Status of Tennessee Baseball

[BruinVol]

That's exactly what I said. The only reason/way he took student loans is the family chose not to pay out of pocket. If his family could afford $10k and Vandy made up the other $50k he wouldn't have loans. So either he chose to pay via a student loan or the scholarship still didn't cover the difference.

May wording as far as full rides was poor. I meant that Vandy is covering the full amount difference between ability to pay and cost of attendance. Even if that's the case the only advantage it gives them is in the case of low income players. If a recruit's family is deemed able to pay $40k of the $60k then Vandy makes up the other $20k. If you can afford $40k out of pocket then you can afford to go anywhere out of state and it simply comes down to a recruit wanting to attend Vandy over another institution. A partial scholarship and OOS tuition may still be a cheaper option for a family.

You are understating the significance of what they Get. A few years ago there was a link here showing off their own website that a 200k a year family income averaged over 50k of aid per year. I wouldn't call a family Making 150-200k poor.

 

[Diamond Dore]

You are understating the significance of what they Get. A few years ago there was a link here showing off their own website that a 200k a year family income averaged over 50k of aid per year. I wouldn't call a family Making 150-200k poor.

No, the median in the 150K to 200K range was around 22,000. Which would still leave an annual bill north of $40,000.

 

[bowlinggreenvol]

You are understating the significance of what they Get. A few years ago there was a link here showing off their own website that a 200k a year family income averaged over 50k of aid per year. I wouldn't call a family Making 150-200k poor.

Im "understating" it because I don't know their requirements/thresholds. I think of someone like Carson Fulmer. I'd have to see the numbers from both sides to definitively say he wouldn't have a had a better deal financially by attending UF or FSU over Vandy. He came from a private HS in FL so his family likely has decent money at the least. Bright Futures scholarship and athletic scholarship very possibly would have paid his entire tuition. If the financial package favored UF or someone similar then his choosing Vandy was simply due to he would rather attend Vandy even if it costs more and he could afford to attend Vandy now, when he otherwise wouldn't have. I think their aid isn't taking kids away from other schools because it's cheaper on the bottom line, I think it's more they're making it halfway affordable so families are willing to pay an extra $k's for the Vanderbilt opportunity.

 

[BruinVol]

No, the median in the 150K to 200K range was around 22,000. Which would still leave an annual bill north of $40,000.

Not the link as I recall but I could be wrong. Bedsides I am sure the baseball guys are on the top end of the awards anyway.

Do you have that link? I would love to see it again.

 

[Diamond Dore]

Not the link as I recall but I could be wrong. Bedsides I am sure the baseball guys are on the top end of the awards anyway.

Do you have that link? I would love to see it again.

Found it. I was mistaken, as the 22K was the 180-200k.

http://www.vanderbilt.edu/financialaid/files/Fall2016_Aid_Brochure.pdf

In that case, the median might be misleading anyway because the ranges go from $3k to over $50K. Even most in the 160K brackets and up are still paying $13K or so.

But, if we're being honest, most in those bracket aren't choosing between UT and Vandy on the basis of money. There are some kids Vandy gets who would probably be ecstatic to pay $20 or $25K for Vandy because they are paying more than that for private high school.

 

[bowlinggreenvol]

Found it. I was mistaken, as the 22K was the 180-200k.

http://www.vanderbilt.edu/financialaid/files/Fall2016_Aid_Brochure.pdf

In that case, the median might be misleading anyway because the ranges go from $3k to over $50K. Even most in the 160K brackets and up are still paying $13K or so.

But, if we're being honest, most in those bracket aren't choosing between UT and Vandy on the basis of money. There are some kids Vandy gets who would probably be ecstatic to pay $20 or $25K for Vandy because they are paying more than that for private high school.

The last part I agree with whole heartedly. For the families with "money" to begin with, the Vandy financial aid is not what's keeping them from attending UT or UGA in favor of Vandy.

 

[BruinVol]

Found it. I was mistaken, as the 22K was the 180-200k.

http://www.vanderbilt.edu/financialaid/files/Fall2016_Aid_Brochure.pdf

In that case, the median might be misleading anyway because the ranges go from $3k to over $50K. Even most in the 160K brackets and up are still paying $13K or so.

But, if we're being honest, most in those bracket aren't choosing between UT and Vandy on the basis of money. There are some kids Vandy gets who would probably be ecstatic to pay $20 or $25K for Vandy because they are paying more than that for private high school.

Thanks for sharing.


I have no proof of this but I would bet my ass that baseball players are getting the high end of those ranges. If you look closely you will see that the high ends of those awards doesn't decrease proportionally as income increases. That tells me those making the decisions are awarding whatever they want. That's where the NCAA should step in and say awards have to be the median/average of the rest of the students.

 

[OldTimer]

The Vanderbilt piece still doesn't make sense to me because it's well known Dansby Swanson took out student loans to attend.....

I read the article to say the student has to pay up to their ability and then the school pays what's the left.

Meaning if the family income suggest a family can afford 10 of the 60k that part is left to pay. Thus some families might choose student loans to pay that. I didn't think that story suggested full rides.

I'm pretty good at assuming and I assume Dansby's parents are from an affluent (not saying they are loaded) suburb of Atlanta and Bruin is correct in saying they had to pick up some of the tab to attend Vanderbilt as their income is in a higher than average bracket. As most "smart" investors invest, they take out a low interest student loan while another investment earns more than the student loan interest. As a wise man once said, some debt is good debt.

 

[OldTimer]

I'll let 66 analyze the comparison since he's so good at compiling data.......Since Vanderbilt University and University of Virginia are similar in grant (aid) money awarded as well as school prestige from an academic standpoint, compare the two baseball programs against Virginia Tech and Tennessee Baseball, strikingly similar I imagine. Both states have similar population and recruiting disadvantages and when you throw in an in-state rival who can offer "more" the two losers are obvious as well as the winners. Now look at football, the disadvantages are reversed. 5 bonus points may be awarder for the 2018 Pick'em for a job well done.

 

[buvol]

Just for potential parents of out of state students. There is a program called Academic Common Market which allows out of state tuition to be waived amongst cooperating states. Most southern states participate. It is based upon picking a unique major. If someone wants to get an engineering degree with a specialty in the automobile industry you might could waive out of state tuition to Clemson. There are more options for graduate school. I know parents of athletes and other students that look for "unique" majors for the student to begin their college career. You can google it. It is my understanding that the NCAA has gotten very tough on waiving out of state tuition. It used to be very common.

 

[vol66]

I'll let 66 analyze the comparison since he's so good at compiling data.......Since Vanderbilt University and University of Virginia are similar in grant (aid) money awarded as well as school prestige from an academic standpoint, compare the two baseball programs against Virginia Tech and Tennessee Baseball, strikingly similar I imagine. Both states have similar population and recruiting disadvantages and when you throw in an in-state rival who can offer "more" the two losers are obvious as well as the winners. Now look at football, the disadvantages are reversed. 5 bonus points may be awarder for the 2018 Pick'em for a job well done.

Tennessee ranks 9th in total revenue at 126,584,033.

Expenses 113,413,325, Tennessee gets no subsidies.

Virginia Tech ranks 40th in total revenue at 80,230,095.

Expenses 77,679, 721 with a subsidy of 8,127,300, Percentage subsidy, 10%

http://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/finances/

This is pretty old info...I believe our total revenue is getting closer to 150,000,000 now...

 

[bowlinggreenvol]

Just for potential parents of out of state students. There is a program called Academic Common Market which allows out of state tuition to be waived amongst cooperating states. Most southern states participate. It is based upon picking a unique major. If someone wants to get an engineering degree with a specialty in the automobile industry you might could waive out of state tuition to Clemson. There are more options for graduate school. I know parents of athletes and other students that look for "unique" majors for the student to begin their college career. You can google it. It is my understanding that the NCAA has gotten very tough on waiving out of state tuition. It used to be very common.

This is true and when I went to UT I planned on tweaking my desired major enough to qualify for this since no school in FL offered that degree. The state of FL "shares" in this type of program but only at the graduate level so I wasn't able to receive in state. The way I understood it when it was being explained to my parents, was basically your home state picks up the difference in money if they don't offer the major.

 

[ShowmeVols]

Thanks for sharing.


I have no proof of this but I would bet my ass that baseball players are getting the high end of those ranges. If you look closely you will see that the high ends of those awards doesn't decrease proportionally as income increases. That tells me those making the decisions are awarding whatever they want. That's where the NCAA should step in and say awards have to be the median/average of the rest of the students.

I'd take that bet except for the fact that the prize isn't something I want.

The NCAA requires that all need-based and academic merit money awarded to athletes be granted on the same basis as money for non-athletes. The decision has to be made outside the athletic department and without any regard for the athlete's status or athletic ability. It has to be just as available in the same amounts based on the same non-athletic criteria to all students at the university. Otherwise it counts against the 11.7 scholarship limit.

 

[ShowmeVols]

Just for potential parents of out of state students. There is a program called Academic Common Market which allows out of state tuition to be waived amongst cooperating states. Most southern states participate. It is based upon picking a unique major. If someone wants to get an engineering degree with a specialty in the automobile industry you might could waive out of state tuition to Clemson. There are more options for graduate school. I know parents of athletes and other students that look for "unique" majors for the student to begin their college career. You can google it. It is my understanding that the NCAA has gotten very tough on waiving out of state tuition. It used to be very common.

The bios for all of our players from Virginia and Georgia list majors that qualify from their states for academic common market in-state rates.

It's a sweet deal for the student and the school. If they are scholarship athletes, UT still has to pay the NCAA-required 25% minimum on the full out-of-state costs, then the difference between out-of-state and in-state rates gets subtracted, which effectively turns a 25% scholarship into about a 75% scholarship.

That's something Vandy can't offer.

 

[BruinVol]

I'd take that bet except for the fact that the prize isn't something I want.

The NCAA requires that all need-based and academic merit money awarded to athletes be granted on the same basis as money for non-athletes. The decision has to be made outside the athletic department and without any regard for the athlete's status or athletic ability. It has to be just as available in the same amounts based on the same non-athletic criteria to all students at the university. Otherwise it counts against the 11.7 scholarship limit.

And all that would be on the up and up. The awards would all be legal because they fit into the range given to regular students.

 

[ShowmeVols]

And all that would be on the up and up. The awards would all be legal because they fit into the range given to regular students.

If you're suggesting someone puts a finger on the scale to give athletes more money within certain ranges because of their status as athletes that would be a major violation.

Financial aid decisions for need and merit money are insulated from athletic department influence. It's okay to have a separate committee for athletic admissions, but athletes have to swim with everyone else in the common pool when competing for non-athletic money.

 

[GVF]

I'm pretty good at assuming and I assume Dansby's parents are from an affluent (not saying they are loaded) suburb of Atlanta and Bruin is correct in saying they had to pick up some of the tab to attend Vanderbilt as their income is in a higher than average bracket. As most "smart" investors invest, they take out a low interest student loan while another investment earns more than the student loan interest. As a wise man once said, some debt is good debt.

I may be recalling wrongly, but somewhere along the line when Vandy was at Omaha before Dansby graduated, I believe it was said he turned down baseball scholarship money and told them to give it to another player that needed it more than him. I know for sure that was a circulated "good kid unselfish" story. I can't recall for sure if it was him.

 

[BruinVol]

If you're suggesting someone puts a finger on the scale to give athletes more money within certain ranges because of their status as athletes that would be a major violation.

Financial aid decisions for need and merit money are insulated from athletic department influence. It's okay to have a separate committee for athletic admissions, but athletes have to swim with everyone else in the common pool when competing for non-athletic money.

Not a violation at all. The data linked here shows that the range for a student was 5k-54k for parents making 180-199k per year. That ones hell of a range. Absolutely no way to prove that Anything is wrong if the baseball players are at the top end of that range. Nothing at all.

 

[GVF]

All of this discussion I've been browsing leads to a question. Do schools like UT and Vandy operate similar to some of the Ivy League schools regarding tuition. A few of them do not look at a parents financials and ability to pay until they've been accepted. There are income thresholds, and if a families income is under 75K, they don't pay. I don't make alot right now and fall well below that, but my kid is pretty intelligent. Do places like UT and Vandy do the same. I know he won't elect to go to UT, but academically, I would not look down on him going to Vandy for the education aspect. ight now he is talking Ga Tech for engineering. Depending on what element of engineering he wants, TnTc good choice to stay close to home. I will push him to do his core years locally at the CC since it is now free, and credits transfer. I see it a waste to pay for the same classes for two years for no reason. But, he's 9th grade so who knows.

 

[ShowmeVols]

Not a violation at all. The data linked here shows that the range for a student was 5k-54k for parents making 180-199k per year. That ones hell of a range. Absolutely no way to prove that Anything is wrong if the baseball players are at the top end of that range. Nothing at all.

If a single baseball player gets one extra dollar in need or merit based money because of his athletic ability, it is a violation.

You seem to insinuate that it's happening at Vandy but unprovable.

Schools are required to have institutional safeguards to prevent it from happening.

Seems like the burden is on you to explain how they circumvent the safeguards.

 

[ShowmeVols]

All of this discussion I've been browsing leads to a question. Do schools like UT and Vandy operate similar to some of the Ivy League schools regarding tuition. A few of them do not look at a parents financials and ability to pay until they've been accepted. There are income thresholds, and if a families income is under 75K, they don't pay. I don't make alot right now and fall well below that, but my kid is pretty intelligent. Do places like UT and Vandy do the same. I know he won't elect to go to UT, but academically, I would not look down on him going to Vandy for the education aspect. ight now he is talking Ga Tech for engineering. Depending on what element of engineering he wants, TnTc good choice to stay close to home. I will push him to do his core years locally at the CC since it is now free, and credits transfer. I see it a waste to pay for the same classes for two years for no reason. But, he's 9th grade so who knows.

Go to the websites for the schools he might be interested in.

Nearly all of them have calculators that tell you how much of what kind of financial aid you can expect based on your financial info and the GPA and test scores you expect your kid to achieve.

Generally speaking, if a student's academic qualifications are in the top quarter of the students attending a particular college, there will be substantial merit money available. (This does not apply to Ivy League, where the only aid available for anyone is need based.)

 

[TNSportsman]

If a single baseball player gets one extra dollar in need or merit based money because of his athletic ability, it is a violation.

You seem to insinuate that it's happening at Vandy but unprovable.

Schools are required to have institutional safeguards to prevent it from happening.

Seems like the burden is on you to explain how they circumvent the safeguards.

He can't prove it. Rather than worrying about how we can fix our own mess, Bruin has spent countless hours worrying how Vanderbilt is kicking our butts.

What they do is completely within the rules and the athletic department has no influence on the decision making process for awarding grants and aid to students from "Opportunity Vanderbilt". IF they did, the program would have been busted long ago. With all of the chatter, do you not think the NCAA would have stepped in by now?

 

[BruinVol]

If a single baseball player gets one extra dollar in need or merit based money because of his athletic ability, it is a violation.

You seem to insinuate that it's happening at Vandy but unprovable.

Schools are required to have institutional safeguards to prevent it from happening.

Seems like the burden is on you to explain how they circumvent the safeguards.

Yes I can't prove it but I am not saying they get more than any other student but I am saying they are at the top. Just hard to believe politics isn't involved when the award range is 5-54k. That's crazy wide

 

[GVF]

Not to get into the middle of your argument, but I read the other day, and I will have to double check...either or both Arkansas and/or MSU are allowed to waive out of state tuition...to be honest I'm just now starting to try to wrap my head around why a school like that can do it, but we can't...I'm not saying it's a fact that I know, but it is something I'm interested in understanding better.

Could that possibly be stemming from the State Board of regents that govern UT system schools?? Would be interesting to know if Martin, Chattanooga, TnTc, Austin Peay or any of hte others governed by the regents waive out of state tuition. For a state school, i would have to conclude that stems from the state university system governing body. So, Arkansas and MsState may do so because of hte state bylaws and not the university itself. Arkansas couldn't do it if Ark-Little Rock could not.

 

[GVF]

Go to the websites for the schools he might be interested in.

Nearly all of them have calculators that tell you how much of what kind of financial aid you can expect based on your financial info and the GPA and test scores you expect your kid to achieve.

Generally speaking, if a student's academic qualifications are in the top quarter of the students attending a particular college, there will be substantial merit money available. (This does not apply to Ivy League, where the only aid available for anyone is need based.)

Good info. Thanks. I'm pushing him now to take his grades seriously as he moves into 9th grade. Senior year is too late. It takes all four years. He plays football and baseball, but the opportunity for that scholarship is slim to none. Not that he's bad. He batted over .500 this year and has always been over .350. that will go down as he begins a HS schedule. And he is excelling so far at football even though he has only played 2 years. It's just that tough to get one. At any level NCAA or NAIA. I was a very, very good baseball player, and was struggling to walk on at a NAIA bottom feeder before I lost my rotator. The competition level above HS is night and day regardless of where you go. So, you have to have the academics in order. He is intelligent, lazy, and hard headed all in one beast. He makes occasional A's and the rest B's doing nothing. At worse, he should be even split or mostly A's. That being said, most males that know what football is might could make the squad just to have bodies. Most of those players are not SEC talent at any other SEC school. Baseball there is different. You gotta have real talent.