South Africa votes to confiscate all white owned farmland


It's very simple, Hong Kong and the Panama Canal were done via treaty and transitioned back to the respective governments when those treaties came to an end.

This land was and is owned by private citizens. And even though ownership came during the apartheid laws, it's still private property being confiscated by the government, I'd dare assume forcibly in some cases, because of a legislature voting on it.

It's a complete apples to oranges comparison you are attempting to make here. For someone who tends to despise "big government" actions, I'm wondering why you would so easily accept a government confiscating land from a private citizen just because "our forefathers were in slavery."
 
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Africa has been having a lot of problems farming due to the government. They've had to import food due their inefficient farming. It will only get worse.

Farmers who have farmed for decades will give up farms to inexperienced people who can't farm.
 
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Africa has been having a lot of problems farming due to the government. They've had to import food due their inefficient farming. It will only get worse.

Farmers who have farmed for decades will give up farms to inexperienced people who can't farm.

It’s how the Russians starved themselves to death. But you can’t reason with commies.

I love how they (SA) want to print money until their people are rich
 
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It's very simple, Hong Kong and the Panama Canal were done via treaty and transitioned back to the respective governments when those treaties came to an end.

You do realize that the people in Panama rioted and protested, which is what caused Jimmy Carter to come to the negotiating table with Torrijos, right?

In either case in Panama or Hong Kong, the land eventually returned to their rightful owners.

Your argument seems to be with regards to the method of the transition, not the end result.

This land was and is owned by private citizens. And even though ownership came during the apartheid laws, it's still private property being confiscated by the government, I'd dare assume forcibly in some cases, because of a legislature voting on it.
The govt took it, and now the govt is giving it back to the original "owners" for lack of a better term.

It's a complete apples to oranges comparison you are attempting to make here. For someone who tends to despise "big government" actions, I'm wondering why you would so easily accept a government confiscating land from a private citizen just because "our forefathers were in slavery."

That private citizen wouldn't have possession of the land were it not for the govt intervening. You seem to take issue with the govt returning land now but no problem with the govt taking land in the past.

Look, I say all that to say this... we've already seen how land confiscation in this manner works in Africa. Just look at Uganda/Idi Amin and Zimbabwe/Mugabe. It was a disaster. The people who owned the land and ran the farms were forced out and the land was less productive afterwards. The same will probably happen in this case, as well.

But those are 2 different discussions. I am of the belief that the land should be returned to the original people of the country, but the problem I see is that I am not certain they will be good caretakers once it is returned.
 
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You do realize that the people in Panama rioted and protested, which is what caused Jimmy Carter to come to the negotiating table with Torrijos, right?

In either case in Panama or Hong Kong, the land eventually returned to their rightful owners.

Your argument seems to be with regards to the method of the transition, not the end result.

The govt took it, and now the govt is giving it back to the original "owners" for lack of a better term.



That private citizen wouldn't have possession of the land were it not for the govt intervening. You seem to take issue with the govt returning land now but no problem with the govt taking land in the past.

Look, I say all that to say this... we've already seen how land confiscation in this manner works in Africa. Just look at Uganda/Idi Amin and Zimbabwe/Mugabe. It was a disaster. The people who owned the land and ran the farms were forced out and the land was less productive afterwards. The same will probably happen in this case, as well.

But those are 2 different discussions. I am of the belief that the land should be returned to the original people of the country, but the problem I see is that I am not certain they will be good caretakers once it is returned.

So after we return the US to the native Americans, what country in Africa are you moving to?
 
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You do realize that the people in Panama rioted and protested, which is what caused Jimmy Carter to come to the negotiating table with Torrijos, right?

In either case in Panama or Hong Kong, the land eventually returned to their rightful owners.

If you consider "rioting and protesting" that happened over 10 years prior to Carter renegotiating the treaty, then no, I don't consider one to be predicated on the other.

In both cases, the land was eventually returned to the rightful nation. Key word being nation there. The Panama Canal, Macau and Hong Kong were all eventually transferred back to the host nation's control. And in the case of Macau, came 400 years after the Dutch had established that city. Regardless, apples to oranges comparisons as two nations were negotiating and transferring control..

The govt took it, and now the govt is giving it back to the original "owners" for lack of a better term.

As 82 pointed out, does the government of SA actually want to confiscate "private" lands being used by individuals? Or is it the SA federal government idea of "Robin Hooding" the lands owned by whites and giving it to the tenant blacks? Or reclaiming traditional regions the original inhabitants of South Africa used? Or is it a method of "balancing" the power of one group over another? Here's a good article to read on some historical background:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/lorenz...ver-land-reform-in-south-africa/#7b79f1b971f3

Says nothing of whether the lands were owned prior to the Apartheid laws or not. However, Huffpo gives a bit more background:

'It's Time For The ANC To Get Land Reform Right'

If we were to compare the land "reform" in SA to a US historical period, it would have been the government confiscating lands in the former Confederacy 25 years after the war and giving it to the freed slaves that were working on the lands as freedmen.

The major difference being it's not as much about "reform" in South Africa as it is a political party's hardline stance and bedrock principle since they came to power in 1994. And ignoring (as the Forbes article points out) if the folks actually wanted the property to begin with. Or had the desire or aptitude to work it as intended. Or didn't turn around and resell to a new white owner.

Basically, we are talking the South African version of reparations here though with the twist of "give it up or else."

That private citizen wouldn't have possession of the land were it not for the govt intervening. You seem to take issue with the govt returning land now but no problem with the govt taking land in the past.

I don't think we can say for certain the land was "taken" by a government in the first place, namely the Dutch and British. The area was colonized by those two nations (for the most part) and against the will of the original inhabitants, but to say those two governments were "taking" lands in the first place isn't quite true. As 82 implied, it would be the equal of the US Government "taking" lands that belongs to the Native Americans. They really didn't "own" the land to begin with, but rather had regions they lived on and used. There were probably some cases (maybe a lot, I don't know) where individual land ownership was forfeited during the Indian Removal Act days, but to say the government "took" great stretches of lands owned by individuals is a stretch.

Look, I say all that to say this... we've already seen how land confiscation in this manner works in Africa. Just look at Uganda/Idi Amin and Zimbabwe/Mugabe. It was a disaster. The people who owned the land and ran the farms were forced out and the land was less productive afterwards. The same will probably happen in this case, as well.

But those are 2 different discussions. I am of the belief that the land should be returned to the original people of the country, but the problem I see is that I am not certain they will be good caretakers once it is returned.

The problem, as it is with the reparation argument, is who actually is entitled to what? What kind of historical claim might one individual have on such a tract of land? "My grandfather's grandfather's uncle once hunted this land and killed a lion, hence, I have historical claim to it." The further argument is whether one can consider the current white owners to be "inhabitants" or not. Some of the Boer families can probably trace their lineage all the way to the 17th century. Are they not entitled to the same status as being "inhabitants" as the original tribes?

But more to the point, this isn't about "returning" lands as much as it is a transition of power and, again, the political promise and principle of the ANC since it came into power in 1994. Yes, my argument is against the forced taking of land by the government without proper compensation and turning it over to those who just might not want to use it. I agree in principle the lands not owned by private citizens in SA being turned over to the "people" or even groups. But to confiscate private lands without just compensation just because your party is in power and you want to "up" the ownership of lands by black individuals in South Africa?

It's a recipe for disaster.
 
Ras, a better analogy than the Hong Kong or Panama Canal references would be if the Aborigines took over Australia's government in its entirety and confiscated a white owned business before giving it to an Aboriginal mail room clerk. It doesn't matter if they are fit or even want to own the company, ownership will transfer because "your ancestors were here first and we owe you this."
 
The ancestor thing never made sense to me? How did your ancestor get the land? He kicked someone else out. How did your ancestor lose the land? He got kicked out.

Not seeing a great argument for there being a principal to the return. This could simply be the next turn of kicking people out but there is no way to justify it
 
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If you consider "rioting and protesting" that happened over 10 years prior to Carter renegotiating the treaty, then no, I don't consider one to be predicated on the other.

In both cases, the land was eventually returned to the rightful nation. Key word being nation there. The Panama Canal, Macau and Hong Kong were all eventually transferred back to the host nation's control. And in the case of Macau, came 400 years after the Dutch had established that city. Regardless, apples to oranges comparisons as two nations were negotiating and transferring control..



As 82 pointed out, does the government of SA actually want to confiscate "private" lands being used by individuals? Or is it the SA federal government idea of "Robin Hooding" the lands owned by whites and giving it to the tenant blacks? Or reclaiming traditional regions the original inhabitants of South Africa used? Or is it a method of "balancing" the power of one group over another? Here's a good article to read on some historical background:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/lorenz...ver-land-reform-in-south-africa/#7b79f1b971f3

Says nothing of whether the lands were owned prior to the Apartheid laws or not. However, Huffpo gives a bit more background:

'It's Time For The ANC To Get Land Reform Right'

If we were to compare the land "reform" in SA to a US historical period, it would have been the government confiscating lands in the former Confederacy 25 years after the war and giving it to the freed slaves that were working on the lands as freedmen.

The major difference being it's not as much about "reform" in South Africa as it is a political party's hardline stance and bedrock principle since they came to power in 1994. And ignoring (as the Forbes article points out) if the folks actually wanted the property to begin with. Or had the desire or aptitude to work it as intended. Or didn't turn around and resell to a new white owner.

Basically, we are talking the South African version of reparations here though with the twist of "give it up or else."



I don't think we can say for certain the land was "taken" by a government in the first place, namely the Dutch and British. The area was colonized by those two nations (for the most part) and against the will of the original inhabitants, but to say those two governments were "taking" lands in the first place isn't quite true. As 82 implied, it would be the equal of the US Government "taking" lands that belongs to the Native Americans. They really didn't "own" the land to begin with, but rather had regions they lived on and used. There were probably some cases (maybe a lot, I don't know) where individual land ownership was forfeited during the Indian Removal Act days, but to say the government "took" great stretches of lands owned by individuals is a stretch.



The problem, as it is with the reparation argument, is who actually is entitled to what? What kind of historical claim might one individual have on such a tract of land? "My grandfather's grandfather's uncle once hunted this land and killed a lion, hence, I have historical claim to it." The further argument is whether one can consider the current white owners to be "inhabitants" or not. Some of the Boer families can probably trace their lineage all the way to the 17th century. Are they not entitled to the same status as being "inhabitants" as the original tribes?

But more to the point, this isn't about "returning" lands as much as it is a transition of power and, again, the political promise and principle of the ANC since it came into power in 1994. Yes, my argument is against the forced taking of land by the government without proper compensation and turning it over to those who just might not want to use it. I agree in principle the lands not owned by private citizens in SA being turned over to the "people" or even groups. But to confiscate private lands without just compensation just because your party is in power and you want to "up" the ownership of lands by black individuals in South Africa?

It's a recipe for disaster.

The Panama Canal wasn’t returned to the rightful nation. We built it and should still be in possession of it.
 
The Panama Canal wasn’t returned to the rightful nation. We built it and should still be in possession of it.

Yeah, you just opened it.

1.jpg
 
South Africa withdraws white farmland redistribution bill six days after Trump Warned he was closely studying the situation

South Africa has withdrawn its white farmland redistribution bill - six days after Donald Trump warned he was closely studying the situation.

The ruling African National Congress (ANC) said the bill passed by parliament in 2016 enabling the state to make compulsory purchases of land to redress racial disparities in land ownership needed further consideration.

It comes after Trump criticised the country's land reform plans in a tweet that touched on the overwhelmingly white ownership of farmland in South Africa - one of the most sensitive issues in the country's post-apartheid history.

'I have asked Secretary of State... (Mike) Pompeo to closely study the South Africa land and farm seizures and expropriations and the large scale killing of farmers,' tweeted Trump to his 54 million followers.

South Africa withdraws farmland redistribution bill after Trump tweet | Daily Mail Online
 
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South Africa withdraws white farmland redistribution bill six days after Trump Warned he was closely studying the situation

South Africa has withdrawn its white farmland redistribution bill - six days after Donald Trump warned he was closely studying the situation.

The ruling African National Congress (ANC) said the bill passed by parliament in 2016 enabling the state to make compulsory purchases of land to redress racial disparities in land ownership needed further consideration.

It comes after Trump criticised the country's land reform plans in a tweet that touched on the overwhelmingly white ownership of farmland in South Africa - one of the most sensitive issues in the country's post-apartheid history.

'I have asked Secretary of State... (Mike) Pompeo to closely study the South Africa land and farm seizures and expropriations and the large scale killing of farmers,' tweeted Trump to his 54 million followers.

South Africa withdraws farmland redistribution bill after Trump tweet | Daily Mail Online
He better not drag us into a damned civil war.
 
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Hasn't a plan for revocation of white-owned farmland already been tried in another African country with disastrous results?
 

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