Space Exploration

[PKT_VOL]

That picture never gets old lol

Nope lol. The sad thing is that I give more credence to ancient alien theory than traditional religion. Just my opinion though.

He can say that, but is he necessarily right? Like you pointed out, do they have their own version of "Jesus" that they believe provides them salvation? So he may be technically correct that our Jesus cannot offer them salvation. But to say they are doomed to hell because of that fact isn't correct because he cannot say beyond a reasonable doubt that God didn't provide a way of an alien salvation.

ETA: He's still a kook and gets far more attention than he deserves.

Well, it depends. If you think the Bible is the infallible, literal word of God, then I think he has a case. At least this Jesus:

If, however, you are in the inspired word of God camp, I think there is plausible theology (wiggle room).

Then again, why not gravitate towards Joseph Smith. Maybe his magical hat was right after all.

 

[rjd970]

Yeah, it is where Mormonism comes in handy with respect to Christianity. At least they have scripture and theology that covers these scenarios when other (mainstream) religions don't. Then again, mainstream Christianity doesn't exactly play nice when it comes to Mormonism.

As for the specific questions above, if we are to assume only one God for the multiverse, mainstream religion holds that humans were made in God's image. This would seem to indicate (at least to me) that all such creations would be relatively the same and function relatively the same. If each planet were to have an Adam and Eve, they would all fall into sin eventually given they have free will and time goes to infinity (similar to Godwin's Law). So in a sense, original sin would apply universally because one would think if such a doctrine is just here on Earth by a perfect deity, then it would be just on another planet. Moreover, because of this sin, they would need a savior and would need a Jesus figure to save them.

If God's sovereignty extends only to Earth or this solar system, then all bets are off. Other God's would have different rules, different creativity, etc.

I always thought the Mormon practice of baptisms for the dead was also an ingenious work around for salvation of those that weren't saved. It's at least an attempt at making sense.

As a side note, they got in some trouble a while back when it was discovered they were doing it for holocaust victims. It was in bad taste for sure, but it's surprising Jews would even care what loony rituals Mormons do in their temples that have no direct impact on them.

 

[PKT_VOL]

I always thought the Mormon practice of baptisms for the dead was also an ingenious work around for salvation of those that weren't saved. It's at least an attempt at making sense.

As a side note, they got in some trouble a while back when it was discovered they were doing it for holocaust victims. It was in bad taste for sure, but it's surprising Jews would even care what loony rituals Mormons do in their temples that have no direct impact on them.

My post was more directed towards the Mormon belief that if you're a good Mormon/Christian/Polygamist (FLDS), you will end up being the God of your own planet (with your spouse). That would account for aliens, their salvation and the like.

Although to your point of baptism, I thought I read somewhere that they had already baptized all extraterrestrial life. I could be wrong though.

 

[Orange_Crush]

Interesting conversation with a lot of assumptions. Since the Bible didn't speak directly to the points, the assumptions are necessary. A few points.

Paul said humanity needed a savior because sin nature entered man through Adam (man). So, that doesn't say that an alien race would fall with humanity. But Paul also says that all of creation "groans" for redemption, so there's indication that all of creation fell when Adam did. Did he mean the whole world, or the whole universe? It would kind of suck to be your own race across the universe, minding your own business, and inherit sin and death because some other race got a sweet tooth.

I personally don't believe there is any other life out there, so I'll figure it all out if we ever find it.

 

[PKT_VOL]

Interesting conversation with a lot of assumptions. Since the Bible didn't speak directly to the points, the assumptions are necessary. A few points.

Paul said humanity needed a savior because sin nature entered man through Adam (man). So, that doesn't say that an alien race would fall with humanity. But Paul also says that all of creation "groans" for redemption, so there's indication that all of creation fell when Adam did. Did he mean the whole world, or the whole universe? It would kind of suck to be your own race across the universe, minding your own business, and inherit sin and death because some other race got a sweet tooth.

I personally don't believe there is any other life out there, so I'll figure it all out if we ever find it.

Creation was the Earth + Heaven + Hell + the Sun+ the Moon + the specs of light in the night sky. They had no concept of extraterrestrial life/races in far away galaxies teaming with countless planets that could possibly support life like we do today.

The sheer statistics of there not being other life is pretty mind-blowing.

 

[Danl]

Do other planets have their own versions of Adam, Eve, and Jesus?

Dang it! If GS were still here we could at least ask him about his planet. It would be one data point anyway.

 

[Orange_Crush]

The sheer statistics of there not being other life is pretty mind-blowing.

Yes. If you look at the universe as a random happening driven purely by chance, then I guess it would be. If you look at it as a special creation, and happen to believe that the creator explicitly why he made the stars, and it had nothing to do with other life, then statistics may not mean as much.

 

[Orange_Crush]

Creation was the Earth + Heaven + Hell + the Sun+ the Moon + the specs of light in the night sky. They had no concept of extraterrestrial life/races in far away galaxies teaming with countless planets that could possibly support life like we do today.

The Greek word for 'creation' there has usage by the same author in the same book to reference specifically earthly creation.

ETA: Jesus also said: And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation."

Same Greek word. He said "world", not "worlds", when talking about 'creation'. So, we can't just blindly export the original language to English and ignore context/usage.

 

[PKT_VOL]

Dang it! If GS were still here we could at least ask him about his planet. It would be one data point anyway.

Lulz. He was a hoot.

 

[PKT_VOL]

Yes. If you look at the universe as a random happening driven purely by chance, then I guess it would be. If you look at it as a special creation, and happen to believe that the creator explicitly why he made the stars, and it had nothing to do with other life, then statistics may not mean as much.

Amazing you look at the cosmos and see that picture.

 

[PKT_VOL]

The Greek word for 'creation' there has usage by the same author in the same book to reference specifically earthly creation.

ETA: Jesus also said: And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation."

Same Greek word. He said "world", not "worlds", when talking about 'creation'. So, we can't just blindly export the original language to English and ignore context/usage.

You're missing the point. It doesn't matter if "creation" meant "world" or "the cosmos". Their knowledge and perspective of Earth and the cosmos was very limited.

 

[Grand Vol]

You're missing the point. It doesn't matter if "creation" meant "world" or "the cosmos". Their knowledge and perspective of Earth and the cosmos was very limited.

I think that's the point I made myself. It would have been impossible to comprehend those things back in the day when the Bible was written.

There are a few things in life I take on faith alone. God happens to be one of them. I'm not going to get into the spiritual/scientific debate because I tend to be rational about the whole thing myself and science hasn't proved God doesn't exist just as they like to say religion can't prove God exists. So until one or the other has been done, I'll continue to believe in some things on faith alone.

But overall, yes, the Bible is written by man and is fallible. Which is why I said "inspired by God" in my post. But again, Ham can't definitively say aliens are going to hell because again, the Bible was written from a mankind perspective on Earth alone. He has no knowledge of existence outside the Earthbound realms so he cannot definitively say they don't have a path for salvation. And since he refuses to even accept the fact there can be life out there as he stated in the article, he obviously can't be open to that idea.

And again, he is a kook that gets far more press than he deserves. Just like I say with the open carry idiots in Texas, he does far more to damage those that take a more rational acceptance of science and religion by making such comments than he would be having said beliefs and not blasting them out to the news.

 

[Orange_Crush]

You're missing the point. It doesn't matter if "creation" meant "world" or "the cosmos". Their knowledge and perspective of Earth and the cosmos was very limited.

I got ya. But considering that you find it amazing that I view the universe as created for purpose, and the Bible as the word of God, I'm pretty sure you're not considering my point about the specificity of the word used.

But like I said... I don't know and am not particularly concerned one way or the other.

 

[Orange_Crush]

You're missing the point. It doesn't matter if "creation" meant "world" or "the cosmos". Their knowledge and perspective of Earth and the cosmos was very limited.

Oh... And I think you know what my answer is about Jesus' knowledge per the cosmos and how limited it may be.

 

[volprof]

I know we're currently bickering about religion again, but I figured I would post this here as well. This is an excellent documentary on the Space Race, and it is no wonder that CNN has received some Emmy nominations for this entire series. They've all been excellent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUe8r3tULLA

 

[PKT_VOL]

I got ya. But considering that you find it amazing that I view the universe as created for purpose, and the Bible as the word of God, I'm pretty sure you're not considering my point about the specificity of the word used.

But like I said... I don't know and am not particularly concerned one way or the other.

Like I said, I would grant you the better word (of the two) for your argument and the point would still stand.

The universe seems extremely pointless if Earth and humans are truly at the center of God's world. Seems like he could have put a lot less effort into creating countless other galaxies, stars, and planets and put more effort into perfecting the human race and planet Earth.

 

[PKT_VOL]

Oh... And I think you know what my answer is about Jesus' knowledge per the cosmos and how limited it may be.

Yes, I'm afraid I do. If he did have such knowledge, he didn't share.

 

[Orange_Crush]

Like I said, I would grant you the better word (of the two) for your argument and the point would still stand.

The universe seems extremely pointless if Earth and humans are truly at the center of God's world. Seems like he could have put a lot less effort into creating countless other galaxies, stars, and planets and put more effort into perfecting the human race and planet Earth.

Seems you're trying to define the Creator's purpose for design. Knock yourself out. As I mentioned earlier, I believe He told us what His purpose was, and also what His purpose for the 'sun and stars' was.

You don't share the same trust that I do in the Biblical record, so it makes sense that we would have differing thoughts on the matter.

(As an aside, I'm sure a God of infinite power appreciates your recommendation on efficiency. He's writing in his notebook now, getting ready for universe 2.0. )

Yes, I'm afraid I do. If he did have such knowledge, he didn't share.

He shared what He thought important to His purposes. Again, our difference of perspective on the matter is understandable.

 

[Grand Vol]

I know we're currently bickering about religion again, but I figured I would post this here as well. This is an excellent documentary on the Space Race, and it is no wonder that CNN has received some Emmy nominations for this entire series. They've all been excellent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUe8r3tULLA

Nice find VP.

And I'd say this is probably one of the nicer "bickering" I've seen since nobody has resorted to calling each other a stupid head.

 

[Danl]

Nice find VP.

And I'd say this is probably one of the nicer "bickering" I've seen since nobody has resorted to calling each other a stupid head.

Oh, shut up, stupid head!

 

[Grand Vol]

Oh, shut up, stupid head!

That doesn't count since you aren't involved in the bickering.

Reformat and resubmit within 30 days for further disapproval.

 

[volprof]

Nice find VP.

And I'd say this is probably one of the nicer "bickering" I've seen since nobody has resorted to calling each other a stupid head.

VolNation Politics Forum wouldn't be worth a damn without people bickering about something.

But I'm glad you appreciate (and hopefully enjoyed) the link.

I'll see you on the dark side of the moon, Grand.

 

[Grand Vol]

I'll see you on the dark side of the moon, Grand.

Only when NASA gets it's collective **** together and starts planning a viable Lunar base and going through with said plans.

 

[PKT_VOL]

Seems you're trying to define the Creator's purpose for design. Knock yourself out. As I mentioned earlier, I believe He told us what His purpose was, and also what His purpose for the 'sun and stars' was.

You don't share the same trust that I do in the Biblical record, so it makes sense that we would have differing thoughts on the matter.

I'm just trying to make sense of it. If mankind and Earth was his sole purpose for the creation of the universe, then everything else seems like such a waste. He could have very easily just had the solar system or the Milky Way if need be. If the rest had to be created for Earth to exist as is (some ID theorists have presented this argument), then you are putting restrictions on God which would kill his omnipotence.

Or, if you think nothing could be an accident with God, and everything has a specific purpose, then the rest of the (observable) universe and quite likely the multiverse was created for a purpose other than mankind on Earth.

(As an aside, I'm sure a God of infinite power appreciates your recommendation on efficiency. He's writing in his notebook now, getting ready for universe 2.0. )

If you give credence to inflation and a non-Copenhagen version of quantum mechanics, God is on ∞ universe already.

 

[Orange_Crush]

I'm just trying to make sense of it. If mankind and Earth was his sole purpose for the creation of the universe, then everything else seems like such a waste. He could have very easily just had the solar system or the Milky Way if need be. If the rest had to be created for Earth to exist as is (some ID theorists have presented this argument), then you are putting restrictions on God which would kill his omnipotence.

(I'm not trying to give you a hard time. Like I said, I understand your perspective. I'm just giving mine.)

Or there's another alternative... God was showing off.

Psalm 19:1 -- The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork.

Romans 1:18-20 -- For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

Perhaps He wanted to create the universe in such a way that, no matter how smart man got, no matter how hard we looked or far we saw... It would only reveal more of His power and glory.

Or, if you think nothing could be an accident with God, and everything has a specific purpose, then the rest of the (observable) universe and quite likely the multiverse was created for a purpose other than mankind on Earth.

Again... Those are some huge assumptions, which exclude a whole range of possible design purposes in the mind of the designer, as my example above notes one in particular.

Like I said, knowing you to be someone who does not believe the above revelations and attends to chance, I understand your feelings per the statistical probabilities of life elsewhere in the universe. I just see it from a different perspective.