spur technology and exploration for those guys makes total sense. It just becomes a nice little class warfare wedge when those guys are making big profits.
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Thanks. You seem to be one of the few people that have an understanding of how the oil companies work...:hi:
 
#42
#42
rjd970 said:
I don't know about alternative fuels, but BPV's comment on making their product greener seems to make sense given the success toyota and honda have had with their models.

Getting rid of the unions would be a great idea, but I don't see it happening.
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Maybe I'm missing something here, but reducing worker power and emboldening capitalist interests does not seem to be the way to answer this problem. Union members are not the issue for the American Auto Industry, its commitment to expensive fuels, ridiculous gas mileage, and larger vehicles while removing manufacturing from the country they base themselves in is clearly an issue.

Dependency on nonrenewable fuel sources with cars that get crap mileage are what have ruined them. They could have been leaders in the world for alternative technologies that relieved us at the pump, drove up consumer interest, and shut the borders on foreign car companies. You seem to be suggesting we give them more autonomy to keep messing up instead of at least holding them accountable to their own employees. I don't agree with bail-outs for corporations that abandoned America for cheaper wages overseas while refusing to do anything to help themselves with consumers. Asking Americans to accept less power and lower wages is certainly not appropriate.
 
#43
#43
TreeGreen said:
Maybe I'm missing something here, but reducing worker power and emboldening capitalist interests does not seem to be the way to answer this problem. Union members are not the issue for the American Auto Industry, its commitment to expensive fuels, ridiculous gas mileage, and larger vehicles while removing manufacturing from the country they base themselves in is clearly an issue.

Dependency on nonrenewable fuel sources with cars that get crap mileage are what have ruined them. They could have been leaders in the world for alternative technologies that relieved us at the pump, drove up consumer interest, and shut the borders on foreign car companies. You seem to be suggesting we give them more autonomy to keep messing up instead of at least holding them accountable to their own employees. I don't agree with bail-outs for corporations that abandoned America for cheaper wages overseas while refusing to do anything to help themselves with consumers. Asking Americans to accept less power and lower wages is certainly not appropriate.
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you might consider looking at their income statements and balance sheets over the past 20 years. Check out the pension expenses on the P&L and the unfunded pension liabilities on the Balance Sheets. You might find a teensy little problem with management giving the joint away 40 years ago so the sorry, lazy, shiftless union leaders would get the employees back to work.

Those union idiots hijacked the companies. The fact that Toyota and co can still make a fortune selling gas guzzling monsters of high quality should tell you that you're missing the mark by about 49877934324 miles.
 
#44
#44
BigPapaVol said:
you might consider looking at their income statements and balance sheets over the past 20 years. Check out the pension expenses on the P&L and the unfunded pension liabilities on the Balance Sheets. You might find a teensy little problem with management giving the joint away 40 years ago so the sorry, lazy, shiftless union leaders would get the employees back to work.

Those union idiots hijacked the companies. The fact that Toyota and co can still make a fortune selling gas guzzling monsters of high quality should tell you that you're missing the mark by about 49877934324 miles.
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Except you're ignoring that by letting Asian and overseas companies become the leaders in hybrid and alternative transportation that our companies are now behind. Also, I fail to see how we cannot hold Ford et al accountable for jumping ship for lower wages across borders while padding their leaders pockets and destroying jobs across the US. First they moved out of the city to rural areas, and when people there demanded an American Dream way of life they moved to other countries completely.

Also, Toyota's best selling car is not guzzler as you seem to imply, and the nosedive trend of the American Monster is illustrating that smaller, gas efficient, vehicles are now in top demand: Toyota Corolla, Toyota Camry, Honda Civic, Honda Accord and hybrids are what consumers are moving towards. The F-150 has been sub-planted by these more efficient vehicles. In addition, manufacturers such as KIA, Hyundai, and Subaru saw significant profit increases while many manufacturers such as Ford, Chevy, and GM saw decreasing profit margins (although to be fair Toyota has seen it too). It is clear that an oil driven economy and the land yacht design of the American Auto Industry is killing them. They had the opportunity to invest in alternatives, more fuel efficiency, ect but they chose not to and now smaller companies and the Japanese rule.
 
#45
#45
TreeGreen said:
Except you're ignoring that by letting Asian and overseas companies become the leaders in hybrid and alternative transportation that our companies are now behind. Also, I fail to see how we cannot hold Ford et al accountable for jumping ship for lower wages across borders while padding their leaders pockets and destroying jobs across the US. First they moved out of the city to rural areas, and when people there demanded an American Dream way of life they moved to other countries completely.

Also, Toyota's best selling car is not guzzler as you seem to imply, and the nosedive trend of the American Monster is illustrating that smaller, gas efficient, vehicles are now in top demand: Toyota Corolla, Toyota Camry, Honda Civic, Honda Accord and hybrids are what consumers are moving towards. The F-150 has been sub-planted by these more efficient vehicles. In addition, manufacturers such as KIA, Hyundai, and Subaru saw significant profit increases while many manufacturers such as Ford, Chevy, and GM saw decreasing profit margins (although to be fair Toyota has seen it too). It is clear that an oil driven economy and the land yacht design of the American Auto Industry is killing them. They had the opportunity to invest in alternatives, more fuel efficiency, ect but they chose not to and now smaller companies and the Japanese rule.
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our manufacturers had to go overseas to get away from the unions.

Toyota has a little brand called Lexus that is littered with gas guzzlers and is probably the leading brand in the entire world.

Again, do some homework on the destructiveness of the unions before you blame any other single thing for the demise of US auto manufacturing.
 
#47
#47
BigPapaVol said:
our manufacturers had to go overseas to get away from the unions.

Toyota has a little brand called Lexus that is littered with gas guzzlers and is probably the leading brand in the entire world.

Again, do some homework on the destructiveness of the unions before you blame any other single thing for the demise of US auto manufacturing.
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Leading brand and best selling brand are not the same thing, but frankly the numbers do not support your claim either way. You can find the consumer reports where smaller efficient cars are killing other vehicles any where. I just assumed our auto industry would learn from the last oil crisis when smaller, more efficient, foreign vehicles actually came into prominence. Which is, coincidentally enough, the same time-frame in which the industry left rural America for "greener pastures" to make-up on missed profit margins. Neither corporations or unions are squeaky clean, but what drove our manufacturers out of America was globalization's ability to move wage negotiations 100% into the hands of manufacturers. The golden-era of union and auto industry work uplifted wages to the point where workers had a basic "middle-class" life. Years later when technology made it was easier to find lower wages some where else so you could pad your profits the choice was easy to make...leave America. Unions are completely obsolete when they have 0 negotiating power for their worker constituency.
 
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#48
#48
And if auto and other manufacturers suffer financially for bailing I will be snickering all the while. Greed has an ugly face.
 
#49
#49
TreeGreen said:
Leading brand and best selling brand are not the same thing, but frankly the numbers do not support your claim either way. You can find the consumer reports where smaller efficient cars are killing other vehicles any where. I just assumed our auto industry would learn from the last oil crisis when smaller, more efficient, foreign vehicles actually came into prominence. Which is, coincidentally enough, the same time-frame in which the industry left rural America for "greener pastures" to make-up on missed profit margins. Neither corporations or unions are squeaky clean, but what drove our manufacturers out of America was globalization's ability to move wage negotiations 100% into the hands of manufacturers. The golden-era of union and auto industry work uplifted wages to the point where workers had a basic "middle-class" life. Years later when technology made it was easier to find lower wages some where else so you could pad your profits the choice was easy to make...leave America.
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our auto industry was heading down the crapper long before this fuel price hike.

They can't make cars profitably because they spend 5k per car in pension funds per car before thy even start overpaying their current union slugs to build one. Hence, their only profitable vehicles are SUV's and trucks ssince people were willing to overpay for them. That anomaly died, their slow march to death was simply accelerated.

The lack of quality and bloated costs killed Detroit, not the lack of fuel efficient options. Those clowns were making the vast majority of their profit in the financing entities, rather than in manufacturing autos. It's a sad story. You should look into it.
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#50
#50
BigPapaVol said:
our auto industry was heading down the crapper long before this fuel price hike.

They can't make cars profitably because they spend 5k per car in pension funds per car before thy even start overpaying their current union slugs to build one. Hence, their only profitable vehicles are SUV's and trucks ssince people were willing to overpay for them. That anomaly died, their slow march to death was simply accelerated.

The lack of quality and bloated costs killed Detroit, not the lack of fuel efficient options. Those clowns were making the vast majority of their profit in the financing entities, rather than in manufacturing autos. It's a sad story. You should look into it.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
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I'm well aware of the auto-industry in the US, and I'm willing to accept that mismanagement occurred on multiple levels, but their inability to adapt and their ridiculous profits were why they got squeezed in the first place. They were making money hand-over-fist, and UAW wanted fair compensation. When their economic model failed due to short-sightedness, mismanagement, or whatever, unions became an easy scapegoat with the availability of cheap work overseas. Industry could finally strong-arm American workers by just up and leaving. In the mean time, managers, constituents, and others believed "socialist medicine" was/is the devil. 40% of your labor costs? Shouldn't you be supporting a national health plan? Why do you think Toyota and others flee to Canada? I'll give you a hint they can write-off health care which is a huge disadvantage for the US. That isn't to say we should model ourselves after Canada's horrible plan, but it's just an example of some of the hypocrisy of their management plans.

I also cannot help but return to the fact that they were building the wrong kind of car. That certainly isn't the unions fault. Neither is it their fault that Japanese manufacturers invested in technologies that improved efficiency and lessened pollution while our oil industry and auto industry lobbied heavily against regulations (or research), and are now paying the price in continuing to be behind, nor can you blame them for Japan coming in and selling at a loss until they gained market position. Supporting fat cats who were out competed in their own market just seems absurd to me, and to blame workers and their union is just an easy way of ignoring deep-seated problems that are clearly poking their head out. I just find it impossible to sit here and blame union workers for the inability to predict, or simply the unexpectedness, of foreign cars to come here and kick our butts.
 
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