Space Exploration

[hog88]

‘Towing’ Fee Is Asked by Grumman (Published 1970)

Grumman, builder of lunar module, sends tongue-in-cheek bill to N Amer Rockwell, which makes command module, for use of lunar module for 'towing' crippled command ship most of way to moon and back; bill illus

www.nytimes.com

Thanks, never heard that story before.

 

[Grand Vol]

There is a lot to unpack there. I am definitely not an expert on this situation but from what I have been able to gather in the last 72 hours: here are some of the complications as I understand them.
With regards to the suits and connections; apparently SpaceX being the efficient designers they are, hook their suits to the spacecraft with a single integrated cable with a single connector whilst Boeing Spacesuits have multiple separate cables each with its own unique plug. To make the two work together would require a fairly complex adapter that would have to be designed, built, and tested. It should be much quicker to simply make SpaceX suits to the measurements of the Dtarliner crew.
With regards to the undocking problem: I believe the actual act of undocking the capsule is only a small part of the problem. The process of gently backing away from the docking port without accidentally colliding with the station requires absolute stability and consists of multiple very precise maneuvers until the capsule exits the keep away zone surrounding the station. At that point, I think it is 200 meters from the station, making a spacewalk back pretty much impossible. And that would also assume that the astronaut doing the spacewalk back would have to be wearing an ISS EVA suit as the Boeing suits are simply pressure suits not designed for spacewalks. And I think the ISS EVA suits are too large to exit through the Starliner hatch.
So basically there are no easy solutions. Boeing has painted NASA into a corner here without any good way out.

Yeah, I read something about the Dragon connectors as well. But we are talking SpaceX and the same agency that figured out how to plug a square peg in a round hole during Apollo 13 with duct tape and various items lying around.

The docking issue is one that can't be worked around easily. Your adage of the car in the driveway was spot on. But while NASA has fallen in recent years, I do believe they are (or could be) motivated to work around the problems quickly. I'd be shocked if something wasn't already on the drawing boards for a way around that problem. They've known for some time Starliner was likely stranded and I'd bet they've already had Tiger Teams locked in rooms being fed Red Bull and bad pizza figuring out how to make it work.

As much as he's a political appointee, Bill Nelson has done a good job of running NASA. And I feel he's probably had teams working through every scenario including rescues they could think of since this first started. And I'd be shocked if heads didn't roll in that agency after they do get the astronauts back to earth safely.

 

[Grand Vol]

Thanks, never heard that story before.

It isn't well known, but funny since everything worked out. Allegedly, North American sent a reverse invoice to Grumman for all the other trips they "towed" the LM to the moon.

 

[LouderVol]

Yeah, I read something about the Dragon connectors as well. But we are talking SpaceX and the same agency that figured out how to plug a square peg in a round hole during Apollo 13 with duct tape and various items lying around.

The docking issue is one that can't be worked around easily. Your adage of the car in the driveway was spot on. But while NASA has fallen in recent years, I do believe they are (or could be) motivated to work around the problems quickly. I'd be shocked if something wasn't already on the drawing boards for a way around that problem. They've known for some time Starliner was likely stranded and I'd bet they've already had Tiger Teams locked in rooms being fed Red Bull and bad pizza figuring out how to make it work.

As much as he's a political appointee, Bill Nelson has done a good job of running NASA. And I feel he's probably had teams working through every scenario including rescues they could think of since this first started. And I'd be shocked if heads didn't roll in that agency after they do get the astronauts back to earth safely.

I would bet those teams already have a solution. just got to wait 4 months to get approval.

 

[Grand Vol]

I would bet those teams already have a solution. just got to wait 4 months to get approval.

In an election year and with Kamala in her role as Chair of the Space Council?

Doubtful.

As you noted, the PR on this can be disastrous. Right now, it's a Boeing problem. But if it turns into a NASA problem, it's on her record. It'll be fixed before November and she can get a "win" out of it.

 

[Grand Vol]

Listening to the media teleconference update with NASA. They admitted to considering using Dragon to fetch the Boeing astronauts.

Boeing Starliner: NASA considers tapping SpaceX to bring astronauts home

NASA astronauts Suni Williams and Butch Wilmore are still waiting for the greenlight to return from low-orbit. Under the contingency, they could stay on the ISS for another six months.

www.newsweek.com

 

[OrangeTsar]

Yeah, I read something about the Dragon connectors as well. But we are talking SpaceX and the same agency that figured out how to plug a square peg in a round hole during Apollo 13 with duct tape and various items lying around.

The docking issue is one that can't be worked around easily. Your adage of the car in the driveway was spot on. But while NASA has fallen in recent years, I do believe they are (or could be) motivated to work around the problems quickly. I'd be shocked if something wasn't already on the drawing boards for a way around that problem. They've known for some time Starliner was likely stranded and I'd bet they've already had Tiger Teams locked in rooms being fed Red Bull and bad pizza figuring out how to make it work.

As much as he's a political appointee, Bill Nelson has done a good job of running NASA. And I feel he's probably had teams working through every scenario including rescues they could think of since this first started. And I'd be shocked if heads didn't roll in that agency after they do get the astronauts back to earth safely.

Yeah, I have been pleasantly surprised by Bill Nelson. He has done quite a good job.
In terms of comparison with the NASA of Apollo 13 days; the big difference is that, even though the spacecraft were built by private industry, they were owned by NASA and the agency had full access to all design documentation. Starliner is a Boeing owned craft being basically rented by NASA. I am not comfortable that Boeing is being 100 percent transparent here

 

[LouderVol]

In an election year and with Kamala in her role as Chair of the Space Council?

Doubtful.

As you noted, the PR on this can be disastrous. Right now, it's a Boeing problem. But if it turns into a NASA problem, it's on her record. It'll be fixed before November and she can get a "win" out of it.

willing to bet she harps on the failures of capitalism with Boeing, but fails to mention the rescue ship will be the far better example of actual capitalism working after the government failed with Boeing.

 

[Grand Vol]

willing to bet she harps on the failures of capitalism with Boeing, but fails to mention the rescue ship will be the far better example of actual capitalism working after the government failed with Boeing.

There is that...

But looking like a February return is in the works. I'm betting pennies to dollars they aren't going to risk bringing them back on the Starliner and this plan to bring them back on Crew 9 is the path they are taking. We just got the soft opening today while they try to figure out how to get the junker out of the driveway.

No Administration is going to risk losing astronauts during an election year. And even with NASA saying they are "confident" in Starliner, Boeing's manned crew aspirations are dead. They've already said they won't bid on fixed price contracts any longer since they can't gouge the government for cost overruns.

I'm thinking today is the day the "old hats" in spaceflight just died and the new generation takes over.

 

[CagleMtnVol]

 

[OrangeTsar]

It isn't well known, but funny since everything worked out. Allegedly, North American sent a reverse invoice to Grumman for all the other trips they "towed" the LM to the moon.

Funny. But of course almost all of the towing TO the moon was provided by the S-IVB stage of the Saturn V during the Trans Lunar Injection burn. Coming back, the Service Model by North American of course did provide that particular delta v.
What I have trouble believing is that no human has ever underwent TLI or left earth Orbit since December 1972. That is a disgrace. It’s like a family taking their car on a cross country trip, then coming back to spend the next 50 years only driving around the block.

 

[W.TN.Orange Blood]

 

[Grand Vol]

Funny. But of course almost all of the towing TO the moon was provided by the S-IVB stage of the Saturn V during the Trans Lunar Injection burn. Coming back, the Service Model by North American of course did provide that particular delta v.
What I have trouble believing is that no human has ever underwent TLI or left earth Orbit since December 1972. That is a disgrace. It’s like a family taking their car on a cross country trip, then coming back to spend the next 50 years only driving around the block.

Well, kinda. At least the TLI burn from teh S-IVB pushed it... call it an assist like popping the clutch. (IYKYK and we're dating ourselves)

The majority of "towing" was still by the CM/SM. Though Douglas did have claim to charge them both for services rendered.

 

[Grand Vol]

One thing I did forget was the Dragon was originally designed for up to seven astronauts on board. I'm not sure if the Crew 7 ship has the capability to "add" the seats in or they are already installed, but there is that option.

 

[VOLALUM]

Lots of talk about this in the local news, but here is the latest. Lots of hurdles to get through, but it really starting to look like Crew-9 will be the return outlet.

"NASA had planned for that coming Dragon mission, dubbed Crew-9, to carry four crew members: NASA astronauts Zena Cardman, Nick Hague and Stephanie Wilson, as well as Russian cosmonaut Aleksandr Gorbunov. If the agency decides to return Wilmore and Williams on a Dragon spacecraft, however, that mission will change.
Under that scenario, sometime between mid-August and mid-September, the empty Starliner would depart the space station and use its parachutes to land in Utah. Then two of the four Crew-9 astronauts would launch no earlier than September 24. (NASA declined to comment on which astronauts would stay on the mission.) Wilmore and Williams would join that crew, and all four of the astronauts would return on the Dragon capsule around February 2025, officials said."

 

[twoffo]

A nice update that shows just how much is going on at Starbase and how quickly the 2nd tower is going up

 

[OrangeTsar]

Wow. NASA report calls for 'financial penalties' over Boeing's Starliner

 

[W.TN.Orange Blood]

 

[OrangeTsar]

Uh oh, those Martians don’t like it with other planets get in the way

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

Found this again. Pretty fun.

SPACEX - ISS Docking Simulator

This simulator will familiarize you with the controls of the actual interface used by NASA Astronauts to manually pilot the SpaceX Dragon 2 vehicle to the International Space Station.

iss-sim.spacex.com

 

[Grand Vol]

Wow. NASA report calls for 'financial penalties' over Boeing's Starliner

They've got too much invested with Boeing in other areas (like the SLS) to fine them over Starliner.

But I seriously doubt they are going to get another manned contract anytime soon. And honestly, had they thrown the money at Sierra Space and SpaceX in the beginning, I feel like we would have had two viable options for the crew systems at this point. Of course, Sierra screwed up by going with the Vulcan as the launch platform instead of working with SpaceX to modify the Falcon, so, there is that.

Regardless, I feel like Boeing's time as a prime contractor for NASA is coming to a close for the foreseeable future.

 

[OrangeTsar]

They've got too much invested with Boeing in other areas (like the SLS) to fine them over Starliner.

But I seriously doubt they are going to get another manned contract anytime soon. And honestly, had they thrown the money at Sierra Space and SpaceX in the beginning, I feel like we would have had two viable options for the crew systems at this point. Of course, Sierra screwed up by going with the Vulcan as the launch platform instead of working with SpaceX to modify the Falcon, so, there is that.

Regardless, I feel like Boeing's time as a prime contractor for NASA is coming to a close for the foreseeable future.

I think their future will be largely determined by the outcome of the Presidential election. I think Elon putting his finger on the scales is partly a bet on his part FWIW

 

[Grand Vol]

I think their future will be largely determined by the outcome of the Presidential election. I think Elon putting his finger on the scales is partly a bet on his part FWIW

Kinda sorta agree. I think SpaceX is in the catbird seat since they really are the only domestic game in town with a manned capability and the cheapest on the orbital launch capabilites. Even Northrop is using SpaceX as a launch provider at the moment until they can get Antares under way. The last Cygnus cargo module was sent up on a Falcon 9.

It never hurts to have one or both Presidential candidates in your pocket, but Musk certainly has made his political leanings known. However, even NASA would admit they would be lost without SpaceX right now since the Vulcan isn't coming along quickly enough and the NSA launches are taking priority.

I might even go as far as to think Trump might cancel the SLS outright since Starship is coming along fairly well. I never did understand why they were planning on taking the spaceflight equivalent of a Mini Cooper from Earth to the Moon with the Orion and then taking the Ford Excursion down to the lunar surface with the Starship. One might think a modified Starship (or a few) might make a dandy lunar space station as well. I tend to think someone at SpaceX has put such a design on paper and could get it worked up fairly quickly if needed.

I'm thinking a "wet workshop" mod or two along with two additional standard Starships modified for dry workshop duties (think like they modified Saturn for Skylab) could make a quite roomy lunar station. Add in some expandable modules from Sierra and you've got probably a bigger station than the ISS. And the dry mods keep the Raptors for station keeping and orbital changes. Surely I can't be the first to think of such a thing.

Such an idea might have kept Bigelow in business... they had a good thing going with the BA330 series.

Not that a monopoly on such a thing works well, but it would certainly set an example to others to be more efficient, cost efficient and, most importantly, more reliable.

 

[Grand Vol]

One addition to the above...

I would think Starship would also be well suited for the "lunar taxi" role as well, taking crews from LEO to cis-lunar space and vice versa. Not the reentry version, but rather one that just makes the trips back and forth. Perhaps a manned Dreamchaser taking the crews from LEO to the ground and using a new orbital station from Axiom, Blue Origins (lol), Northrop-Grumman (with the repurposed Cygnus craft like they plan on with the Lunar Gateway) or Sierra Space with the SpaceX filling station attached?

Yeah, I just spent a few billion dollars, I know. But well within the ability of all of the above to do so.

 

[twoffo]