So Obama has been elected as our next president.

#51
#51
Tree green, you don't know business but you're not alone in that. The mismanagement was allowing unions to become so pervasive and not shutting down sooner. The inevitable move overseas was the absolute right one. If you believe corporate's job is to provide jobs rather than maximize profits, you need to haul yourself to Cuba. Blaming management for making too much money on its products is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. I can see that your entitlement mentality makes you a bit blind to management's function, but it isn't about paying employees, especially overpaid and sorry ones. In fact, as soon as a cheaper alternative is identified, management should be summarily fired if it waits one second to start the transition.

The "little guy" blather is damn near sickening, considering that capitalism is the root of power in this country.

Are you saying that Toyota can't write off health care expense in the US? That's patently absurd. Expense is expense.
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#52
#52
the same time-frame in which the industry left rural America for "greener pastures" to make-up on missed profit margins. Neither corporations or unions are squeaky clean, but what drove our manufacturers out of America was globalization's ability to move wage negotiations 100% into the hands of manufacturers. The golden-era of union and auto industry work uplifted wages to the point where workers had a basic "middle-class" life. Years later when technology made it was easier to find lower wages some where else so you could pad your profits the choice was easy to make...leave America. Unions are completely obsolete when they have 0 negotiating power for their worker constituency.
I really forgot to respond to this little pile of Castro philosophy.

negotiating leverage didn't move any manufacturer out of America. Cost did, period. Again, any management team that doesn't improve their profits by decision making needs to be summarily fired. Propping up overpaid workers because of some socialist negotiating rules for unions in the past is no reason to continue to be uncompetitive.

The day that something helped make unions obsolete was a good day for auto buyers and auto manufacturers.

Negotiating power for employees should 100% lie in their capacity to perform a function, or multiple functions, in a dependable way coupled with market pricing. The day that the market is no longer setting wages is the day that something is becoming less competitive. Unions were simply demanding artificial market pricing for crap jobs and it broke the bank when competition entered the scene. Pretending that someone "deserves" a middle class life for working at an auto plant is absurd. Someone deserves a middle class life to the extent that the market will bear middle class pay for the set of traits or skills that said someone possesses, period.

The Japanese auto companies murdered Detroit through the 3 decades that watched Detroit transition to uncompetitive practices and bloated worthlessness. Unions are absolutely front and center in that demise. It's only fitting that the UAW die with the folks that massively overpaid it since inception.
 
#53
#53
I'm confident the people who elected Obama have no idea what even went on the last 8 years you've just been told it was a disaster on the level of the Hindenburg. Wrap your mind around this, Barack plans to lower taxes on everyone but the top 1 or 2%, but he also plans on a universal healthcare plan (Where is this money going to come from?), He plans to push ethanol (stupidest decision ever unless you enjoy paying $5.00 a gallon for Milk and increasing prices on all meats and grains), ever hear of a capital gains tax? (Of course you haven't) well basically raising it (Obama's plan) is ANOTHER good reason to not go into the marker (hello recession) and it is a fact that when you raise the capital gains tax proceeds from that tax actually go down....(so there is less money, but we plan on paying for people's mortgages because they're stupid and bought a house they couldn't afford. We extend unemployment payments and often increase them.) Where is the money going to come form? Well the answer is simple...
1.) Everyone is going to be taxed except the people we're giving the handouts to. (Under $42,000) This will be done in the form of sales tax, or a universal tax that will not be called an income tax (because he promised he wouldn't raise your income taxes), taxing gun ownership,
2.)Print more money destroy the economy because he doesnt want to break his promises. Have the liberal media spin it like it was Bush's fault and then have Europe come and bail us out. Further proving to the world that America is clueless.

You say it couldn't be any worse...then how was Mccain worse? I'm not saying either was a savior but we needed a LEADER not a PROMISER and PROMOTER. Someone who has been there before and has the respect of his peers. NOT a BLEEDING HEART SOCIALIST who believes that any kind of work, and in some cases no work at all, is equal.

Barack won because a lot of people didn't do their homework. Congratulations to us. I hope this publicity stunt works out...
 
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#54
#54
BAR STOOL ECONOMICS

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten
comes to $100.

If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something
like this:

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay $1.
The sixth would pay $3.
The seventh would pay $7.
The eighth would pay $12.
The ninth would pay $18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

So, that's what they decided to do. The ten men drank in the bar every day
and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw
them a curve.

'Since you are all such good customers, he said, I'm going to reduce the
cost of your daily beer by $20.

Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the
first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what
about the other six men - the paying customers? How could they divide the
$20 windfall so that everyone would get his 'fair share?'

They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that
from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end
up being paid to drink his beer. So, the bar owner suggested that it would
be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he
proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.!

And so:

The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).
The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33% savings).
The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28% savings).
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).
The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings)..

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued
to drink for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare
their savings.

'I only got a dollar out of the $20, 'declared the sixth man. He pointed to
the tenth man, 'but he got $10!'

'Yeah, that's right,' exclaimed the fifth man. 'I only saved a dollar, too.
It's unfair that he got ten times more than I!'

'That's true!!' shouted the seventh man. 'Why should he get $10 back when I
got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!'*

'Wait a minute,' yelled the first four men in unison. 'We didn't get
anything at all. The system exploits the poor!'

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat
down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill,
they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between
all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our
tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit
from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and
they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking
overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

For those who understand, no explanation is needed.
For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.

No matter what loop holes the rich have it doesn’t change the fact that the IRS reported the top 25% earned 66% of the income but paid 85% of the tax bill and the bottom 50% earned 13% of the income and paid 3% of the bill. That leaves 12% of the bill to be paid by last 25%. Someone is going to have one hell of a time convincing me that the rich don’t pay their fair share.
 
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#55
#55
I really forgot to respond to this little pile of Castro philosophy.

negotiating leverage didn't move any manufacturer out of America. Cost did, period. Again, any management team that doesn't improve their profits by decision making needs to be summarily fired. Propping up overpaid workers because of some socialist negotiating rules for unions in the past is no reason to continue to be uncompetitive.

The day that something helped make unions obsolete was a good day for auto buyers and auto manufacturers.

Negotiating power for employees should 100% lie in their capacity to perform a function, or multiple functions, in a dependable way coupled with market pricing. The day that the market is no longer setting wages is the day that something is becoming less competitive. Unions were simply demanding artificial market pricing for crap jobs and it broke the bank when competition entered the scene. Pretending that someone "deserves" a middle class life for working at an auto plant is absurd. Someone deserves a middle class life to the extent that the market will bear middle class pay for the set of traits or skills that said someone possesses, period.

The Japanese auto companies murdered Detroit through the 3 decades that watched Detroit transition to uncompetitive practices and bloated worthlessness. Unions are absolutely front and center in that demise. It's only fitting that the UAW die with the folks that massively overpaid it since inception.

Pile of Castro philosophy? I didn't say anything about granting auto workers a middle-class life, I said that the golden-era uplifted them in a mutual frame where our industry was in a boom, and profit was rampant. When they were being out competed and practicing a form of managerial incompetence, and they could relieve themselves of wages in the US, they jumped ship. Your complete avoidance of management, research, and other included problems and harping on market economics just shows you have an agenda. That's fine, but Castro? Give me a break.
 
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#56
#56
Pile of Castro philosophy? I didn't say anything about granting auto workers a middle-class life, I said that the golden-era uplifted them in a mutual frame where our industry was in a boom, and profit was rampant. When they were being out competed and practicing a form of managerial incompetence, and they could relieve themselves of wages in the US, they jumped ship. Your complete avoidance of management, research, and other included problems and harping on market economics just shows you have an agenda. That's fine, but Castro? Give me a break.

I have an agenda while yo blister management and support the unions. Entertaining.
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#57
#57
I have an agenda while yo blister management and support the unions. Entertaining.
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As long as you recognize it I don't care what you say about me. Also, I'm not so much supporting unions as I am making the point that I don't view them as the defacto problem. I'm more than willing to admit my slant, but I'm the only person here offering any sort of alternative to the picture you guys paint, or at least an alternative that is based around some form of information other than "Republicans Bad!" This is the most boring politics forum in the world because there isn't any.
 
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#58
#58
As long as you recognize it I don't care what you say about me. Also, I'm not so much supporting unions as I am making the point that I don't view them as the defacto problem. I'm more than willing to admit my slant, but I'm the only person here offering any sort of alternative to the picture you guys paint, or at least an alternative that is based around some form of information other than "Republicans Bad!" This is the most boring politics forum in the world because there isn't any.

you're welcome to take your clear cut political brilliance and haul it where others can match said brilliance. We hate to bore a very obvious deep thinker like yourself.

Heck, just your opnion on this point and utter lack of any business knowledge whatsoever has proven overwhelming for this place. I can't imagine that any board can handle your capacity for political understanding. Good luck finding your new home.

Just a hint. Alternatives, while clearly alternative, are still idiotic when steeped in idiocy.

Unions are absolutely the death to the auto industry. They have also murdered education and airlines.

Again, good luck in your new home with other capable folk. We'll just keep wallowing in our stupidity around here and hope idiots like you aren't handed the reins to companies, ever.
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#59
#59
you're welcome to take your clear cut political brilliance and haul it where others can match said brilliance. We hate to bore a very obvious deep thinker like yourself.

Heck, just your opnion on this point and utter lack of any business knowledge whatsoever has proven overwhelming for this place. I can't imagine that any board can handle your capacity for political understanding. Good luck finding your new home.

Just a hint. Alternatives, while clearly alternative, are still idiotic when steeped in idiocy.

Unions are absolutely the death to the auto industry. They have also murdered education and airlines.

Again, good luck in your new home with other capable folk. We'll just keep wallowing in our stupidity around here and hope idiots like you aren't handed the reins to companies, ever.
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Oh please, as if I'm talking about my intelligence being greater. I'm referring to the handshaking and hugs because there is no political debate here. How exciting it must be to come on here to talk politics and continually be in agreement with everything everyone says, and on the one occasion that someone "different" shows up that you can just be completely rude to them. I can say the same thing about you, that your lack of understanding about the way the market effects people has blinded you to big business backing to the point where they can never be wrong or accept any wrong doing. I don't want the reigns to a company either, but at least I'm aware enough to know when I'm making a bad deal (IE the retarded health care package while I attempt to destroy methods that would relieve me of that burden, or my continued partnership with an industry that America lacks resources for, or the many other things I've pointed out). Your continued harping on union squeezing and lack of corporate power is ridiculous. They have all the power, that's why they were able to just leave in the first place.
 
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#60
#60
Oh please, as if I'm talking about my intelligence being greater. I'm referring to the handshaking and hugs because there is no political debate here. How exciting it must be to come on here to talk politics and continually be in agreement with everything everyone says, and on the one occasion that someone "different" shows up that you can just be completely rude to them. I can say the same thing about you, that your lack of understanding about the way the market effects people has blinded you to big business backing to the point where they can never be wrong or accept any wrong doing. I don't want the reigns to a company either, but at least I'm aware enough to know when I'm making a bad deal (IE the retarded health care package while I attempt to destroy methods that would relieve me of that burden, or my continued partnership with an industry that America lacks resources for, or the many other things I've pointed out). Your continued harping on union squeezing and lack of corporate power is ridiculous. They have all the power, that's why they were able to just leave in the first place.

you couldn't be more wrong about this place, but apparently that fits the trend.

Be sure to let us know where you land with all the thinkers. Maybe we can visit there in an audit mode to learn.

your final dig about the corporation is still absurd. Maybe where everyone is more enlightened they'll buy the corporate villain garbage. You might try some sites with *.ussr extensions. They'll buy that the working man is the basis of all good.
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#61
#61
you couldn't be more wrong about this place, but apparently that fits the trend.

Be sure to let us know where you land with all the thinkers. Maybe we can visit there in an audit mode to learn.

your final dig about the corporation is still absurd. Maybe where everyone is more enlightened they'll buy the corporate villain garbage. You might try some sites with *.ussr extensions. They'll buy that the working man is the basis of all good.
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Yeah I'm sure governments that want complete state control with no regard for anyone but themselves are exactly what I'm looking for, the USSR was so great for the working man. I haven't painted corporates as villains either, I've simply pointed out that in power relationships they have it. The other thing I've pointed out is that mismanagement is mismanagement. That proclaiming victory in an argument where your defacto entity simply isn't defacto is absurd. If we shifted away from that I can assure you it was when you began attacking that mythical "liberal agenda" that ruins everyone. Also, I think the number of threads proclaiming the end of America and the destruction of "our way of life" clearly illustrates the slant of this board. I'm fine with the slant, but the pinko commie comments are misinformed and in bad taste. Proclaiming yourself the victor is not the same thing as being the victor. There is no winner.
 
#62
#62
Yeah I'm sure governments that want complete state control with no regard for anyone but themselves are exactly what I'm looking for, the USSR was so great for the working man. I haven't painted corporates as villains either, I've simply pointed out that in power relationships they have it. The other thing I've pointed out is that mismanagement is mismanagement. That proclaiming victory in an argument where your defacto entity simply isn't defacto is absurd. If we shifted away from that I can assure you it was when you began attacking that mythical "liberal agenda" that ruins everyone. Also, I think the number of threads proclaiming the end of America and the destruction of "our way of life" clearly illustrates the slant of this board. I'm fine with the slant, but the pinko commie comments are misinformed and in bad taste. Proclaiming yourself the victor is not the same thing as being the victor. There is no winner.
I haven't proclaimed victory. I've said you know nothing about business and wished you well on other sites where the people are more informed. Conservatives who find unions an anathema to the capitalist way are simply not as sharp and you and your thinking ilk.

We're all just a bunch of backwoods redneck, knee jerkers around here without the capacity to reason through poor management and power struggles in corporations. Maybe we should hearken back to the glory days of the unions, when they were truly helping laborers and I could learn a few things.
 
#63
#63
Is someone in here defending the UAW? Look no further than the management/leaders of that outfit and you have your answer.
 
#64
#64
Is someone in here defending the UAW? Look no further than the management/leaders of that outfit and you have your answer.

I'm not defending the UAW, I'm saying that you cannot place the total blame on them for the destruction of the American Auto Industry.
 
#66
#66
I haven't proclaimed victory. I've said you know nothing about business and wished you well on other sites where the people are more informed. Conservatives who find unions an anathema to the capitalist way are simply not as sharp and you and your thinking ilk.

We're all just a bunch of backwoods redneck, knee jerkers around here without the capacity to reason through poor management and power struggles in corporations. Maybe we should hearken back to the glory days of the unions, when they were truly helping laborers and I could learn a few things.

I know plenty about business. Your view on my knowledge is completely irrelevant to the point at hand because that is your proclamation of victory (which is ironic because you're accusing me of the same thing). It is a weak argument to attack me on things other than my points. You've ignored multiple comments, examples, and suggestions for things besides unions that have been a problem. That doesn't absolve unions of their part in the play, but I will continue to point out they are not the defacto reason our industry is failing.
 
#67
#67
I know plenty about business. Your view on my knowledge is completely irrelevant to the point at hand because that is your proclamation of victory (which is ironic because you're accusing me of the same thing). It is a weak argument to attack me on things other than my points. You've ignored multiple comments, examples, and suggestions for things besides unions that have been a problem. That doesn't absolve unions of their part in the play, but I will continue to point out they are not the defacto reason our industry is failing.

your other points are merely side shows to the expense to operate the companies due to union robbery. I told you to look at their income statements and balance sheets for your answer. You didn't and probably can't from what I've seen here. The glaring answer is obvious when you do the homework. I can appreciate your incorrect arguments about management and product mix, but competition was the ultimate killer. Inability to compete with more nimble, better operated and more financially viable companies ended the reign of the industry we invented.

De facto has been used a lot here, but I'm reasonably certain that the Latin has it in two words.
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#68
#68
Oh please, as if I'm talking about my intelligence being greater. I'm referring to the handshaking and hugs because there is no political debate here. How exciting it must be to come on here to talk politics and continually be in agreement with everything everyone says, and on the one occasion that someone "different" shows up that you can just be completely rude to them. I can say the same thing about you, that your lack of understanding about the way the market effects people has blinded you to big business backing to the point where they can never be wrong or accept any wrong doing. I don't want the reigns to a company either, but at least I'm aware enough to know when I'm making a bad deal (IE the retarded health care package while I attempt to destroy methods that would relieve me of that burden, or my continued partnership with an industry that America lacks resources for, or the many other things I've pointed out). Your continued harping on union squeezing and lack of corporate power is ridiculous. They have all the power, that's why they were able to just leave in the first place.


I don't know about others, but I have had more knock down drag out debates on here than I have had handshakes and hugs. I am an Obama supporter but what BPV says concerning auto unions in the U.S. makes much sense IMO.
 
#69
#69
I'm aware of the ridiculous sums of money that the unions have made, but at the same time they are also part of the reason the United States was able to even develop a large middle-class after WWII. But, Ford does things like pay Mulally $28M for 4 months of work so innocent they are not. I have never denied the effect of union workers, but the Big (2 and half I guess now if we figure Chrysler being purchased at some point) have had over 50 years to address the competitive issue. GM has had something like 40 years of bad cars, and that isn't a management issue? Chrysler hires a guy who is effectively fired from Home Depot for ruining them, and now look where they are. At the very least they should have pushed for tariffs on foreign cars.

The fact that the industry got behind big oil is clearly a mistake at this point as well, if you stopped marketing tank mobiles and went for less expensive cars with more fuel efficiency, or new technologies that you could sell for less you wouldn't be in this position either. The main problem for car manufacturers is they ran under an unsustainable economic model that the US no longer has the resources to support. The fact that they maintain a failed business model, marketing strategy, production base, and sales strategy are all completely important to their bankruptcy. These are not "incorrect arguments," they are legitimate points that illustrate that the issues faced by the big 3 are not as easily couched into one single determinant factor.

I recognize that they have an unfavorable legacy issue, but they also negotiated those contracts on a model that won them money hand-over-fist which set the precedence for today's atmosphere. Even the unions recognize that the current model of production simply isn't cutting it, as they have been making concessions on these issues since the 80s, and at this point have negotiated salaries around the same base pay of the Japanese manufacturers. To me it seems like the real problem is the fact that they allowed foreign industry to infiltrate their consumer base while failing to make moves to maintain their competitive edge by effectively pushing foreign autos out, making a better product, or at least forcing foreign manufacturers' car pricing to a similar market value. In addition, our manufacturers completely missed the efficiency and hybrid market, and it's killing them now. They had the opportunity to take the lead, and both GM and Ford cut the funding for those programs and nixed them. They were able to listen to their base when Americans never imagined another oil crisis, but their inability to adapt to market changes in a timely fashion reeks of incompetence at multiple levels.
 
#70
#70
#75
#75
I have a question.

If Ford was to uproot and move its operations down to Mississippi, Texas, or somewhere in the south, would they still have to honor the Unions?
 

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