Socialism vs Capitalism

#31
#31
We need a Social Democratic Party in America as they've had in Europe for decades. And still have. The Social Democrats are the 2nd largest party in Germany. Scandinavia has a long social-democratic tradition--which essentially comes down to treating workers and citizens fairly and promoting the concept of egalitarianism--a good thing. Denmark is the most egalitarian country in the world--meaning it has the smallest gap between its poorest people and its richest, with most sitting in the financial middle. That's the IDEAL, friends.

There was a viable socialist movement in America in the early part of the 20th century. It was essentially a labor movement that arose to combat the harsh treatment of workers by industrialists--terrible working conditions and terrible pay. There were major strikes--some violent. Eugene Debs, head of the Socialist Party of America, ran for president five times.

In America we've let conservative pols screw workers--and the country--for 30 years. Capitalism morphed into vulture capitalism--CEOs focused only on the company stock price so they can rake ini bonuses; corrupt boards; scandalous executive compensation packages; layoffs, benefit cuts, private equity firms that sack longtime employees and give them a two-week severance (very common); $10 an hour page--the list goes on. Income equality has grown steadily; the middle class has been steadily shrinking. That leads to social instability--crime and worse. Sadly, middle American--and, yea, it includes Southerners, have enabled vulture capitalism by continuing to vote--stupidly--for Republicans. People work 40 hours a week, come home to their trailer parks--and then vote Republican because....well, I have no idea why they do it. I think it is because they are social conservatives worried about silly issues like abortion and gay marriage -religious types.

Bernie Sanders is a quasi-socialist. He simply wants a better deal for workers--and a single payer health system, which we quite obviously need. We need more pols like him.

Socialism has a bad name in America because it has been stigmatized by conservative pols and interest groups who make it their business to dupe conservative voters. Socialism, the media, unions--conservatives are very good at filling the heads of low-information middle Americans with nonsense. We are headed for trouble if we don't start treating the American worker with more respect. It's all about balance--you want innovators and entrepreneurs to be rewarded, but not excessively while the workers are getting screwed. We long ago lost our balance---the table was tilted toward the ownership/investor class at the expense of everyone else.
 
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#32
#32
armchair said:
We need a Social Democratic Party in America as they've had in Europe for decades. And still have. The Social Democrats are the 2nd largest party in Germany. Scandinavia has a long social-democratic tradition--which essentially comes down to treating workers and citizens fairly and promoting the concept of egalitarianism--a good thing. Denmark is the most egalitarian country in the world--meaning it has the smallest gap between its poorest people and its richest, with most sitting in the financial middle. That's the IDEAL, friends.

There was a viable socialist movement in America in the early part of the 20th century. It was essentially a labor movement that arose to combat the harsh treatment of workers by industrialists--terrible working conditions and terrible pay. There were major strikes--some violent. Eugene Debs, head of the Socialist Party of America, ran for president five times.

In America we've let conservative pols screw workers--and the country--for 30 years. Capitalism morphed into vulture capitalism--CEOs focused only on the company stock price so they can rake ini bonuses; corrupt boards; scandalous executive compensation packages; layoffs, benefit cuts, private equity firms that sack longtime employees and give them a two-week severance (very common); $10 an hour page--the list goes on. Income equality has grown steadily; the middle class has been steadily shrinking. That leads to social instability--crime and worse. Sadly, middle American--and, yea, it includes Southerners, have enabled vulture capitalism by continuing to vote--stupidly--for Republicans. People work 40 hours a week, come home to their trailer parks--and then vote Republican because....well, I have no idea why they do it. I think it is because they are social conservatives worried about silly issues like abortion and gay marriage -religious types.

Bernie Sanders is a quasi-socialist. He simply wants a better deal for workers--and a single payer health system, which we quite obviously need. We need more pols like him.

Socialism has a bad name in America because it has been stigmatized by conservative pols and interest groups who make it their business to dupe conservative voters. Socialism, the media, unions--conservatives are very good at filling the heads of low-information middle Americans with nonsense. We are headed for trouble if we don't start treating the American worker with more respect. It's all about balance--you want innovators and entrepreneurs to be rewarded, but not excessively while the workers are getting screwed. We long ago lost our balance---the table was tilted toward the ownership/investor class at the expense of everyone else.
Click to expand...

This post is why you are made fun of for the rest of your posts. Please see your mistake and try more lucid posts in the future.
 
#33
#33
armchair said:
We need a Social Democratic Party in America as they've had in Europe for decades. And still have. The Social Democrats are the 2nd largest party in Germany. Scandinavia has a long social-democratic tradition--which essentially comes down to treating workers and citizens fairly and promoting the concept of egalitarianism--a good thing. Denmark is the most egalitarian country in the world--meaning it has the smallest gap between its poorest people and its richest, with most sitting in the financial middle. That's the IDEAL, friends.

There was a viable socialist movement in America in the early part of the 20th century. It was essentially a labor movement that arose to combat the harsh treatment of workers by industrialists--terrible working conditions and terrible pay. There were major strikes--some violent. Eugene Debs, head of the Socialist Party of America, ran for president five times.

In America we've let conservative pols screw workers--and the country--for 30 years. Capitalism morphed into vulture capitalism--CEOs focused only on the company stock price so they can rake ini bonuses; corrupt boards; scandalous executive compensation packages; layoffs, benefit cuts, private equity firms that sack longtime employees and give them a two-week severance (very common); $10 an hour page--the list goes on. Income equality has grown steadily; the middle class has been steadily shrinking. That leads to social instability--crime and worse. Sadly, middle American--and, yea, it includes Southerners, have enabled vulture capitalism by continuing to vote--stupidly--for Republicans. People work 40 hours a week, come home to their trailer parks--and then vote Republican because....well, I have no idea why they do it. I think it is because they are social conservatives worried about silly issues like abortion and gay marriage -religious types.

Bernie Sanders is a quasi-socialist. He simply wants a better deal for workers--and a single payer health system, which we quite obviously need. We need more pols like him.

Socialism has a bad name in America because it has been stigmatized by conservative pols and interest groups who make it their business to dupe conservative voters. Socialism, the media, unions--conservatives are very good at filling the heads of low-information middle Americans with nonsense. We are headed for trouble if we don't start treating the American worker with more respect. It's all about balance--you want innovators and entrepreneurs to be rewarded, but not excessively while the workers are getting screwed. We long ago lost our balance---the table was tilted toward the ownership/investor class at the expense of everyone else.
Click to expand...

There's never really been good government in the long run anywhere because power corrupts, and those in power can never get enough of it. So I'll take a system that has less chance of gaining more power - and that sure as hell isn't socialism.

Greece, Spain, Italy, etc are what you get with socialism ... it happens when you run out of other people's money. Hopefully nobody has to explain to you the pitfalls of communism - socialism to the extreme; it is, of course, the system where liberals/socialists get exactly what they ask for - complete government control - no thinking and no input necessary. Oh, yeah, those running the show lived quite well in nice dachas at everyone's expense.
 
#34
#34
I think the true answer to the question lies not in solely debating the philosophical merits of either system, but rather the measure of quality of life.

This article does a pretty good job, and ranks the top 20 countries by their index. We're 19th. Top 10 dominated by social democracies (Canada, Norway, Denmark) where social programs and support are ubiquitous and, not surprisingly, tax rates are high.

The countries with the highest quality of life have been announced by the not-for-profit organisation Social Progress Imperative.

Scandinavian nations scored highly in the "Social Progress Index," but more surprising are the very large countries which came lower down the list - suggesting that a strong GDP per capita is not the only gauge for a high standard of living.

Despite this, all of the top 19 countries are developed nations - so having a strong economy clear has an impact.

The "Social Progress Index" collates the scores of three main indexes:

Basic Human Needs, which includes medical care, sanitation, and shelter.

Foundations of Wellbeing, which covers education, access to technology, and life expectancy.

Opportunity, which looks at personal rights, freedom of choice, and general tolerance.


Social Progress Index: Countries with the highest standard of life - Business Insider
 
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#35
#35
armchair said:
We need a Social Democratic Party in America as they've had in Europe for decades. And still have. The Social Democrats are the 2nd largest party in Germany. Scandinavia has a long social-democratic tradition--which essentially comes down to treating workers and citizens fairly and promoting the concept of egalitarianism--a good thing. Denmark is the most egalitarian country in the world--meaning it has the smallest gap between its poorest people and its richest, with most sitting in the financial middle. That's the IDEAL, friends.

There was a viable socialist movement in America in the early part of the 20th century. It was essentially a labor movement that arose to combat the harsh treatment of workers by industrialists--terrible working conditions and terrible pay. There were major strikes--some violent. Eugene Debs, head of the Socialist Party of America, ran for president five times.

In America we've let conservative pols screw workers--and the country--for 30 years. Capitalism morphed into vulture capitalism--CEOs focused only on the company stock price so they can rake ini bonuses; corrupt boards; scandalous executive compensation packages; layoffs, benefit cuts, private equity firms that sack longtime employees and give them a two-week severance (very common); $10 an hour page--the list goes on. Income equality has grown steadily; the middle class has been steadily shrinking. That leads to social instability--crime and worse. Sadly, middle American--and, yea, it includes Southerners, have enabled vulture capitalism by continuing to vote--stupidly--for Republicans. People work 40 hours a week, come home to their trailer parks--and then vote Republican because....well, I have no idea why they do it. I think it is because they are social conservatives worried about silly issues like abortion and gay marriage -religious types.

Bernie Sanders is a quasi-socialist. He simply wants a better deal for workers--and a single payer health system, which we quite obviously need. We need more pols like him.

Socialism has a bad name in America because it has been stigmatized by conservative pols and interest groups who make it their business to dupe conservative voters. Socialism, the media, unions--conservatives are very good at filling the heads of low-information middle Americans with nonsense. We are headed for trouble if we don't start treating the American worker with more respect. It's all about balance--you want innovators and entrepreneurs to be rewarded, but not excessively while the workers are getting screwed. We long ago lost our balance---the table was tilted toward the ownership/investor class at the expense of everyone else.
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What are the demographics of the areas in bold?

Also, socialism has a bad name because it’s ****. Look at Venezuela.
 
#36
#36
tumscalcium said:
What are the demographics of the areas in bold?

Also, socialism has a bad name because it’s ****. Look at Venezuela.
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Roughly 51% female, 49% male. LOL.

We fear that which we don't know. Socialism has a stigma here, but hey, studies throughout the years show life is simply better within many social democracies. Go visit one sometime... they're clean, violence is low, and there are fewer full on retards.
 
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#37
#37
OuterBanksVol said:
Roughly 51% female, 49% male. LOL.

We fear that which we don't know. Socialism has a stigma here, but hey, studies throughout the years show life is simply better within many social democracies. Go visit one sometime... they're clean, violence is low, and there are fewer full on retards.
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Again, what are their demographics? Which countries are you talking about?
 
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#39
#39
OuterBanksVol said:
Roughly 51% female, 49% male. LOL.

We fear that which we don't know. Socialism has a stigma here, but hey, studies throughout the years show life is simply better within many social democracies. Go visit one sometime... they're clean, violence is low, and there are fewer full on retards.
Click to expand...

I think I’ll pass on living in a social democracy.
 
#42
#42
ClearwaterVol said:
It's the closet racist in Tums coming out. He is trying to be politically correct and say their are just too many darkies in this country.
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At least you understand the issue with trying to be exactly like the countries mentioned. Our people and culture(s) are significantly different. Not to mention everyone, regardless of race, are lazy and demand everything for free while remaining ultra lazy.

You ever wonder why no one on this board touts countries that are predominately “darkies”? I do mean no one.

Now, can the other posters answer the question? What are the demographics in these countries?
 
#43
#43
1972 Grad said:
Spoken like a true 1%er.
Click to expand...

I was reading this thread and was happily amazed that posters had responded to each other without derision or name calling. There was actual dialogue.
Then I read your response.:p
 
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#44
#44
MT LeConte said:
It's not a matter of Socialism vs. Capitalism. It's a matter of how much Socialism and how much Capitalism. Unbridled Capitalism always ends up like a game of monopoly and fails all but a few. Unbridled Socialism fails because it stifles incentive and eliminates competition.

Neither systems works exclusively.
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Lol capitalism will lead to monopolies? Socialism is merely a government monopoly. Also, monopolies aren't created by free markets. They're created by government regulations that make it more difficult for start ups and smaller businesses (minimum wage being one of those).
 
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#45
#45
lawgator1 said:
Correct, because we are fallible beings.

It's a constant tug of war between the haves and the have nots to control government and who it responds to. At the moment, the haves are winning. But the have nots are getting pissed.
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Lol put down the communist manifesto. The haves are always in power. That's why we should limit the power of the government.
 
#46
#46
jvol1 said:
For me it's capitalism, as enhanced by socialism. It seems like adopting some socialism makes capitalism work better, and I'm in favor of those -- healthcare and wealth tax.

Technology and labor reducing innovations will undoubtedly force us to become a more socialist nation. It's just a question of how quickly we adapt to the new changes with our government policy.
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Our entire history has involved labor reducing technology. That's what's allowed us to develop massive cities (we became effificent enough at growing food to have the free time). We take the labor that was previously needed and apply it elsewhere. As a result, society as a whole benefits.
 
#47
#47
armchair said:
We need a Social Democratic Party in America as they've had in Europe for decades. And still have. The Social Democrats are the 2nd largest party in Germany. Scandinavia has a long social-democratic tradition--which essentially comes down to treating workers and citizens fairly and promoting the concept of egalitarianism--a good thing. Denmark is the most egalitarian country in the world--meaning it has the smallest gap between its poorest people and its richest, with most sitting in the financial middle. That's the IDEAL, friends.

There was a viable socialist movement in America in the early part of the 20th century. It was essentially a labor movement that arose to combat the harsh treatment of workers by industrialists--terrible working conditions and terrible pay. There were major strikes--some violent. Eugene Debs, head of the Socialist Party of America, ran for president five times.

In America we've let conservative pols screw workers--and the country--for 30 years. Capitalism morphed into vulture capitalism--CEOs focused only on the company stock price so they can rake ini bonuses; corrupt boards; scandalous executive compensation packages; layoffs, benefit cuts, private equity firms that sack longtime employees and give them a two-week severance (very common); $10 an hour page--the list goes on. Income equality has grown steadily; the middle class has been steadily shrinking. That leads to social instability--crime and worse. Sadly, middle American--and, yea, it includes Southerners, have enabled vulture capitalism by continuing to vote--stupidly--for Republicans. People work 40 hours a week, come home to their trailer parks--and then vote Republican because....well, I have no idea why they do it. I think it is because they are social conservatives worried about silly issues like abortion and gay marriage -religious types.

Bernie Sanders is a quasi-socialist. He simply wants a better deal for workers--and a single payer health system, which we quite obviously need. We need more pols like him.

Socialism has a bad name in America because it has been stigmatized by conservative pols and interest groups who make it their business to dupe conservative voters. Socialism, the media, unions--conservatives are very good at filling the heads of low-information middle Americans with nonsense. We are headed for trouble if we don't start treating the American worker with more respect. It's all about balance--you want innovators and entrepreneurs to be rewarded, but not excessively while the workers are getting screwed. We long ago lost our balance---the table was tilted toward the ownership/investor class at the expense of everyone else.
Click to expand...

what you are missing is that these countries were doing just fine before they became socialist democracies. Its also funny that you only mention the rich socialist democracies and none of the poor ones that have failed. Behind your rose tinted glasses you are also ignoring how socialism has been used negatively. WWII.

the Nazis were National Socialists, Fascism just defines how the government operated their socialist programs. Mussolini's government also falls under this umbrella. If capitalism is responsible for slavery socialism has to take the Nazis.
 
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#48
#48
VolFaninFla said:
I was reading this thread and was happily amazed that posters had responded to each other without derision or name calling. There was actual dialogue.
Then I read your response.:p
Click to expand...
It was a joke between the 2 of us. Not name calling.
 
#49
#49
1972 Grad said:
It was a joke between the 2 of us. Not name calling.
Click to expand...

I know that...just messing with you, hence the smiley face.
It is actually very refreshing to read a good discussion with a civil exchange of ideas.



Originally Posted by VolFaninFla View Post
I was reading this thread and was happily amazed that posters had responded to each other without derision or name calling. There was actual dialogue.
Then I read your response.
 
#50
#50
SIAP but some clarification points:

1. Healthcare is not already socialized. Health insurance (paying for HC) is partially socialized. Even single payer is not the same as socialized HC. However, it is highly regulated (both HC and HI).

2. Retirement is somewhat socialized - each person (almost all) pay directly into the system. Payouts are not one-to-one but it's more akin to subsidized retirement for some and under paid retirement for others.

3. K-12 education is probably the most socialistic thing we do. (All contribute, government employees design and deliver).

A key aspect for me is the view of people as individual actors vs a collective. We still have a capitalism base with a view of a person as an individual and strong property rights. We've added some socialistic safety net provisions (which makes sense to me). To the point of the OP are we on an inevitable march towards socialism? We've certainly added more socialistic programs.

A final note on the Euro experience - one reason it may be more popular there is the homogeneity of the country populations. As you add more diversity and have less shared values as a society the resentment of social programs grows. We are seeing this now as Europe went for diversity through immigration without demands for assimilation. I predict you'll see increasing questioning of the social programs there.
 
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