So, what is UConn doing to prevent turnovers which we aren't?

[Amb3096]

lol:

:hmm:

Must say I haven't quite understood the lack of love for Ariel. She was great this year. Reynolds will be a solid player for Tennessee no doubt, but the team is at its best when Ariel is running the point.

 

[Sandvol]

Must say I haven't quite understood the lack of love for Ariel. She was great this year. Reynolds will be a solid player for Tennessee no doubt, but the team is at its best when Ariel is running the point.

People get enamored with Ariel's 3 point shooting and she's very good at that. But, penetrating, passing, distributing, running the offense, defending, height, intimidation, etc. she doesn't have. I personally think she'd be a much better two. If you're the other team's point guard you'd much rather have Ariel defending you than Reynolds or Carter.

 

[Sandvol]

Without looking into it, I'm going to guess that Holly had way more talent her first two years than Geno did. Plus, she's older...so time isn't necessarily on her side.

E8 her first year isn't too bad, but there were no excuses for the collapse against MD this year. The team somehow managed to make Alyssa Thomas look EVEN BETTER than she is! That was a classic case of not being able to man up against the big boys.

I don't see her making excuses and she doesn't have to. Yes I understand Holly has way more talent but the fact is Luigi didn't get them there and stay there. They fell back a couple of times. And, I think it is much tougher to get there now than in Luigi's time. Holly deserves time to develop her self and her team. I wasn't necessarily enthusiastic about her appointment but now that she's the coach she's going to get time so we might as well watch and hope for the best. She's had two years. She's recruiting pretty well. I think she'll make a Final Four this year. As long as UCONN keeps getting the best player Bird, Taurasi, Moore, Lewis, Stewart, etc. he is going to be difficult to beat. However, I think we have two players who were the best in their class in Tucker and Nared. Let's see how this plays out.

 

[Sandvol]

I think the main factor is if you aren't a good passer with a very high basketball IQ ... you won't be recruited by UConn.

Tennessee tends to recruit skill over basketball IQ.

I think Pat was somewhat guilty of that but several of these recent recruits of Holly's have both IQ and skill.

 

[volcrazy89]

People get enamored with Ariel's 3 point shooting and she's very good at that. But, penetrating, passing, distributing, running the offense, defending, height, intimidation, etc. she doesn't have. I personally think she'd be a much better two.

You're obviously watching a totally different player than I am, and that's a rather dumb statement considering her a/to ratio is the best on the team by a rather large margin. Ariel is an exquisite passer and is BY FAR the best player on the team at running the offense.

I will say this: I think Reynolds has a MUCH brighter future at PG than Carter does. It's plain to see that Carter is not mentally suited to thrive at PG. She is not aggressive at all and dribbles WAY too much.

 

[volcrazy89]

And how does Ariel's defense have ANYTHING to do with her playing SG instead of PG? Unless I'm missing something, all five positions on the floor have to guard someone. Did I miss the part where shooting guards don't have to defend someone? And besides that, there is no rule saying that a player has to play the same position on both sides of the ball.

 

[Amb3096]

I don't see her making excuses and she doesn't have to. Yes I understand Holly has way more talent but the fact is Luigi didn't get them there and stay there. They fell back a couple of times. And, I think it is much tougher to get there now than in Luigi's time. Holly deserves time to develop her self and her team. I wasn't necessarily enthusiastic about her appointment but now that she's the coach she's going to get time so we might as well watch and hope for the best. She's had two years. She's recruiting pretty well. I think she'll make a Final Four this year. As long as UCONN keeps getting the best player Bird, Taurasi, Moore, Lewis, Stewart, etc. he is going to be difficult to beat. However, I think we have two players who were the best in their class in Tucker and Nared. Let's see how this plays out.

I personally think that it's harder to go to a program with no history of success and turn it into probably the greatest program ever...as opposed to inheriting a dynasty and a roster full of AA players.

Not sure what you've see to elevate Nared and Tucker to such lofty heights. I don't think a single recruiting agency had them as the best in their classes.

 

[Amb3096]

People get enamored with Ariel's 3 point shooting and she's very good at that. But, penetrating, passing, distributing, running the offense, defending, height, intimidation, etc. she doesn't have. I personally think she'd be a much better two. If you're the other team's point guard you'd much rather have Ariel defending you than Reynolds or Carter.

3 pt shooting - Ariel
Passing - Ariel
Distributing - Ariel
Running the offense - Ariel
Driving and scoring - Ariel
Driving and dishing - Ariel

Ariel's assist numbers on the season blows Carter's out of the water. She had 40% more assists playing nearly half as many games as Carter did.

She's not the best defender on the team, but neither is Reynolds. Carter is a better defender, but she doesn't pass nearly as well as Ariel and she makes it easier for teams to bottle up Harrison (and Simmons this year) because she (nor Burdick) will shoot unless they absolutely must.

 

[tonyc]

Ive been reading these threads and comparisons and players traveling, turnover prone, not good penetrators etc. My question is why doesnt the coaching staff work with the players and teach them why they are making mistakes and how to correct it? Your making comparisons to UConn? Well Geno teaches his players how to overcome their mistakes and he drills them. KML was known as an outside shooter. Now she does inside, rebounds and has a floater. Dolsen had no outside shot and was not physical she is now because she was taught how to. Tenn has the talent they are lacking the proper teaching of fundamentals. Even is Tenn gets DeShields things wont get better until the team is taught the right way to do things.

 

[Voluble2]

However, I think we have two players who were the best in their class in Tucker and Nared. Let's see how this plays out.

DeShields was in the same class as Tucker. I doubt Tucker is better, but she was top five in most ratings. Nared seems like a scorer, but that was all I saw in the all-star game, which admittedly wasn't much of a sample. Her rebounding was atrocious and she shied away from contact a lot. She was very smooth with the ball though.

Middleton absolutely had her lunch eaten in that same game. She was on a lower level as far as athleticism went and turned the ball over more often than she didn't. That is exactly what we don't need. I am rooting for her and hopefully that game was a fluke.

But I have doubts she will be the sort of player we need. I can't see her stopping anyone on defense. She is a bit slow, a bit undersized and has short arms even for her height. She seems like one of those kids who works really hard and gets every bit possible out of their talent (thus winning the skills challenge), but ultimately has too big a deficit to make up athletically. My bet is she will look great against average teams, but will be a liability against the better ones.

The point is that we will have a lot of talent, but all of them have pretty big holes in their games and aren't complete players. We also look like we won't have much of a post game since the player mix is bad in future years based on what we have coming in. If Holly doesn't make it I think her not signing a high level post in this class will be a large part of the reason why. We really needed a couple and our failure there is inexplicable. We will be relying on some freshmen and Mercedes a couple of years down the road. Posts take longer to develop so that is a recipe for failure. Maybe we just thought the posts available in this class were inferior to the next class?

Anyway, we should be able to win a lot of games and be a legit final four contender in the near term with the roster we will have. I think we can legitimately have that expectation for next year. But people are overestimating the surety of it IMO and are piling expectations on too many unproven players.

I will also throw in that if the officiating is anything like we saw last year it really won't matter what the coaches or players do or don't do.

 

[Voluble2]

Ive been reading these threads and comparisons and players traveling, turnover prone, not good penetrators etc. My question is why doesnt the coaching staff work with the players and teach them why they are making mistakes and how to correct it? Your making comparisons to UConn? Well Geno teaches his players how to overcome their mistakes and he drills them.

I think all staffs even at the worst schools work with their players to improve every aspect of their games. I think the vast majority of them run the same drills the same way. The time and energy they spend is regulated by the NCAA and is likely very similar. Which is why I asked the question. What is it exactly that Geno does to improve fundamentals like passing that other teams don't do. Saying he works with his players is not an answer unless you seriously want to argue that other coaches don't do that.

I'm not picking on you since I doubt you choreograph Geno's practices for him, but you see what I am saying. It is likely a question that none of us outsiders can answer with any surety, but it is the key question that teams must ask and answer if they want to beat Geno.

What does that bastard do that the rest of us don't?

My bet is that he is better at spotting exactly what is wrong with a player's game and creating exactly the right remedy. He is probably a better technician. And he has better material to work with. He also instills confidence rather than doubt. But also, once you get a well oiled machine it is easier to integrate new parts and get them to perform at the same high level because they see it in practice every day. Even so, even if my answer were correct it is not all that specific either so we are left wondering.

 

[Sandvol]

You're obviously watching a totally different player than I am, and that's a rather dumb statement considering her a/to ratio is the best on the team by a rather large margin. Ariel is an exquisite passer and is BY FAR the best player on the team at running the offense.

I will say this: I think Reynolds has a MUCH brighter future at PG than Carter does. It's plain to see that Carter is not mentally suited to thrive at PG. She is not aggressive at all and dribbles WAY too much.

I think it's pretty dumb to go by assists to turnover ratio. What's an assist? It's whatever the person keeping the stats thinks an assists is. When Ariel went down all I know is the offense started running better. Who was running the offense? Carter and Reynolds. They are better at distributing the ball, making the offense flow, playing defense, more aggressive on the defensive end.

 

[Sandvol]

And how does Ariel's defense have ANYTHING to do with her playing SG instead of PG? Unless I'm missing something, all five positions on the floor have to guard someone. Did I miss the part where shooting guards don't have to defend someone? And besides that, there is no rule saying that a player has to play the same position on both sides of the ball.

Ask Bruce Pearl? He says the most important position defensively is the point guard. If our point guard can shut down their point guard then you can keep them from getting into their offense. You will get them to go to the two guard to run their offense or to a wing. A scoring point guard isn't even that critical. You need a good defender and ball distributor at the point. Ariel would be a much better two.

 

[Sandvol]

Also, if you look at turnovers which I think is a very important stat for a point guard. Ariel averaged 0.08 turnovers per minute played. Jordan averaged 0.06 and Andraya 0.05 turnovers per minute. So they were just more security conscious which might explain less assists per minute. I think ball security is a lot more important. One advantage Ariel has is she is a great free throw shooter and you want your point guard able to shoot free throws because they get fouled at the end of games. But, they could let her handle the point late in games when the team has a lead. It will be interesting to see how Holly handles it this year. I hope she lets Reynolds and Carter run the point and puts Ariel at the two. I would like to see Reynolds, Carter, Middleton at the point, Massengale, Tucker and Dunbar at the two, Nared, Burdick, and Jones at the three, Harrison and Graves at the four, and Harrison and Russell at the five. They need another post bad. Maybe Moore will come around.

 

[Sandvol]

DeShields was in the same class as Tucker. I doubt Tucker is better, but she was top five in most ratings. Nared seems like a scorer, but that was all I saw in the all-star game, which admittedly wasn't much of a sample. Her rebounding was atrocious and she shied away from contact a lot. She was very smooth with the ball though.

Middleton absolutely had her lunch eaten in that same game. She was on a lower level as far as athleticism went and turned the ball over more often than she didn't. That is exactly what we don't need. I am rooting for her and hopefully that game was a fluke.

But I have doubts she will be the sort of player we need. I can't see her stopping anyone on defense. She is a bit slow, a bit undersized and has short arms even for her height. She seems like one of those kids who works really hard and gets every bit possible out of their talent (thus winning the skills challenge), but ultimately has too big a deficit to make up athletically. My bet is she will look great against average teams, but will be a liability against the better ones.

The point is that we will have a lot of talent, but all of them have pretty big holes in their games and aren't complete players. We also look like we won't have much of a post game since the player mix is bad in future years based on what we have coming in. If Holly doesn't make it I think her not signing a high level post in this class will be a large part of the reason why. We really needed a couple and our failure there is inexplicable. We will be relying on some freshmen and Mercedes a couple of years down the road. Posts take longer to develop so that is a recipe for failure. Maybe we just thought the posts available in this class were inferior to the next class?

Anyway, we should be able to win a lot of games and be a legit final four contender in the near term with the roster we will have. I think we can legitimately have that expectation for next year. But people are overestimating the surety of it IMO and are piling expectations on too many unproven players.

I will also throw in that if the officiating is anything like we saw last year it really won't matter what the coaches or players do or don't do.

DeShields is good but still think Tucker better. Also, with Middleton, I don't think you can judge her based on that street ball All Star game. She is better in an organized game as evidenced by her skills competition prowess. She will be a great floor general. I don't agree with your analysis of Nared at all. Must have been watching a different game. Nared was the most effortless player in the game. Excellent athleticism and great at putting the ball in the hole and just great all around game. Best player on the floor.

 

[Sandvol]

I think all staffs even at the worst schools work with their players to improve every aspect of their games. I think the vast majority of them run the same drills the same way. The time and energy they spend is regulated by the NCAA and is likely very similar. Which is why I asked the question. What is it exactly that Geno does to improve fundamentals like passing that other teams don't do. Saying he works with his players is not an answer unless you seriously want to argue that other coaches don't do that.

I'm not picking on you since I doubt you choreograph Geno's practices for him, but you see what I am saying. It is likely a question that none of us outsiders can answer with any surety, but it is the key question that teams must ask and answer if they want to beat Geno.

What does that bastard do that the rest of us don't?

My bet is that he is better at spotting exactly what is wrong with a player's game and creating exactly the right remedy. He is probably a better technician. And he has better material to work with. He also instills confidence rather than doubt. But also, once you get a well oiled machine it is easier to integrate new parts and get them to perform at the same high level because they see it in practice every day. Even so, even if my answer were correct it is not all that specific either so we are left wondering.

I have no respect for Luigi. He could have gotten to where he is with more integrity.

 

[armchair]

There are a lot of factors that go into coaching, obviously, and that go into building a very good team as opposed to, say, an OK or above average team. Coaches should be excellent leaders and motivators, but some have better leadership skills than others. Some are more demanding than others. The best coaches get the best out of individual players and out of their teams. That can involve personnel decisions, pushing certain motivational buttons with specific players and different buttons with others. Great coaches usually push their players and the teams pretty hard. I would describe Geno has being very much like PS was 20 years ago--he's pretty much a male Summitt clone who also coaches team offense much better than PS did. Ct. is Tennessee in its prime without the turnovers and periods of sloppy play.

 

[Sandvol]

If you look at UCONN's stats the things that really stand out to me is the number of turnovers they cause their opponents, their steals, and the fact that every member of the team except one (Stokes) has a very positive assist to turnover. Several of our players have a very negative assist to turnover. We have to improve ball security drastically. We have to pass and move the ball better and stop the one on one stuff. Also, UCONN shoots free throws well as a team and make a lot of threes.

 

[meekfan]

Geno's practices are suppose to be legendary for their difficulty...What the hell he does must be a secret, because no one talks about it.

Geno the coach is a hell of a coach, the man I don't know.

Some great points Gametime, however I have read on several media sources that he he not only doesn't make his practices a secret, but that he has invited & entertained opposing coaches to his practices. Beats the heck out of me what secret he has

 

[TNnative]

I despise Geno as much as I do any coach in any sport, college or pro, but the fact is that he recruits top talent and develops it. If you look at sheer recruiting, UT and Uconn are almost neck and neck, but he gets a lot more out of his players than Holly does.

Geno cheats. Oh, wait, we knew that.

 

[TNnative]

DeShields is good but still think Tucker better. Also, with Middleton, I don't think you can judge her based on that street ball All Star game. She is better in an organized game as evidenced by her skills competition prowess. She will be a great floor general. I don't agree with your analysis of Nared at all. Must have been watching a different game. Nared was the most effortless player in the game. Excellent athleticism and great at putting the ball in the hole and just great all around game. Best player on the floor.

It doesn't really matter who is better. What does matter is Holly has now reloaded the line up with talent that could compete with the championship teams Pat brought in. And it is very possible it could be a deeper rotation as well. It's a great day for the Lady Vols.

 

[reno tony]

Here is Luigi's record at UCONN. It took him awhile to get it going and then when he finally won a championship he didn't stay there but fell back to Sweet 16. We need to give Holly time to develop as a coach and to put her stamp on the program. By her 5th full year she should have us back to Final Four. If not then we need to reevaluate.




1985–86 Connecticut 12–15 4–12 7th
1986–87 Connecticut 14–13 9–7 T–4th
1987–88 Connecticut 17–11 9–7 5th
1988–89 Connecticut 24–6 13–2 1st NCAA 1st Round
1989–90 Connecticut 25–6 14–2 T–1st NCAA 2nd Round
1990–91 Connecticut 29–5 14–2 1st NCAA Final Four
1991–92 Connecticut 23–11 13–5 T–2nd NCAA 2nd Round
1992–93 Connecticut 18–11 12–6 3rd NCAA 1st Round
1993–94 Connecticut 30–3 17–1 1st NCAA Elite Eight
1994–95 Connecticut 35–0 18–0 1st NCAA Champions
1995–96 Connecticut 34–4 17–1 1st NCAA Final Four
1996–97 Connecticut 33–1 18–0 1st NCAA Elite Eight
1997–98 Connecticut 34–3 17–1 1st NCAA Elite Eight
1998–99 Connecticut 29–5 17–1 T–1st NCAA Sweet Sixteen
1999–2000 Connecticut 36–1 16–0 1st NCAA Champions
2000–01 Connecticut 32–3 15–1 T–1st NCAA Final Four
2001–02 Connecticut 39–0 16–0 1st NCAA Champions
2002–03 Connecticut 37–1 16–0 1st NCAA Champions
2003–04 Connecticut 31–4 14–2 1st NCAA Champions
2004–05 Connecticut 25–8 13–2 T–2nd NCAA Sweet Sixteen
2005–06 Connecticut 32–5 14–2 2nd NCAA Elite Eight
2006–07 Connecticut 32–4 16–0 1st NCAA Elite Eight
2007–08 Connecticut 36–2 17–1 1st NCAA Final Four
2008–09 Connecticut 39–0 16–0 1st NCAA Champions
2009–10 Connecticut 39–0 16–0 1st NCAA Champions
2010–11 Connecticut 36–2 16–0 1st NCAA Final Four
2011–12 Connecticut 33–5 13–3 3rd NCAA Final Four
2012–13 Connecticut 35–4 14–2 2nd NCAA Champions

Are you seriously going to compare the team Geno took over in 1984 with the team Holly got. She should be judged on how she performs with the players she has in the circumstances she has. Comparing her to Pat or Geno and expecting those types of results is unfair to her. Now she will have a team that should be extremely competitive next season and even better after that. Let's judge her on what she does with them.

 

[volcrazy89]

I think it's pretty dumb to go by assists to turnover ratio. What's an assist? It's whatever the person keeping the stats thinks an assists is. When Ariel went down all I know is the offense started running better. Who was running the offense? Carter and Reynolds. They are better at distributing the ball, making the offense flow, playing defense, more aggressive on the defensive end.

How in the ever lovin hell is it "pretty dumb" to go by a/to ratio for a point guard? A/TO ratio is BY FAR the most telling stat for a point guard. I'm going to take a wild guess and say you think it's "pretty dumb" because it shoots a giant hole through your mind numbingly stupid statement.

The offense did not "run better" without Ariel. You thinking freshman Reynolds was anywhere near junior Massengale, who was probably among the five best PGs in the country at the time she got injured, at point guard is so stupid that I wonder if you're just trolling. Seriously. That's seriously so stupid it's hard to put it into words.

Team stats with Ariel playing (19 games):
81.8 ppg
45.38% FGs
17.63 assists per game
17.31 turnovers per game

Team stats without Ariel (16 games):
72.6 ppg
45.04% FGs
12.31 assists per game
14.63 turnovers per game

Yeah, our offense was obviously running so much better after Ariel went out. No change in FG% (basically) but quite a drop in points per game and assists vs. turnovers.

And obviously Ariel was doing something right. She was tops on the team in minutes played per game.

OBTW, Tucker is good, but she isn't as good as Diamond. Another mind-numbingly dumb statement from you.

 

[volcrazy89]

If our point guard can shut down their point guard then you can keep them from getting into their offense.

THERE IS NO RULE THAT STATES A POINT GUARD ON OFFENSE HAS TO GUARD THE OTHER POINT GUARD WHILE ON DEFENSE. WHY THE HELL IS IT SO HARD FOR YOU TO GRASP THIS CONCEPT? Andraya Carter could EASILY start at SG and guard the other team's PG. This isn't exactly rocket science.

 

[DaddyChoc]

THERE IS NO RULE THAT STATES A POINT GUARD ON OFFENSE HAS TO GUARD THE OTHER POINT GUARD WHILE ON DEFENSE. WHY THE HELL IS IT SO HARD FOR YOU TO GRASP THIS CONCEPT? Andraya Carter could EASILY start at SG and guard the other team's PG. This isn't exactly rocket science.

whats up Buddy :salute: