Some of these players owe Butch Jones some effort.

[Volleycat]

I don't agree with OP's thread title. CBJ is making over $18 million over 6 years. For some players, he is their 3rd or 4th Head coach. The previous 2 coaches did not earn the players' trust and respect. These players have suffered brokenness in body and spirit. Why, exactly do they owe CBJ anything?

 

[volfan411]

I don't agree with OP's thread title. CBJ is making over $18 million over 6 years. For some players, he is their 3rd or 4th Head coach. The previous 2 coaches did not earn the players' trust and respect. These players have suffered brokenness in body and spirit. Why, exactly do they owe CBJ anything?

They probably do not owe Jones anything but we as fans owe them our support for sticking it out through some very tough times.

 

[volger]

The only problem I have with what I saw Saturday; again, is players getting by with loafing, and not being physical. That responsibility falls squarely on Butch's shoulders.

How is lack of effort on the coaches? Oh right you are the same age as the players. Gimme gimme.

 

[MrBiggles]

The players and the DC should be made to run 444 laps of the field goal line to goal line.

 

[checkerboards09]

How is lack of effort on the coaches? Oh right you are the same age as the players. Gimme gimme.

Bench their a**es. Can't the coach do that?

 

[Orangedogsrule]

We are right where we hoped we'd be at the start of the season. Plus a win over a ranked team with the toughest SOS in VOLS history. They have pretty much been through a sawmill with Mizzou and the barn also ranked by gameday.

The team goal is to make post season play.
bUTch has said this team has zero depth. To give themselves the best chance to reach their goal they had to have zero injuries playing Auburn after it became obvious they wouldn't win.

Well I know that's grasping at straws and, yes I would have expected more effort than what I saw. But it's the best explanation I can come up with, without starting to throw players under the bus. Any fan can do that for any team. It's been said on VN that any game plan is good if it's executed. This is pretty much the same defensive personel as last year, and they've been coached an coached an coached and all over again by a new staff. AND I BELIEVE THEY'VE LEARNED ALL THEY CAN AND GIVEN ALL THEY HAVE TO GIVE. Don't fault them when they've done that.

Beat Candy and the Smurf Kitties and ... they've met their (and the pre-season expectations of most of the fans) goal of post season eligibility.

 

[sjt18]

How is lack of effort on the coaches? Oh right you are the same age as the players. Gimme gimme.

I am not their age... but do manage people ranging from their age to over 60.

If you reward people who do not deserve it with promotion... you lose your team. I am not saying that is what is happening now... I am saying that there are guys who aren't performing who continue to start.

NO ONE is more responsible for someone getting away with a lack of effort than the HC. Ultimately, the HC is responsible for the team's effort. Players are accountable for themselves... not responsible. To be responsible, you have to be able to set the acceptable expectations too.

 

[titansvolsfaninga]

I am not their age... but do manage people ranging from their age to over 60.

If you reward people who do not deserve it with promotion... you lose your team. I am not saying that is what is happening now... I am saying that there are guys who aren't performing who continue to start.

NO ONE is more responsible for someone getting away with a lack of effort than the HC. Ultimately, the HC is responsible for the team's effort. Players are accountable for themselves... not responsible. To be responsible, you have to be able to set the acceptable expectations too.

You continue to trot out this same old song. What is it about depth don't you understand? Help me to understand what it is that you don't understand about depth. The team already does not have adequate depth, but your solution is to play an underdeveloped player. Does that honestly make sense to you?

You say you manage people. Would you honestly throw someone out into your work environment without being properly trained?

 

[sjt18]

We are right where we hoped we'd be at the start of the season.

You do not speak for me so no WE are not. I wanted to see proof that Jones was a coach who could coach a team to something greater than the sum of its parts. I went into very long explanations that I won't bore you with but are REASONED... not felt or just plucked out of the air.... about why the number that "proves" something was 7. He finishes this season AT BEST proving nothing more than what Dooley proved in his first year. The jury will still be out... unless he manages to lose to both Vandy and UK. That will be a strong indicator that he's in over his head or else needs a major and immediate remake of his staff.

Plus a win over a ranked team with the toughest SOS in VOLS history. They have pretty much been through a sawmill with Mizzou and the barn also ranked by gameday.

Vandy... who is less talented than UT... who hired a HC from where?... who UT MUST beat to make your magic "6"... played Mizzou tougher than UT did... beat UGA and UF.

Honestly, I cannot believe we are here worried about whether THIS UT team will beat THAT Vandy team.

Denial can be a comforting place... until the avalanche comes down on you.

The team goal is to make post season play.
bUTch has said this team has zero depth.

If he meant exactly that... then he is lying to make an excuse. UT does not have depth at all position groups. However it does have depth at some... specifically DL and OL. And I would suggest that D depth is not as good as it should be because some players have not been developed. If you want to blame a couple of guys... OK. If you want to blame all of them... Sorry, not buying.

JRM is good enough to be making a contribution at LB or even nickel had he been coached up. Two CB's with speed have been back from injury for weeks now and are not contributing. Both were with the team for spring and August. Teams across the SEC are playing true Fr on their DL... apparently none of UT's are good enough to do that. There are numerous players on D especially with enough talent to provide at least some measure of depth. But after 10 months... they apparently have not been developed to the point of contributing.

Some of that is on them. Most is on the coaching.

Well I know that's grasping at straws and, yes I would have expected more effort than what I saw. But it's the best explanation I can come up with, without starting to throw players under the bus.

No it isn't. The best answer is the honest one. There are roster issues. There are understandable deficiencies in the starters that were inherited. However the D coaching has left quite a bit to be desired in the last 3 games. They have not done a good job... and many here seem way too willing to blame "speed" or talent. IOW's, they want to throw players under the bus rather than even consider that the D coaching has been less than the absolute best possible.

The gameplanning for the last 3 games has been poor. The execution has been poor with the same mistakes over and over. The adjustments have been poor. These are all related to or completely coaching.

 

[Spartacavolus]

Butch also is smart enough to understand locker rooms as well and has handled it well. Its hard to come in and bench old guys for your guys if you are thinking long term. Fractured locker rooms stick around for awhile and ours is just now being put back together for the first time in years.
Its not always just about right now at certain times in coaching and in management. Somebody like Kiffin doesn't care about the above. Butch does. Probably one of the reasons he has been successfull and his players love him. Jmo.

 

[sjt18]

Butch also is smart enough to understand locker rooms as well and has handled it well. Its hard to come in and bench old guys for your guys if you are thinking long term. Fractured locker rooms stick around for awhile and ours is just now being put back together for the first time in years.

Nothing... ABSOLUTELY nothing... fractures a team like favoring a low performer over someone able and willing to do the job better. You will never get "championship football" by continuing to tolerate guys who are not progressing and continue to play poorly in the same ways.

If I have one complaint so far about Jones personally (my big complaint is with the DC) it is that he has not moved on one of several seniors who flat out aren't getting the job done.

If you are thinking long term... you ALWAYS want people to know that subpar performers will be replaced. You ALWAYS want your team to know that the TEAM is first... not friendship... not personal loyalties... and especially not seniority.

Its not always just about right now at certain times in coaching and in management.

It is NEVER about "just right now". Tolerating low performance or even lackluster effort does nothing but harm.

Butch does. Probably one of the reasons he has been successfull and his players love him. Jmo.

He benched Munchie. He benched Worley. Apparently J Smith may have been moved down.

Yet... we see McCullers constantly being driven off the LOS... we see the same secondary mistakes by the same players... we see the OL mistakes and missed assignments and worse yet lack of aggression...

I honestly do not understand why some of the guys he needs next year who might very well have made a big difference this year have not gotten their shot. It is a mystery since Jones has not been shy previously about yanking a starter.

 

[sjt18]

You continue to trot out this same old song.

And YOU continue to ignore what I say or else intentionally distort/lie about what I say.... and that aside from your condescending tone.

What is it about depth don't you understand?

Quite apparently I understand it MUCH better than YOU. You keep saying no depth and no speed. Both of those things are verifiably false. Is it what you would hope for? No. Is it bad enough to come anywhere close to explaining the last 3 and especially last two embarrassments? NO.

Help me to understand what it is that you don't understand about depth. The team already does not have adequate depth, but your solution is to play an underdeveloped player. Does that honestly make sense to you?

And you think I have a problem with "understanding"?

That is not what I am saying at all. I AM saying that there are guys on the roster without a RS to be concerned about who could have been contributing. In 10 months, the DC has not been able to get them prepared.

Jones has REPEATEDLY talked about building depth. He has mentioned some issues that can only be fixed by recruiting but he was talking about player development as well.

I don't know what is said in private staff meetings... but I suspect he's asking the D staff some of the same questions I am asking.

You say you manage people. Would you honestly throw someone out into your work environment without being properly trained?

That's a stupid question. Are you intentionally trying to set up a deceptive strawman or have you really failed to understand what I've written?

We train our people. We do it with good efficiency then we expect them to perform. We also hold a standard and expect everyone new or old to meet that standard if they want to work here.


LB, CB, and S were and are positions of severe need. Who has this defensive staff coached up over the course of the season to provide depth at those positions?

R Jones exits spring as a starter... practices all of spring... has been healthy for about 3 weeks now... and they still have not been able to get minutes from him?

JRM is apparently a sponge in addition to being a ST's heat seeking missile... yet the DC cannot at a minimum use him in certain D's vs down/distance?

Orta is fast enough to play ST's... so they don't think he's slow... but he cannot take any reps at all at S? L Johnson? M Foreman? M Williams?

If you were DC and knew you had a depth issue... wouldn't you devote considerable time and effort to identify someone who could help then get them ready to play? Don't you think you could have done so within the 15 weeks this fall plus spring for some of the guys?

 

[titansvolsfaninga]

And YOU continue to ignore what I say or else intentionally distort/lie about what I say.... and that aside from your condescending tone.

Quite apparently I understand it MUCH better than YOU. You keep saying no depth and no speed. Both of those things are verifiably false. Is it what you would hope for? No. Is it bad enough to come anywhere close to explaining the last 3 and especially last two embarrassments? NO.

And you think I have a problem with "understanding"?

That is not what I am saying at all. I AM saying that there are guys on the roster without a RS to be concerned about who could have been contributing. In 10 months, the DC has not been able to get them prepared.

Jones has REPEATEDLY talked about building depth. He has mentioned some issues that can only be fixed by recruiting but he was talking about player development as well.

I don't know what is said in private staff meetings... but I suspect he's asking the D staff some of the same questions I am asking.



That's a stupid question. Are you intentionally trying to set up a deceptive strawman or have you really failed to understand what I've written?

We train our people. We do it with good efficiency then we expect them to perform. We also hold a standard and expect everyone new or old to meet that standard if they want to work here.


LB, CB, and S were and are positions of severe need. Who has this defensive staff coached up over the course of the season to provide depth at those positions?

R Jones exits spring as a starter... practices all of spring... has been healthy for about 3 weeks now... and they still have not been able to get minutes from him?

JRM is apparently a sponge in addition to being a ST's heat seeking missile... yet the DC cannot at a minimum use him in certain D's vs down/distance?

Orta is fast enough to play ST's... so they don't think he's slow... but he cannot take any reps at all at S? L Johnson? M Foreman? M Williams?

If you were DC and knew you had a depth issue... wouldn't you devote considerable time and effort to identify someone who could help then get them ready to play? Don't you think you could have done so within the 15 weeks this fall plus spring for some of the guys?

It's easy to make assumptions when you are on the outside looking in. You act as if you are at every practice, at every team meeting, at the coaches meeting. You say that you train your people with efficiency, that's all well and good. But I am sure what you do is not college athletics. I can train someone to read a financial report and what to look for in several days. Training some kids to recognize offensive or defensive alignments is totally different. I am only condescending to you because you are very opinionated and negative. For some reason, you have an ax to grind against our DC. He's been here less than a year with basically the same kids that were here last year. And you want him to work miracles.

If you think you can do a better job, you should quit your day job and go into coaching. But I know you wouldn't dare do that because you would most likely starve.

 

[Spartacavolus]

Nothing... ABSOLUTELY nothing... fractures a team like favoring a low performer over someone able and willing to do the job better. You will never get "championship football" by continuing to tolerate guys who are not progressing and continue to play poorly in the same ways.

If I have one complaint so far about Jones personally (my big complaint is with the DC) it is that he has not moved on one of several seniors who flat out aren't getting the job done.

If you are thinking long term... you ALWAYS want people to know that subpar performers will be replaced. You ALWAYS want your team to know that the TEAM is first... not friendship... not personal loyalties... and especially not seniority.

It is NEVER about "just right now". Tolerating low performance or even lackluster effort does nothing but harm.



He benched Munchie. He benched Worley. Apparently J Smith may have been moved down.

Yet... we see McCullers constantly being driven off the LOS... we see the same secondary mistakes by the same players... we see the OL mistakes and missed assignments and worse yet lack of aggression...

I honestly do not understand why some of the guys he needs next year who might very well have made a big difference this year have not gotten their shot. It is a mystery since Jones has not been shy previously about yanking a starter.

you've read too many corporate management books, imo, and the ALLCAPS is annoying as hell, and wrong at the same time. There is no ALWAYS in anything, especially when you are building something from scratch or the ground up. Sometimes you take lumps you don't want to take and no one else understands because it pays off down the road.
We aren't in the 4th year of a program with Butch's players as he is playing less talented ones over more talented ones or blatant favoritism. Lack of upperclassmen leadership the last few years has absolutely hurt this team and he's trying to create some leaders, get some stability and mend a ridiculously broken locker room, which he already has. Worked pretty well when we had our biggest win in 4 years just a few games ago.
Do you not think McCullers would sit more if Couch was there? We are already rotating backups and the next level are guys that are going to redshirt. Who do you want to start in front of Marlon Walls? J Smith? Ok, fine, start Jordan Williams. Big upgrade.

 

[sjt18]

It's easy to make assumptions when you are on the outside looking in. You act as if you are at every practice, at every team meeting, at the coaches meeting.

No more so than you. Saying that available talent has not been coached up is a conjecture but not an assumption. They may have some other motive for not playing those guys more... I just suspect they don't.

You say that you train your people with efficiency, that's all well and good. But I am sure what you do is not college athletics.

No. Many of our jobs are far more complex than what these guys are asked to learn from a mental standpoint. It takes years to become fully trained but we can get "something" out of new hires within weeks. We put them in a position to succeed at things they can do. Other DC's have done that including Wilcox when he was around.

I can train someone to read a financial report and what to look for in several days. Training some kids to recognize offensive or defensive alignments is totally different.

Different? Sure. But they have had far more than "several days". And they COULD have some of those guys prepared on some limited basis. JRM could not have been trained to be a 3rd and long LB by now? You've seen him play ST's... you don't think he could have helped when some of these mobile QB's have broken the pocket?

I am only condescending to you because you are very opinionated and negative.

I am neither negative nor blind. I have not said the D staff cannot improve or are doomed forever. They have not coached well over the last 3 weeks. That's a simple fact. There is little evidenced that they have coached up available back ups.

I have listed positives in response to you. I think Jones is a very good HC. However he is not immune from making mistakes... and I think he may have done so bringing Jancek to UT.

For some reason, you have an ax to grind against our DC. He's been here less than a year with basically the same kids that were here last year. And you want him to work miracles.

And... the same or better kids than those on the roster 2 years ago when Wilcox coached them up to look like a credible D for the most part. My only "ax to grind" is with failure. The last three games have been FAILURES. The roster issues simply do not justify the margins or complete D meltdowns.

If you think you can do a better job, you should quit your day job and go into coaching. But I know you wouldn't dare do that because you would most likely starve.

Oh yeah. That's solid... were you taught how to use deceptive debate tactics or do they just come natural?

 

[sjt18]

you've read too many corporate management books, imo, and the ALLCAPS is annoying as hell, and wrong at the same time.

Done for emphasis. I like you and have often agreed with you. I really understand your desire to remain 100% positive. I have read many things... tried many "tools"... and discarded the ones that don't work.

There is no ALWAYS in anything, especially when you are building something from scratch or the ground up.

I seldom use definitive words and only do so judiciously. There are few "always" but there are some.

Sometimes you take lumps you don't want to take and no one else understands because it pays off down the road.

True. I'm not complaining about that. If you think I am then I would be interested in how.

Do you not think McCullers would sit more if Couch was there?

Saulsberry was playing better than McCullers before his injury... and not starting. McCullers is playing worse now.

We are already rotating backups and the next level are guys that are going to redshirt. Who do you want to start in front of Marlon Walls?

Walls has played well. IMO, he would be a good option to slide inside for more quickness.

J Smith?

Vereen. The knock is his run D... but he looks better than Smith. I'd take Miller or Williams over him too.

Ok, fine, start Jordan Williams. Big upgrade.

Maybe more than you think. Smith just never came along.

 

[Spartacavolus]

And that's fine with me to sit Smith. His pick 6 bought him time he really doesn't deserve. They run off his right shoulder anytime they want. Wasn't Vereen coming off an early season injury? Didn't Saulsberry sprain a knee ligament?
It's not only difficult to coach less talent, but worse when you don't have talent ready behind it.

 

[dillyo51]

This ^^^^^^^^

You know when we got push on the DL??? When Greg Clark and Danny O'brien were in the game. And O'brien was loafing on STs.

I don't like to criticize players too much for their physical shortcomings but to me they are fair game if they are giving little effort. That is one thing I can't overlook as a fan.

I've had this discussion in other threads but anyone who says big Dan is giving even decent effort is full of it. They either don't watch the DL at ALL, or they just want to take up for him because he is big and was supposed to be good. Most of the year he hasn't given good effort but hasn't gotten blown off the ball either. Well, this game he was getting pushed around and that should NEVER happen to him. He is too big and too good for him to allow that to happen. Just no fire. And i wish 55 would set the edge just one time, plz!!

Sometime size doesn't matter, :ermm:

 

[sjt18]

And that's fine with me to sit Smith. His pick 6 bought him time he really doesn't deserve. They run off his right shoulder anytime they want. Wasn't Vereen coming off an early season injury? Didn't Saulsberry sprain a knee ligament?
It's not only difficult to coach less talent, but worse when you don't have talent ready behind it.

Yes. Both are healthy now and much more active than the guys playing in front of them.

I'm not even sure who you start with on the OL but someone needs to sit just to make a statement. Tiny seems to get noticed here the most but he's probably missing the fewest blocks. There are times when the other four have been nothing more than matadors.

I've actually been through quite a bit where I work. I took over and there were tons of performance issues and drama issues. I took a few months to assess and work with some of the employees I inherited to see if any were salvagable.

One of the biggest problems was a guy who no one thought could be fired because of his tenure and knowledge. He was the first to go for performance. It made a huge statement and the attitudes of those who would end up surviving turned on a dime. It really helped divide the sheep from the goats.

I think Jones could get big dividends by doing that before Vandy.

If you will concede that there are real indications of some coaching issues at least on D then I will give you this...

Jones may still be in the assessment stage. That does not seem to fit his style but it is possible.

And here... is the argument I would be making in your shoes . Jones motto is brick by brick. Therefore he goes methodically one step at a time even when short cuts might result in better results sooner. The end product is a foundation and steady stream of guys graduating from development to contribution to two-deep. That's why even though a guy like JRM could learn some things right now that would help... Jones demands he learns what he considers "foundational" things first. It would also explain why he might stick with a junior/senior starter not because he's better but because he's not in the "process" while his potential replacement is. This is also bolstered by the willingness to RS Maggitt.

IOW's, Jones is so disciplined in his process that things can look much uglier than absolutely necessary on the front end.

Mind you I would be making those arguments if I felt like they were more likely than real problems with the DC. I do see some indications of this on O. But mostly I want you to know that I have thought on both sides and didn't just go kneejerk negative.

 

[sjt18]

Sometime size doesn't matter, :ermm:

Never matters if you are smart and have great technique.:hi:

 

[beachbums624]

And YOU continue to ignore what I say or else intentionally distort/lie about what I say.... and that aside from your condescending tone.

Quite apparently I understand it MUCH better than YOU. You keep saying no depth and no speed. Both of those things are verifiably false. Is it what you would hope for? No. Is it bad enough to come anywhere close to explaining the last 3 and especially last two embarrassments? NO.

And you think I have a problem with "understanding"?

That is not what I am saying at all. I AM saying that there are guys on the roster without a RS to be concerned about who could have been contributing. In 10 months, the DC has not been able to get them prepared.

Jones has REPEATEDLY talked about building depth. He has mentioned some issues that can only be fixed by recruiting but he was talking about player development as well.

I don't know what is said in private staff meetings... but I suspect he's asking the D staff some of the same questions I am asking.



That's a stupid question. Are you intentionally trying to set up a deceptive strawman or have you really failed to understand what I've written?

We train our people. We do it with good efficiency then we expect them to perform. We also hold a standard and expect everyone new or old to meet that standard if they want to work here.


LB, CB, and S were and are positions of severe need. Who has this defensive staff coached up over the course of the season to provide depth at those positions?

R Jones exits spring as a starter... practices all of spring... has been healthy for about 3 weeks now... and they still have not been able to get minutes from him?

JRM is apparently a sponge in addition to being a ST's heat seeking missile... yet the DC cannot at a minimum use him in certain D's vs down/distance?

Orta is fast enough to play ST's... so they don't think he's slow... but he cannot take any reps at all at S? L Johnson? M Foreman? M Williams?

If you were DC and knew you had a depth issue... wouldn't you devote considerable time and effort to identify someone who could help then get them ready to play? Don't you think you could have done so within the 15 weeks this fall plus spring for some of the guys?

So are you the head of a Call Center ? Tell-Marketer ? Honestly that seems to describe your stance on most everything . This is in NO means a dig at call center managers . Its also not a dig at you SJT . I am actually curious .