Space Exploration

Are NASA's future missions and budget justified?

  • It's worth the time and expenditures

    Votes: 223 66.0%

  • Complete waste of money

    Votes: 41 12.1%

  • We need to explore, but not at the current cost

    Votes: 74 21.9%
  • Total voters
    338
#176
#176
In doing the research, one discovers that not only was von Braun a Nazi, but a member of the SS. And not only was he running the underground slave labor facility where his rockets were being built — he wasn't running the facility but he was in charge of the science there — but when they were running low of good technicians, Wernher von Braun himself traveled nearby to the Buchenwald concentration camp, where he hand-picked slaves to work for him as laborers.

When you see that kind of activity during the war, and you have to imagine what he saw and what he knew, it's impossible to excuse him from his Nazi past.
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Book Review: 'Operation Paperclip' : NPR
 
#177
#177
BearCat204 said:
I agree, but also very happy with the result. Also, space exploration/rocket engineering isnt the only thing that this country has had to rely on from foreign intellect.........its what makes this country great, we'll take all the good stuff from your country and make it ours. 'Merica
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We also trumpet being the home for the oppressed, while secretly protecting the oppressors for our own selfish gain.

That's really something to be proud of.
 
#179
#179
Orange_Crush said:
We also trumpet being the home for the oppressed, while secretly protecting the oppressors for our own selfish gain.

That's really something to be proud of.
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I know you keep beating this drum that Von Braun was instrumental in the oppression and crimes against people in Nazi Germany because of what some random author wrote in her book, but suggesting that it was more than just a "I'm going to keep in line so I dont get gassed", is an absurd stretch. There's a lot of truth that Von Braun was involved in the Nazi party, but I believe that his work after the fact is something that he should be judged on since it was done of his own free will.......not much free will in Nazi Germany.
 
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#180
#180
BearCat204 said:
I know you keep beating this drum that Von Braun was instrumental in the oppression and crimes against people in Nazi Germany because of what some random author wrote in her book, but suggesting that it was more than just a "I'm going to keep in line so I dont get gassed", is an absurd stretch.
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When did I say I got my info from her book? That was a convenient quote. I initially became interested by a documentary on the subject, which gave a great deal of info. There is plenty more out there.

I have already stated that I won't judge him too severely because I can't say what I would have done in his place. But I will judge his actions. And I will also point out that he overasaw and participated in some gruesome stuff-- even after objecting to it as against his conscience.

Just because he was a venerated friend of the family doesn't mean that he was an awesome guy who needs to be defended and exhonerated. Be happy he died before being brought to justice.
 
#181
#181
Orange_Crush said:
When did I say I got my info from her book? That was a convenient quote. I initially became interested by a documentary on the subject, which gave a great deal of info. There is plenty more out there.

I have already stated that I won't judge him too severely because I can't say what I would have done in his place. But I will judge his actions. And I will also point out that he overasaw and participated in some gruesome stuff-- even after objecting to it as against his conscience.

Just because he was a venerated friend of the family doesn't mean that he was an awesome guy who needs to be defended and exhonerated. Be happy he died before being brought to justice.
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Has nothing to do with his legacy. His work and his contributions to this country and its people speak for itself.
 
#182
#182
Orange_Crush said:
When did I say I got my info from her book? That was a convenient quote. I initially became interested by a documentary on the subject, which gave a great deal of info. There is plenty more out there.

I have already stated that I won't judge him too severely because I can't say what I would have done in his place. But I will judge his actions. And I will also point out that he overasaw and participated in some gruesome stuff-- even after objecting to it as against his conscience.

Just because he was a venerated friend of the family doesn't mean that he was an awesome guy who needs to be defended and exhonerated. Be happy he died before being brought to justice.
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An argument could be made that by picking that slave labor from the concentration camps that he actually saved those people's lives as well as his own.
 
#183
#183
BearCat204 said:
Has nothing to do with his legacy. His work and his contributions to this country and its people speak for itself.
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Ok. In your world being an SS major, overseeing concentration camp slave labor that was literally starved an worked to death, and hand selecting concentration camp slave labor for your projects, has no bearing on a person's 'legacy' because they came to the US and put men on the moon. The only reasons he wasn't tried as a war criminal were the facts that the govt hid his history and he died before it came to light. The sole reason these scientists surrendered to the US was to work out a deal that would save them from war crimes.


That's cool.
 
#184
#184
Grand Vol said:
An argument could be made that by picking that slave labor from the concentration camps that he actually saved those people's lives as well as his own.
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When they were worked to death and hanged daily as examples to the others that we're being worked to death? Ok. That argument could be made, I guess. But it would be a stupid one.
 
#185
#185
Orange_Crush said:
When they were worked to death and hanged daily as examples to the others that we're being worked to death? Ok. That argument could be made, I guess. But it would be a stupid one.
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Link? You've done the research, show the rest of us.
 
#186
#186
Orange_Crush said:
Ok. In your world being an SS major, overseeing concentration camp slave labor that was literally starved an worked to death, and hand selecting concentration camp slave labor for your projects, has no bearing on a person's 'legacy' because they came to the US and put men on the moon. The only reasons he wasn't tried as a war criminal were the facts that the govt hid his history and he died before it came to light. The sole reason these scientists surrendered to the US was to work out a deal that would save them from war crimes.


That's cool.
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You keep focusing in on the whole SS thing. Did we prosecute every member of the SS in the wake of WWII?
 
#187
#187
Orange_Crush said:
Ok. In your world being an SS major, overseeing concentration camp slave labor that was literally starved an worked to death, and hand selecting concentration camp slave labor for your projects, has no bearing on a person's 'legacy' because they came to the US and put men on the moon. The only reasons he wasn't tried as a war criminal were the facts that the govt hid his history and he died before it came to light. The sole reason these scientists surrendered to the US was to work out a deal that would save them from war crimes.


That's cool.
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Nevermind the fact that the reason they surrendered to US forces was to escape Nazi Germany and to also realize their dream of peaceful space research and to reach beyond the boundaries of Earth. You do know their research was started as this and was only corrupted and bastardized into instruments of war because of forces outside their reasonable control?
 
#188
#188
72% think it's worth it?! How many voted that it's worth the time and expenditures without knowing roughly what it costs?

NASA's budget next year will be around $17B. What are we getting for our money? Think of it like this....would you willingly send $60 annually to an organization that explores space (be honest)? Or $240 if you have a family of 4? I don't believe that 72% of you would, so why would you advocate that wasteful government forcefully take $60 for every man woman and child and spend it on space exploration?
 
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#189
#189
n_huffhines said:
72% think it's worth it?! How many voted that it's worth the time and expenditures without knowing roughly what it costs?

NASA's budget next year will be around $17B. What are we getting for our money? Think of it like this....would you willingly send $60 annually to an organization that explores space (be honest)? Or $240 if you have a family of 4? I don't believe that 72% of you would, so why would you advocate that wasteful government forcefully take $60 for every man woman and child and spend it on space exploration?
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Space exploration is very expensive, but very important IMO
 
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#192
#192
n_huffhines said:
72% think it's worth it?! How many voted that it's worth the time and expenditures without knowing roughly what it costs?

NASA's budget next year will be around $17B. What are we getting for our money? Think of it like this....would you willingly send $60 annually to an organization that explores space (be honest)? Or $240 if you have a family of 4? I don't believe that 72% of you would, so why would you advocate that wasteful government forcefully take $60 for every man woman and child and spend it on space exploration?
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I did post the budget numbers in the first post...

And yes, the byproducts of space exploration are well known as well as having practical impacts on the population at large. Artificial limb technology, water purification and solar energy technology just off the top of my head. Let's face it, NASA was "going green" way before anyone else. And we keep pushing the boundaries back.

I'd say $17 billion a year is money well spent from the technology that has been developed from the space program as well as spin off technologies from that as well.
 
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#194
#194
n_huffhines said:
72% think it's worth it?! How many voted that it's worth the time and expenditures without knowing roughly what it costs?

NASA's budget next year will be around $17B. What are we getting for our money? Think of it like this....would you willingly send $60 annually to an organization that explores space (be honest)? Or $240 if you have a family of 4? I don't believe that 72% of you would, so why would you advocate that wasteful government forcefully take $60 for every man woman and child and spend it on space exploration?
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If they were spending the 17B on actual exploration, yes it would be worth it!
 
#195
#195
Grand Vol said:
Link? You've done the research, show the rest of us.
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As I've stated, most of the info I got was from documentaries on the subject, which included pictures of the conditions of the slave laborers in that particular organization. The accounts of hangings, malnutrition and lack of medical treatment came out as testimony against Rudolph, which he himself verified. You may not like it, but it's on record.

Accounts of the hangings have provided some of the most dramatic moments in the Toronto hearing. According to evidence examined by the Germans, there were at least 253 hangings at Mittelwerk in a four-month period up to March 21, 1945. One hanging that month has been a focus of attention in the Toronto hearing, with Mr. Rudolph testifying that security police ordered him to shut down production and assemble other workers to watch the hanging of five or six workers from a beam attached to a crane arm along the assembly line.

War-Crime Charges Haunt Scientist - NYTimes.com
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It's on file. I never said that he was enforcing the treatment-- just that he was personally selecting people into this. Again, they also have documents of him sitting in on meetings discussing the use of said labor.

I really didn't being it up with the intent of pushing it this far-- just to make a point about the origins of our space program. If you believe that his (almost complicit) activity in this is not a part of his legacy, then that's on you.

My points about the origins of the space program have been made. It was an embarrassment from the beginning-- one that the gov't tried to cover up from the beginning.
 
#197
#197
Orange_Crush said:
My points about the origins of the space program have been made. It was an embarrassment from the beginning-- one that the gov't tried to cover up from the beginning.
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And this makes it different than hundreds of other government programs that have been done since our inception?

I'm not arguing for Rudolph, but we do and have done things as a nation that history will judge as questionable.
 
#198
#198
Grand Vol said:
And this makes it different than hundreds of other government programs that have been done since our inception?

I'm not arguing for Rudolph, but we do and have done things as a nation that history will judge as questionable.
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I agree. The space program was the subject of this discussion. :)
 
#199
#199
Orange_Crush said:
I agree. The space program was the subject of this discussion. :)
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And whether or not the money we've spent and continue to spend has justified the expenses.

I could stand on the Cold War premise that if we didn't collect those scientists during and immediately after WWII, the Soviets certainly would have. And I'm not entirely positive their intentions would have been peaceful in nature.
 
#200
#200
Grand Vol said:
And whether or not the money we've spent and continue to spend has justified the expenses.

I could stand on the Cold War premise that if we didn't collect those scientists during and immediately after WWII, the Soviets certainly would have. And I'm not entirely positive their intentions would have been peaceful in nature.
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I agree. They would have. It was a race. They surrendered to the US on purpose for fear of treatment by the Russians, who hated Germany. The Russians were extremely angry that the US got the scientists. The cold war began that day.

Like I said. I'm not sure we could have done anything differently. I just also think it was an embarrassment, and I know we used foreign science.

Those were my points directed at a particular post.
 
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