So the Tuohy's were phonies (Michael Oher)

[Cod]

This statement is ridiculous. You need to educate yourself. First thing you need to do is look up what white savior complex or white saviorism is.

So.... if he was white you would have no issues with it??

Not true, he was already being recruited by multiple schools when the Tuohy’s showed up. Even without them he would have gone to an elite program (probably TN) and would make it to the NFL

In other words the Tuohy's were doing what ever other school was trying to do with him?? A lot of whataboutisms in there....

 

[GroverCleveland]

This statement is ridiculous. You need to educate yourself. First thing you need to do is look up what white savior complex or white saviorism is.

Both of you are being ridiculous. Making definitive statements about what someone would have been, given different circumstances, is fraught with problems, but "white saviour complex?" The guy spending his formulative years with a financially successful family and sees how the game works could very well have positioned him to know how wealth is managed. I'm not saying it did, but statistically, I think he's in the significantly smaller group of those who have retained what they made in the NFL.

IF it is true he learned what it meant to manage money in the relationship with the Touhy's, what the h#ll does "White Savior Complex" have to do with it? What about "Know How to Not Piss Away Your Money Complex?" Because in neighborhoods he was initially in, they have a "Piss Away Any Extra Money As Fast As You Can Complex."

 

[Vols All Day]

Both of you are being ridiculous. Making definitive statements about what someone would have been, given different circumstances, is fraught with problems, but "white saviour complex?" The guy spending his formulative years with a financially successful family and sees how the game works could very well have positioned him to know how wealth is managed. I'm not saying it did, but statistically, I think he's in the significantly smaller group of those who have retained what they made in the NFL.

IF it is true he learned what it meant to manage money in the relationship with the Touhy's, what the h#ll does "White Savior Complex" have to do with it? What about "Know How to Not Piss Away Your Money Complex?" Because in neighborhoods he was initially in, they have a "Piss Away Any Extra Money As Fast As You Can Complex."

You are doing a whole lot of assuming here. Your statement has a whole lot of white saviorism theory in it. Michael Oher only stayed with the Touhy's one year, so how could he be spending his formulative years with them. You are attempting to paint them as savior's which the evidence shows they are not. If they were attempting to help Michael why not allow him to go where he wanted to go and why get a conservatorship.

 

[Nerwen Aldarion]

So.... if he was white you would have no issues with it??




In other words the Tuohy's were doing what ever other school was trying to do with him?? A lot of whataboutisms in there....

No you said he would be nothing without them, I pointed out that he didn’t actually need them to succeed.

 

[Volunteer_Kirby]

Anyone see the quote from Michael Lewis? That's Sean Tuohys friend, classmate, and author of Blindside.

Basically implied the behavior from Oher stems from CTE. Showing his true colors...

 

[BowlBrother85]

Anyone see the quote from Michael Lewis? That's Sean Tuohys friend, classmate, and author of Blindside.

Basically implied the behavior from Oher stems from CTE. Showing his true colors...

I didn't know the author of "The Blind Side" had a pre-existing friendship with the Tuohy's, but it makes perfect sense that he did. It presented them too much as being the altruistic perfect family.

 

[Volunteer_Kirby]

I didn't know the author of "The Blind Side" had a pre-existing friendship with the Tuohy's, but it makes perfect sense that he did. It presented them too much as being the altruistic perfect family.

Basically everyone involved here, including Hugh Freeze, are siding with the Tuohy's. All are saying it's a misunderstanding and the Tuohy's are up-standing people.

Seems to me the other side is trying to keep a lid on the recruitment/exploitment narrative, while Oher is trying to do the opposite. Frankly, I think it's good that these people are being exposed.

We all know they profited immensely from the popularity of the movie. The non-profits that they profit from (as Pres & VP) would be nothing without the help of that movie/book. 10 mil since 2010 yet only 20% of revenue spent on "charitable efforts".

Apparently Mrs Tuohy charges approx 30-50k for her motivation talks. You think a rich interior designer housewife is worthy of that price? Not a chance. The Tuohys are scum.

 

[GroverCleveland]

You are doing a whole lot of assuming here. Your statement has a whole lot of white saviorism theory in it. Michael Oher only stayed with the Touhy's one year, so how could he be spending his formulative years with them. You are attempting to paint them as savior's which the evidence shows they are not. If they were attempting to help Michael why not allow him to go where he wanted to go and why get a conservatorship.

Not sure what I "assumed" because I used a number of "IFs" you apparently did not understand, but let's go over what your statement assumes for a second:

1) He only lived with the Touhys and was exposed to them and their way of life for a single year and assume he never saw or had anything to do with them again after enrolling at Ole Miss.
2) You assume I said the Touhys were saviors. Suggest you re-read my post and point it out where I said that.
3) You assume without the Touhys, his life would be much better.
4) You assume Michael did not want to attend Ole Miss without the Touhys. Possible, but again you are assuming that to be true. If you were a close personal friend of Michael's at that time, I retract this point. Something, however, tells me you know as much about it as I do which is diddly-squat.
5) You assume Michael's exposure to a financially successful nuclear family had no positive effect upon him.
6) You assume I'm the Touhy's lawyer or apparently know them intimately because you're asking me why get a conservatorship. I have no freaking idea and care not to speculate or assume anything.

All, and I mean ALL, I tried to point out is that exposure to a successful family like the Touhys instead of remaining in foster homes and/or with his crackhead mother was likely a positive thing. I did assume you would know enough about social outcomes to know that the probability of that kind of exposure is a higher predictor of success. However, if you happen to have data that indicates living in the hood of Memphis, Tennessee has a higher probability of success in life than that of wealthy nuclear families, please share.

 

[Cod]

No you said he would be nothing without them, I pointed out that he didn’t actually need them to succeed.

Never said he would be nothing..... everyone needs someone to succeed his family was not going to help him succeed.

But you're right, the Tuohy's are **** **** people, Oher would have been better off left alone and just HOPING that something happens for him....he was in such a good place at that time, in the right surroundings and everything the Tuohy's took advantage of this poor boy and he is a victim.

This is insane....

With the Tuohy's.... his net worth is 16-25 Mil
Without the Tuohy's his net worth is probably a victim of his surroundings, prison, dead, alive.....who knows but definitely no where near 16-25 Mil.

 

[Gandalf]

This statement is ridiculous. You need to educate yourself. First thing you need to do is look up what white savior complex or white saviorism is.

But the reality is that many people DO need a savior. Whether its a helping hand, an internship, a top coach or mentor or a flat out sponsorship - that can completely make the difference in a person succeeding or failing. Nothing to do with race.

Thing is there are a lot of people who want to take from others but not have to be grateful for it. You need to educate yourself and look up what victim mentality is.

I have no idea if Tuohys were motivated by good or nefarious intentions or a mix of them and I dont know much about the story outside of the movie - but without them, I suspect Oher would never have gotten to the NFL in the first place.

 

[Nerwen Aldarion]

Never said he would be nothing..... everyone needs someone to succeed his family was not going to help him succeed.

But you're right, the Tuohy's are **** **** people, Oher would have been better off left alone and just HOPING that something happens for him....he was in such a good place at that time, in the right surroundings and everything the Tuohy's took advantage of this poor boy and he is a victim.

Don’t know if your last paragraph is sarcastic or not. But here’s some facts.

He wasn’t picked up on the streets by the Tuohy’s. He was already enrolled in there son’s high school, already the star player in the football team and being taken care of by multiple families. It’s true, he didn’t have a permanent home at the time but he wasn’t living on a park bench, there was a circle of families that took turns housing and feeding him.

Enter the Tuohy’s, they offered a permanent home after all of this. I don’t know their motivations, were they genuine or did they see a star football player they could get into their alma mater? I don’t know.

But the point is that with or without them, he would have almost certainly still gotten into an A list football program and moved on to the NFL. The difference is that without the Tuohy’s there wouldn’t have been a conservatorship and he would have been in charge of his own finances and legal affairs.

I’m just pointing out that the Tuohy’s benefited more from this arrangement than he did.

 

[woodpusher]

Did the school offer him a scholarship or something? You'd think they'd have tried harder to keep him academically eligible.

 

[Gandalf]

Don’t know if your last paragraph is sarcastic or not. But here’s some facts.

He wasn’t picked up on the streets by the Tuohy’s. He was already enrolled in there son’s high school, already the star player in the football team and being taken care of by multiple families. It’s true, he didn’t have a permanent home at the time but he wasn’t living on a park bench, there was a circle of families that took turns housing and feeding him.

Enter the Tuohy’s, they offered a permanent home after all of this. I don’t know their motivations, were they genuine or did they see a star football player they could get into their alma mater? I don’t know.

But the point is that with or without them, he would have almost certainly still gotten into an A list football program and moved on to the NFL. The difference is that without the Tuohy’s there wouldn’t have been a conservatorship and he would have been in charge of his own finances and legal affairs.

I’m just pointing out that the Tuohy’s benefited more from this arrangement than he did.

The person who did him the most good is the one who got him into Briarcrest, who just happened to have a coach named Hugh Freeze.

Here is some write up on how that happened.
How did Michael Oher enter Memphis private school? Academic history of Blind Side star explored

Note it never mentions Tuohy BUT they may well have been influential in getting the school to keep him in spite of his grades. Freeze, probably also had a hand.

When Oher is butt hurt with the movie depicting him as needing the Touhy's to help him academically, note that article states "An aptitude test he took in eighth grade placed his learning ability in the sixth percentile. At 16, he had an I.Q. of 80."

If you look behind the lines there with the "online classes at BYU" to get his grade point average up enough where Briarcrest would allow him to play, etc you can see the Tuohy's hand likely moving.

They are sharp people who were majorly successful long before they met Oher. Did they take actions to help Briarcrest and then Ol Miss or because they deeply cared about Oher? We will never know but for a fact, Oher benefited from their involvement and steady hand.

Physically talented but dumb as a brick and in a bad home situation, Oher should be eternally grateful for the full bunch of people who helped him obtain a life far beyond what would have been expected from others in his situation.

 

[05_never_again]

In related news, Michael Lewis is rapidly blowing up his credibility.

'Blind Side' author Michael Lewis suggests catalyst behind Michael Oher lawsuit: 'Violence and aggression'

"Blind Side" author Michael Lewis again commented on the Michael Oher lawsuit against the Tuohy family and suggested that "violence and aggression" were part of the reason behind it.

www.foxnews.com

 

[VolNExile]

…When Oher is butt hurt with the movie depicting him as needing the Touhy's to help him academically, note that article states "An aptitude test he took in eighth grade placed his learning ability in the sixth percentile. At 16, he had an I.Q. of 80." …

So, as someone who went to a lah-de-dah private K-12 school (Punahou School in Honolulu), pretty much killed every standardized test that came my way, and sent three kids to/through Webb School of Knoxville with the usual college admissions tests, I’m pretty damn familiar with the aptitude/ admissions tests that are given to applicants.

They are VERY skewed in favor of kids from academically privileged backgrounds. They are NOT IQ tests (which are bad enough in general at evaluating kids from non-white/non-middle-class backgrounds.) Their questions are assuming an educationally enriched background where you have read (=been assigned work in classroom) well-written fiction and non-fiction works and taught how to analyze them for themes and sub-themes. In terms of math “aptitude,” you’re probably already taking at least algebra in 8th grade, or pre-algebra at a minimum.

If you DON’T know how to break down and analyze literature, and you CAN’T attack á mathematical problem that you’ve never seen before, you’re gonna score in a very low percentile.

Because no one ever told you this stuff. (Note: for a test in 8th grade, you are most likely 11-12 years old.)

Good school admission people know this and have additional ways of evaluating applicants (if they want to), which may or may not include looking at their football or basketball skillz. What else is important for school and life success? Leadership ability? Empathy? Resilience? An understanding and ability to work with people from different backgrounds?

I would also score in the 6th percentile or so if I were plunked in a fishing boat, told to catch fish, and asked to identify what I caught, in the unlikely event that I caught anything at all. (I do want to learn this one day lol.)

Intelligence tests are sketchy as hell, and that’s not what he took (per the article.) He took an APTITUDE test, which *attempts* to predict how well you’ll do in a specific situation, in this case a private school with mostly students from white, middle-upper class, well-educated kids.

WTH else did you think would happen?

 

[vollygirl]

So, as someone who went to a lah-de-dah private K-12 school (Punahou School in Honolulu), pretty much killed every standardized test that came my way, and sent three kids to/through Webb School of Knoxville with the usual college admissions tests, I’m pretty damn familiar with the aptitude/ admissions tests that are given to applicants.

They are VERY skewed in favor of kids from academically privileged backgrounds. They are NOT IQ tests (which are bad enough in general at evaluating kids from non-white/non-middle-class backgrounds.) Their questions are assuming an educationally enriched background where you have read (=been assigned work in classroom) well-written fiction and non-fiction works and taught how to analyze them for themes and sub-themes. In terms of math “aptitude,” you’re probably already taking at least algebra in 8th grade, or pre-algebra at a minimum.

If you DON’T know how to break down and analyze literature, and you CAN’T attack á mathematical problem that you’ve never seen before, you’re gonna score in a very low percentile.

Because no one ever told you this stuff. (Note: for a test in 8th grade, you are most likely 11-12 years old.)

Good school admission people know this and have additional ways of evaluating applicants (if they want to), which may or may not include looking at their football or basketball skillz. What else is important for school and life success? Leadership ability? Empathy? Resilience? An understanding and ability to work with people from different backgrounds?

I would also score in the 6th percentile or so if I were plunked in a fishing boat, told to catch fish, and asked to identify what I caught, in the unlikely event that I caught anything at all. (I do want to learn this one day lol.)

Intelligence tests are sketchy as hell, and that’s not what he took (per the article.) He took an APTITUDE test, which *attempts* to predict how well you’ll do in a specific situation, in this case a private school with mostly students from white, middle-upper class, well-educated kids.

WTH else did you think would happen?

I love it when you hold court.

 

[VolNExile]

I love it when you hold court.

lol

I try to restrain

 

[Charlie Kelly]

So, as someone who went to a lah-de-dah private K-12 school (Punahou School in Honolulu), pretty much killed every standardized test that came my way, and sent three kids to/through Webb School of Knoxville with the usual college admissions tests, I’m pretty damn familiar with the aptitude/ admissions tests that are given to applicants.

They are VERY skewed in favor of kids from academically privileged backgrounds. They are NOT IQ tests (which are bad enough in general at evaluating kids from non-white/non-middle-class backgrounds.) Their questions are assuming an educationally enriched background where you have read (=been assigned work in classroom) well-written fiction and non-fiction works and taught how to analyze them for themes and sub-themes. In terms of math “aptitude,” you’re probably already taking at least algebra in 8th grade, or pre-algebra at a minimum.

If you DON’T know how to break down and analyze literature, and you CAN’T attack á mathematical problem that you’ve never seen before, you’re gonna score in a very low percentile.

Because no one ever told you this stuff. (Note: for a test in 8th grade, you are most likely 11-12 years old.)

Good school admission people know this and have additional ways of evaluating applicants (if they want to), which may or may not include looking at their football or basketball skillz. What else is important for school and life success? Leadership ability? Empathy? Resilience? An understanding and ability to work with people from different backgrounds?

I would also score in the 6th percentile or so if I were plunked in a fishing boat, told to catch fish, and asked to identify what I caught, in the unlikely event that I caught anything at all. (I do want to learn this one day lol.)

Intelligence tests are sketchy as hell, and that’s not what he took (per the article.) He took an APTITUDE test, which *attempts* to predict how well you’ll do in a specific situation, in this case a private school with mostly students from white, middle-upper class, well-educated kids.

WTH else did you think would happen?

Excellent response VNE. As someone who has spent over a decade in higher academia, I can second this.

Symbols and the myriad of meanings our minds supply them with are not the same thing. Any sort of “intelligence test” is going to implicitly supply a definition of intelligence by whomever happens to be designing the process of quantification, thus making the entire process and subsequent results subjective in nature. In others words, it’s a very roundabout and convoluted way of expressing someone’s opinion on not only “what intelligence is” but also “how much of it someone has”. Despite popular opinion, an IQ test is not a statement of fact about how much intelligence someone possesses.

If you believe that an IQ test is an accurate way of quantifying intelligence, then congratulations: you more or less agree with Alfred Binet’s definition of intelligence (among others). I happen to be someone who believes that what IQ does measure fairly accurately are pattern recognition and analytic ability, two traits highly valued by corporations, militaries, educational institutions and just about any other organizational power structure you can think of. I don’t think it is anywhere close to being a complete definition of intelligence. In fact, most of the people I’ve met who’ve scored very highly on an IQ test tend to pay for it in other areas (lack of social awareness seems to be the most common).

 

[VolNExile]

... In fact, most of the people I’ve met who’ve scored very highly on an IQ test tend to pay for it in other areas (lack of social awareness seems to be the most common)…

lol, have we met?

Representing the Aspies here!

Also (not that I believe in Myers-Briggs, but it’s entertaining) INTPs. I always warned my co-workers.

 

[Charlie Kelly]

lol, have we met?

Representing the Aspies here!

Also (not that I believe in Myers-Briggs, but it’s entertaining) INTPs. I always warned my co-workers.

Haha I’m INTP also if it makes you feel any better. Hope you’ve been well VNE; it’s been some time.

Not sure how much credence I give to psychological analysis. I’m not sure it’s much more than people projecting their own psychologies onto their environment (ie: Freud assuming everything could be explained through sexual inclinations/desires without realizing he only believed that because that’s what ruled him). Either way, it sure is fun to play around with. People tell themselves all sorts of things just to get through the day.

 

[VolNExile]

Haha I’m INTP also if it makes you feel any better. Hope you’ve been well VNE; it’s been some time.

Not sure how much credence I give to psychological analysis. I’m not sure it’s much more than people projecting their own psychologies onto their environment (ie: Freud assuming everything could be explained through sexual inclinations/desires without realizing he only believed that because that’s what ruled him). Either way, it sure is fun to play around with. People tell themselves all sorts of things just to get through the day.

I figure that Myers-Briggs inventories essentially ask people to describe themselves, so it’s not surprising that many of us find the results dead on. Where it falls apart (to me) is in any predictive value, especially in the workplace. Waaay too many variables going on there!

But it was useful (to me) to find that I am an introvert, despite how noisy I can be socially, and to understand why I dread meeting people and why all my energy is sucked out of me with extended social interaction. There’s something to be said for having some of your weirdness normalized. Sort of, “Oh, ok, that’s a thing, so I can stop fighting it and just work around it.” <dunno>

Glad to hear from you again! It has been A While since the Grumours days, hasn’t it?

 

[Charlie Kelly]

I figure that Myers-Briggs inventories essentially ask people to describe themselves, so it’s not surprising that many of us find the results dead on. Where it falls apart (to me) is in any predictive value, especially in the workplace. Waaay too many variables going on there!

But it was useful (to me) to find that I am an introvert, despite how noisy I can be socially, and to understand why I dread meeting people and why all my energy is sucked out of me with extended social interaction. There’s something to be said for having some of your weirdness normalized. Sort of, “Oh, ok, that’s a thing, so I can stop fighting it and just work around it.” <dunno>

Glad to hear from you again! It has been A While since the Grumours days, hasn’t it?

Yeah that’s kind of what I was getting at with my whole intelligence spiel. I get enough of that nonsense in academia these days. Most people don’t realize that any method of quantification is inherently subjective in nature (as some one is doing the quantifying). In a sense, it’s as if our minds are the ones that superimpose the concept of number onto our realities. Ie: Someone decides A is different from B; this judgement is reducible to their point of view; therefore it is inherently subjective. It is not an objective statement of fact. This insight can be extrapolated out to apply to any mathematical procedure.

With psychological tests this usually just ends up with people having their self description sorted into various types by an obscure algorithmic procedure. So yeah, it more or less just re-words and then classifies what we told it. But we do tend to find some comfort in our self descriptions. That’s probably why we latched onto them in the first place.

And I’ve been well, just trying to stay busy. How about you? The Grumours thread feels like it was just yesterday! All we need is Ape and Lexi and the gang will be back together haha.

 

[VolNExile]

Yeah that’s kind of what I was getting at with my whole intelligence spiel. I get enough of that nonsense in academia these days. Most people don’t realize that any method of quantification is inherently subjective in nature (as some one is doing the quantifying). In a sense, it’s as if our minds are the ones that superimpose the concept of number onto our realities. Ie: Someone decides A is different from B; this judgement is reducible to their point of view; therefore it is inherently subjective. It is not an objective statement of fact. This insight can be extrapolated out to apply to any mathematical procedure.

With psychological tests this usually just ends up with people having their self description sorted into various types by an obscure algorithmic procedure. So yeah, it more or less just re-words and then classifies what we told it. But we do tend to find some comfort in our self descriptions. That’s probably why we latched onto them in the first place.

And I’ve been well, just trying to stay busy. How about you? The Grumours thread feels like it was just yesterday! All we need is Ape and Lexi and the gang will be back together haha.

Chugging along here. I retired from the VA after my mom had The Big Fall, and I moved her here, right before Covid; she’s in assisted living with advanced dementia and just turned 96. Hubs and I and all the chirren (and 2 grandchirren) are doing well. I’ve gone back to school to get my BS in Ecology and Environmental Biology, so I spend my days united with Zoomers against Gen X and Millennials. lol

I turn 69 next week.

 

[Charlie Kelly]

Chugging along here. I retired from the VA after my mom had The Big Fall, and I moved her here, right before Covid; she’s in assisted living with advanced dementia and just turned 96. Hubs and I and all the chirren (and 2 grandchirren) are doing well. I’ve gone back to school to get my BS in Ecology and Environmental Biology, so I spend my days united with Zoomers against Gen X and Millennials. lol

I turn 69 next week.

Aw I’m sorry to hear about your mother. 96 is a long time though! Glad everyone else is alright. Hopefully retirement is treating you well. And happy early birthday

It looks like you and I are in the same boat though. I’m also back at school finishing a second degree (and then starting a third immediately after haha). You picked a great field of study, by the way. My first degree was in Biology. And I’m with you on Gen Z. As a millennial myself, I can say with a fair degree of certainty that they are definitely a different breed than us. Things have changed a lot in the past 10 years.

 

[VolNExile]

Aw I’m sorry to hear about your mother. 96 is a long time though! Glad everyone else is alright. Hopefully retirement is treating you well. And happy early birthday

It looks like you and I are in the same boat though. I’m also back at school finishing a second degree (and then starting a third immediately after haha). You picked a great field of study, by the way. My first degree was in Biology. And I’m with you on Gen Z. As a millennial myself, I can say with a fair degree of certainty that they are definitely a different breed than us. Things have changed a lot in the past 10 years.

It’s really interesting to see how passive (in a hopeful way; not a shrug-off way) so many Zoomers are, depending on how their HS years went during Covid (remote vs. in-person.) They seem to need a lot of hand-holding and reassurance (certainly not all of them, but it’s there, and my professors generally confirm.) Most of them do seem to bloom after a semester or so.

IIRC, my generation was much more (undeservedly) self-confident and obnoxious when we hit college.