Status of Tennessee Baseball

[billmynatt]

I may be recalling wrongly, but somewhere along the line when Vandy was at Omaha before Dansby graduated, I believe it was said he turned down baseball scholarship money and told them to give it to another player that needed it more than him. I know for sure that was a circulated "good kid unselfish" story. I can't recall for sure if it was him.

Not true:

But his path wasn't certain. Swanson took out student loans to come to Vanderbilt, supplementing his athletic scholarship and financial aid to pay for the private school's pricey tuition rather than choosing a less-expensive option at a state university.

http://www.tennessean.com/story/sports/college/vanderbilt/2015/06/04/vanderbilts-swanson-soon-pro/28513899/

 

[bowlinggreenvol]

If a single baseball player gets one extra dollar in need or merit based money because of his athletic ability, it is a violation.

You seem to insinuate that it's happening at Vandy but unprovable.

Schools are required to have institutional safeguards to prevent it from happening.

Seems like the burden is on you to explain how they circumvent the safeguards.

Agree whole heartedly with the last part. Bruin throws out a lot of conjecture with this Vandy piece yet we have nothing of substance proving it. But his cousin works in compliance somewhere. One of my best friends is the Compliance Director for the SWAC; I'll see what he know about Vandy's scholarships....

 

[BruinVol]

He can't prove it. Rather than worrying about how we can fix our own mess, Bruin has spent countless hours worrying how Vanderbilt is kicking our butts.

What they do is completely within the rules and the athletic department has no influence on the decision making process for awarding grants and aid to students from "Opportunity Vanderbilt". IF they did, the program would have been busted long ago. With all of the chatter, do you not think the NCAA would have stepped in by now?

You should try rereading my post my friend. I am not saying Vandy is cheating. Hell their own website students with a family income of 180K-199k got over 54k in yearly need based aid. If you think that isn't an advantage you don't understand baseball at all but then again your reading comprehension sucks.

 

[bowlinggreenvol]

Yes I can't prove it but I am not saying they get more than any other student but I am saying they are at the top. Just hard to believe politics isn't involved when the award range is 5-54k. That's crazy wide

Could that not be dependent on grades/test scores and degree program? If we have the same income and my HS resume is better than yours perhaps I receive more money. Book costs vary by major/department as do additional fees for labs, trips, equipment etc. A literature major who's whole life is reading is going to have more books than a finance major.

 

[BruinVol]

Could that not be dependent on grades/test scores and degree program? If we have the same income and my HS resume is better than yours perhaps I receive more money. Book costs vary by major/department as do additional fees for labs, trips, equipment etc. A literature major who's whole life is reading is going to have more books than a finance major.

Sure it could be but need based aid is by nature based on financial need but we clearly see by the wide gap that Vandy uses it as a politics tool or for recruiting purposes of students.

 

[BruinVol]

Go to the websites for the schools he might be interested in.

Nearly all of them have calculators that tell you how much of what kind of financial aid you can expect based on your financial info and the GPA and test scores you expect your kid to achieve.

Generally speaking, if a student's academic qualifications are in the top quarter of the students attending a particular college, there will be substantial merit money available. (This does not apply to Ivy League, where the only aid available for anyone is need based.)

What kind of grades is top 1/4 at UT?

28act and 4.0 would be my guess.

 

[Diamond Dore]

From the linked document on Vandy's website:

"There is no specific income that will automatically qualify a family to receive need-based aid
at Vanderbilt. Income is only one consideration when determining eligibility for need-based
financial aid. Other significant factors include, but are not limited to: family size; number of
children in college; private elementary and secondary tuition expenses; and family assets.
Applying for need-based aid is the only way to accurately determine your eligibility for
such financial assistance."

 

[BruinVol]

From the linked document on Vandy's website:

"There is no specific income that will automatically qualify a family to receive need-based aid
at Vanderbilt. Income is only one consideration when determining eligibility for need-based
financial aid. Other significant factors include, but are not limited to: family size; number of
children in college; private elementary and secondary tuition expenses; and family assets.
Applying for need-based aid is the only way to accurately determine your eligibility for
such financial assistance."

Thanks. No formula means human influence. Nothing wrong with that as it's their school and they can do what they want.

 

[ShowmeVols]

What kind of grades is top 1/4 at UT?

28act and 4.0 would be my guess.

According to one college search site: 30 ACT or 1320 SAT.

The average GPA is 3.89 (weighted), so the 75th percentile is probably north of 4.0.

 

[BruinVol]

According to one college search site: 30 ACT or 1320 SAT.

The average GPA is 3.89 (weighted), so the 75th percentile is probably north of 4.0.

Very high marks to qualify for aid.

 

[bowlinggreenvol]

Thanks. No formula means human influence. Nothing wrong with that as it's their school and they can do what they want.

You not so-subliminally still insinuate that the baseball team is getting advantages because they're athletes. We (you) have no way of proving it so stop running rabbits. We're getting our ass kicked by public schools in the conference with podunk populations as well. That's where the starting point should begin.

 

[BruinVol]

You not so-subliminally still insinuate that the baseball team is getting advantages because their athletes. We (you) have no way of proving it so stop running rabbits. We're getting our ass kicked by public schools in the conference with podunk populations as well. That's where the starting point should begin.

Yes I think Vandy is getting advantages for their baseball players. Hell yea I do and I also think they are doing it within the rules.


Do you think it would be ok???

for the chair of the biology department to go to financial aid and say I have the next greatest doctor need here at Vandy and they really need finically help. Please give them as much as possible.


You see I think that is plenty fair and reasonable within their rules and I would bet my ass Corbin does it as well and I don't blame him.

 

[ShowmeVols]

Very high marks to qualify for aid.

It's a good school.

 

[bowlinggreenvol]

Yes I think Vandy is getting advantages for their baseball players. Hell yea I do and I also think they are doing it within the rules.


Do you think it would be ok???

for the chair of the biology department to go to financial aid and say I have the next greatest doctor need here at Vandy and they really need finically help. Please give them as much as possible.


You see I think that is plenty fair and reasonable within their rules and I would bet my ass Corbin does it as well and I don't blame him.

No I don't think Corbin does it. I think it's fair for the biology chair to advocate for the money because one is academia and one is athletics. I despise Vandy immensely but I also believe that deep down they're one of the few "big boys" who still actually care about academics and will always put it first. I believe they're glad to be good in something athletically but it wouldn't tear them up if they weren't.

What's never been mentioned in all of this is why hasn't Vandy always been this good if they have some built in advantage in which no other team in the SEC can compete? They went out and hired a guy who turned out to be a great HC and they've reaped the benefits.They're like Bama at this point, they have guys lining up to play for them, potentially at their own expense, because you're just about guaranteed to get a pro look, especially as a pitcher. We'll never know what's really going so I don't see the point in constantly talking about it and speculating. You have an opinion on who's getting how much money and at this point that's all it is; an opinion.

 

[BruinVol]

No I don't think Corbin does it. I think it's fair for the biology chair to advocate for the money because one is academia and one is athletics. I despise Vandy immensely but I also believe that deep down they're one of the few "big boys" who still actually care about academics and will always put it first. I believe they're glad to be good in something athletically but it wouldn't tear them up if they weren't.

What's never been mentioned in all of this is why hasn't Vandy always been this good if they have some built in advantage in which no other team in the SEC can compete? They went out and hired a guy who turned out to be a great HC and they've reaped the benefits.They're like Bama at this point, they have guys lining up to play for them, potentially at their own expense, because you're just about guaranteed to get a pro look, especially as a pitcher. We'll never know what's really going so I don't see the point in constantly talking about it and speculating. You have an opinion on who's getting how much money and at this point that's all it is; an opinion.

Glad you asked this. The answer proves the point. They hsnvt always had the need based aid to the extend they have now.

 

[FGT]

Glad you asked this. The answer proves the point. They hsnvt always had the need based aid to the extend they have now.

Yep. I'm good friends with a former assistant at Vandy who worked for several years under former coach Roy Mewborne. Not only did they not have access to the need based aid they have now, they were not even fully funded at 11.7 scholarships until around the year 2000.

 

[Diamond Dore]

Glad you asked this. The answer proves the point. They hsnvt always had the need based aid to the extend they have now.

It's also one piece of the puzzle. There are other schools that have this type of system in place that haven't been as successful as Vandy. Some of them have. I think the pieces (above and beyond scholarships) are as follows:

1. Corbin. One of the best in the game. I know some here think he's overrated, but I think that's lunacy. There are lots of programs that have been good for decades that have never won a title (MSU, Clemson, FSU, etc.). You can point to individual teams that have underachieved, but also to others that overachieved. Baseball is the hardest sport in some ways to actually win it all.

2. Family aspect. This is part of Corbin's prowess, but it deserves its own bullet point. The players that leave come back, hang around the program, give to the program, and generally invest in it with time and money. When you're a player working out right beside David Price, Sonny Gray, or Dansby Swanson, it makes an impact. Several of the guys actually live in Nashville in the off-season. Dansby Swanson just donated a sound system for the football weight room. The sports support each other in a way that I'm not sure happens on every campus:

https://twitter.com/VandyFootball/status/871860070346260480

3. Baseball is different. The minor league set up helps to benefit academic schools in a way that football and basketball do not. In football or basketball, there are tons of talented players that Vandy can never recruit. So not only can they never help you, but someone who reads at a 6th grade level can actually hurt you when some other school shoehorns them into college and they play against you. In baseball, anyone with serious talent who has no interest in school simply signs with a team rather than go to college. The players who do want to go to college, as a subset, are more academically inclined, and as such Vandy presents an attractive option for them.

4. The socio-economics of baseball as a prep sport. Travel teams cost money, in a way that AAU basketball isn't really comparable. The money and time required by serious travel ball tends to lend itself to higher income families, and higher income families are more likely to want to send their kids to a school like Vandy.

5. The school itself. Academic reputation and value of degree.

6. The city. Nashville has exploded with growth and is generally a very attractive city right now, particularly for young people.

7. Vandy isn't a football school. The lack of success on the gridiron has allowed baseball to carve out its own niche, not in the shadow of other programs on campus.People like a winner, so the donor class can gravitate towards baseball in a way where other SEC schools funnel those donors towards football or basketball.

8. SEC network. Baseball isn't a revenue sport at 99% of places. Which means that baseball is, to some extent, dependent on cast-off from football and basketball. Vandy's still at a disadvantage there, because the overall AD is not a cash cow like others in the SEC. But the SEC network has given a large influx of discretionary cash, and baseball I'm sure sees some of that.

 

[BruinVol]

It's also one piece of the puzzle. There are other schools that have this type of system in place that haven't been as successful as Vandy. Some of them have. I think the pieces (above and beyond scholarships) are as follows:

1. Corbin. One of the best in the game. I know some here think he's overrated, but I think that's lunacy. There are lots of programs that have been good for decades that have never won a title (MSU, Clemson, FSU, etc.). You can point to individual teams that have underachieved, but also to others that overachieved. Baseball is the hardest sport in some ways to actually win it all.

2. Family aspect. This is part of Corbin's prowess, but it deserves its own bullet point. The players that leave come back, hang around the program, give to the program, and generally invest in it with time and money. When you're a player working out right beside David Price, Sonny Gray, or Dansby Swanson, it makes an impact. Several of the guys actually live in Nashville in the off-season. Dansby Swanson just donated a sound system for the football weight room. The sports support each other in a way that I'm not sure happens on every campus:

https://twitter.com/VandyFootball/status/871860070346260480

3. Baseball is different. The minor league set up helps to benefit academic schools in a way that football and basketball do not. In football or basketball, there are tons of talented players that Vandy can never recruit. So not only can they never help you, but someone who reads at a 6th grade level can actually hurt you when some other school shoehorns them into college and they play against you. In baseball, anyone with serious talent who has no interest in school simply signs with a team rather than go to college. The players who do want to go to college, as a subset, are more academically inclined, and as such Vandy presents an attractive option for them.

4. The socio-economics of baseball as a prep sport. Travel teams cost money, in a way that AAU basketball isn't really comparable. The money and time required by serious travel ball tends to lend itself to higher income families, and higher income families are more likely to want to send their kids to a school like Vandy.

5. The school itself. Academic reputation and value of degree.

6. The city. Nashville has exploded with growth and is generally a very attractive city right now, particularly for young people.

7. Vandy isn't a football school. The lack of success on the gridiron has allowed baseball to carve out its own niche, not in the shadow of other programs on campus.People like a winner, so the donor class can gravitate towards baseball in a way where other SEC schools funnel those donors towards football or basketball.

8. SEC network. Baseball isn't a revenue sport at 99% of places. Which means that baseball is, to some extent, dependent on cast-off from football and basketball. Vandy's still at a disadvantage there, because the overall AD is not a cash cow like others in the SEC. But the SEC network has given a large influx of discretionary cash, and baseball I'm sure sees some of that.

Nice post. You are growing on me lol.


Imo Vandy would have about the same kind of success as Kentucky without need based money and that is becasue of how good a coach Corbin is.

 

[TNSportsman]

I think you could have stopped at #1 - Corbin. There are times that I've heard him on local Nashville radio that I'm absolutely blown away and its easy to see why parents want their kids to play for him.

 

[bowlinggreenvol]

Glad you asked this. The answer proves the point. They hsnvt always had the need based aid to the extend they have now.

They also didn't have the HC they have now or the influx or boom in talent in middle TN. If Vandy is still not financially cheaper than UT for in-state kids or cheaper for out of state kids than their home state public universities what advantage is there? That's where I think it's being over-exaggerated. If it's roughly the same cost then the advantage they have is they're able to attract kids due to their HC's success and their academic reputation.

Price, Gray, Minor, Everett; all local kids. If Vandy was/is $10-$15k per year cheaper than UT or Bama is for an AL kid, I see the advantage. If it's a wash or still higher where's the advantage other than being able to offer a national top 15 education for the same price as a public school education.

 

[BruinVol]

They also didn't have the HC they have now or the influx or boom in talent in middle TN. If Vandy is still not financially cheaper than UT for in-state kids or cheaper for out of state kids than their home state public universities what advantage is there? That's where I think it's being over-exaggerated. If it's roughly the same cost then the advantage they have is they're able to attract kids due to their HC's success and their academic reputation.

Price, Gray, Minor, Everett; all local kids. If Vandy was/is $10-$15k per year cheaper than UT I see the advantage. If it's a wash or still higher where's the advantage other than being able to offer a national top 15 education for the same price as a public school education.

It's not just one player it's a collection of all their players. It's why they have about 15 players in every class and they can keep adding more and more because the 11.7 or cutting a player is never a worry.

 

[bowlinggreenvol]

It's not just one player it's a collection of all their players. It's why they have about 15 players in every class and they can keep adding more and more because the 11.7 or cutting a player is never a worry.

It doesn't have to be just one player. If every kid is still paying roughly equal to a state school tuition rate for their given home state then they're not any better off financially. That's not an adavantage. If after scholarship, financial aid, need aid etc. it costs me $40k over 4 years to send my kid to TN or to Vandy it still costs me $40k. The advantage is the bargain at Vandy relative to its normal tuition and a quicker chance to win. Because you assume the $50k per year grants are going to baseball players at an "abnormally higher" rate you assume Vandy is getting a lot of kids on the cheap. If it turns out they're getting $20-$30k grants and still on the hook for $20k after that and their portion of the 11.7 then the tuition cost is on par with or worse than a state school. If 15 dudes per year are getting $50k cuts then it's hard to disagree with your stance but we don't and won't likely ever know that info. That's why it's nothing but message board conjecture.

 

[BruinVol]

It doesn't have to be just one player. If every kid is still paying roughly equal to a state school tuition rate for their given home state then they're not any better off financially. That's not an adavantage. If after scholarship, financial aid, need aid etc. it costs me $40k over 4 years to send my kid to TN or to Vandy it still costs me $40k. The advantage is the bargain at Vandy relative to its normal tuition and a quicker chance to win. Because you assume the $50k per year grants are going to baseball players at an "abnormally higher" rate you assume Vandy is getting a lot of kids on the cheap. If it turns out they're getting $20-$30k grants and still on the hook for $20k after that and their portion of the 11.7 then the tuition cost is on par with or worse than a state school. If 15 dudes per year are getting $50k cuts then it's hard to disagree with your stance but we don't and won't likely ever know that info. That's why it's nothing but message board conjecture.

They are getting over 50k IMO.

 

[bowlinggreenvol]

They are getting over 50k IMO.

We'll leave it at that then. My boss's nephew is one of the associate AD's at Vandy and someone I know in passing. I'd be interested in picking his brain on it but I doubt he would disclose much, if he's even in the know on that sort of thing.

 

[BruinVol]

We'll leave it at that then.

From your post you seem to agree that IF that is true there is a huge advantage. So we have common ground.

And one other thing that baseball scholarships can be combined with financial aid as well which is key.