Stop Online Piracy Act (SOPA)

#51
#51
Seriously? I thought you were an individual liberty guy. Why should you not own and control your own creations? Why should they be free to anyone?

Where do you draw the line with copyrighting your "creations"? If I'm the first guy to say "He got Tebowed" that's my creation. Should the law prevent anybody else from repeating my creation? At the root of it, it's the same as saying nobody can repeat your song. Nobody can repeat your painting. Etc.

Libertarians largely disagree with copyright law. Libertarians are all about freedom. There is no "right to not be copied" in my mind. Copyright laws restrict our freedom.

Copyright laws often just protect big corporations that aren't really the creators. The music industry is changing and labels are losing relevancy. SOPA is a way to protect their industry.

Louis CK just opted to sell his album for $5 with no copyright protection and he is making more money off of it than he knows what to do with. He gave his sound engineer like a $250K bonus. They cut out the middle man.
 
#52
#52
At all? Everyone's artistic expression should be free for all to use as they wish taking away the actual incentive to create?

Did Mozart sit on his thumb because there was no copyright law? There will always be incentive to create. That is a myth, IMO.
 
#53
#53
Where do you draw the line with copyrighting your "creations"? If I'm the first guy to say "He got Tebowed" that's my creation. Should the law prevent anybody else from repeating my creation? At the root of it, it's the same as saying nobody can repeat your song. Nobody can repeat your painting. Etc.

Libertarians largely disagree with copyright law. Libertarians are all about freedom. There is no "right to not be copied" in my mind. Copyright laws restrict our freedom.

Copyright laws often just protect big corporations that aren't really the creators. The music industry is changing and labels are losing relevancy. SOPA is a way to protect their industry.

Louis CK just opted to sell his album for $5 with no copyright protection and he is making more money off of it than he knows what to do with. He gave his sound engineer like a $250K bonus. They cut out the middle man.

1) on your Tebow comment - anyone can say it. However, if you trademarked the phrase and a particular artistic representation for a specific use then you can prevent someone from using that specific artistic representation (think logo) for that use without your permission.

2) you write a song and it plays on the radio - anyone can sing it, can play it in concert, etc. They simply cannot claim it as their own and sell it.

3) Good for Louis C.K. That doesn't mean that anyone's creations are free to copy and use or resell.

4) Copyright laws are NOT just to protect big corporations. If you write a song and make a recording of it, without copyright laws someone else could take that, sell it and keep all the money. The fact you wrote it would be irrelevant.

Let's say you write a novel. A big company gets a copy and decides to produce and sell it. You don't have the resources to compete. They popularize it and keep all the profits. Copyright law prevents that.

At the core - it is about private property; that is also the core of libertarianism.
 
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#54
#54
Did Mozart sit on his thumb because there was no copyright law? There will always be incentive to create. That is a myth, IMO.

Sure there will be. Does that make it right that someone else can reap all the benefits from your creation?

Why can't someone just take food from your garden? You can grow more.
 
#55
#55
Did Mozart sit on his thumb because there was no copyright law? There will always be incentive to create. That is a myth, IMO.

Your taking it to the extreme and using examples where the initial costs are low. You think anyone is going to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to create a big production movie if it is just going to be given away for free on the internet?
 
#56
#56
1) on your Tebow comment - anyone can say it. However, if you trademarked the phrase and a particular artistic representation for a specific use then you can prevent someone from using that specific artistic representation (think logo) for that use without your permission.

2) you write a song and it plays on the radio - anyone can sing it, can play it in concert, etc. They simply cannot claim it as their own and sell it.

3) Good for Louis C.K. That doesn't mean that anyone's creations are free to copy and use or resell.

But why are they to be protected in the first place? Do you think we have a right to not be copied? If so, where do you draw the line? Excerpts:

International copyright only came to exist in 1891 — it was the result of lobbying not by authors but by publishers!

[We] imagine that copyright is important for protecting rights, even though the practical reality is that it is a killer of ideas and a rights violator on a massive scale.

Did the internationalization and institutionalization of copyright actually achieved its stated aim of promoting literary work? There was no increase in copyright registrations as a percentage of the population between 1900 and 1950, despite the double lengthening of the copyright term. So much for the great outpouring of creativity in literature and music.

In 1998, the Sonny Bono/Mickey Mouse Copyright Term Extension Act ("the biggest land grab in history") boosted copyright by 40 percent but with what effect on incentives to produce? None, so far as anyone knows. But the publishers and moguls who pushed for this nonsense are surely happy so they don't have to work harder and can continue to live off the royalties of their long-dead predecessors.

Large swaths of the literary output of the last fifty years, for example, now lie buried in the vaults of large publishers who neither print them nor permit them to be printed absent some huge fee; nor will they return rights to the author. Nor will the publishers allow them to be posted. Getting them back in print is a very expensive and time-consuming operation.

Again, the beneficiaries of the law are not authors and not musicians and artists. Musicians themselves typically earn far more from concerts than royalties. So the conventional theory is wrong: copyright doesn't inspire creativity. These musicians would work and create without it; in fact, no one has a greater incentive for abolishing the current system than creators.

The Music and Book Killers by Jeffrey A. Tucker
 
#57
#57
Sure there will be. Does that make it right that someone else can reap all the benefits from your creation?

Why can't someone just take food from your garden? You can grow more.

Food isn't an idea. It's actual property. If they took your painting instead of copying it, I'd find value in this analogy.
 
#58
#58
Your taking it to the extreme and using examples where the initial costs are low. You think anyone is going to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to create a big production movie if it is just going to be given away for free on the internet?

Uh, yeah. They are doing it as we speak.
 
#59
#59
Sure there will be. Does that make it right that someone else can reap all the benefits from your creation?

Why can't someone just take food from your garden? You can grow more.

Speaking of, the guy who was first to grow the tomato as a business. He was creative. He invented the process. Should that be copyrighted?
 
#60
#60
Uh, yeah. They are doing it as we speak.

:crazy:

Really? You don't see the ramifications if there is no copyright laws to protect the distribution of the movie?

Any theater can obtain a copy and show it without paying any royalties to the content owner. I can put it up on a website charge nothing before it is even released in theater. It will never be shown in theaters because everyone has already seen it on the internet and streamed it to their hd tvs in perfect surround sound quality. The content owner can do nothing about any of the above.

Do you think they will invest in the next great movie?
 
#61
#61
:crazy:

Really? You don't see the ramifications if there is no copyright laws to protect the distribution of the movie?

Any theater can obtain a copy and show it without paying any royalties to the content owner. I can put it up on a website charge nothing before it is even released in theater. It will never be shown in theaters because everyone has already seen it on the internet and streamed it to their hd tvs in perfect surround sound quality. The content owner can do nothing about any of the above.

Do you think they will invest in the next great movie?

That's not true. The production company can write into individual contracts with theaters that they do not distribute the movie. Those that do will be in breach of contract. The theaters that do show Paramount's pictures without Paramount's permission will be boycotted by Paramount in the future.

I can watch just about any movie online for free as we speak, and I've been to the theater 3 times in the last month.
 
#62
#62
Speaking of, the guy who was first to grow the tomato as a business. He was creative. He invented the process. Should that be copyrighted?

No. It cannot be copyrighted because copyright cannot be used to protect ideas. Ideas can only be patented. You can only protect the idea if it is novel. If you had spent the time and money to invent a novel tomato or process for growing a tomato, you should be able enjoy the fruits (no pun intended) of your labor.

The world is now richer for your tomato invention because after the term of the patent, everyone is free to produce the same tomatoes. Further, the ability of obtaining the patent has given you the incentive to disclose your invention for the world to see and learn from. Without that incentive, you would have probably kept the process secret and only used it on your own farm.
 
#63
#63
But why are they to be protected in the first place? Do you think we have a right to not be copied? If so, where do you draw the line? Excerpts:



The Music and Book Killers by Jeffrey A. Tucker

I believe I have the right to control distribution of my creations. Likewise I have the right to extract value/rents from my creations. Without protection anyone can appropriate the rents/value eventhough they did not create it.

The ability to copy without adding creation has grown rapidly. Let's use your Mozart example. How could his work have been copied and value appropriated in his time? Someone could play his music (either from memory or sheet music) but of course that is still allowed by copyright law. Recording and selling was not an option and printing was highly limited so the risk that someone would appropriate rents from his creations was exceedingly low - as a result, the need for copyright PROTECTION was low. That does not mean that he did not own his creations and under general private property ideals should have say in how said property is used.

Bottomline, copyright protection is private property protection. Intellectual/artistic creations have value - the owner of that creation owns the creation and should control how that value is realized.
 
#64
#64
I have a right to keep someone from stealing my 'intellectual property'. That said, I am not quite sure what constitutes the theft. If I voice my ideas to any third party and they take it and run with it, have they stolen from me? I certainly chose to voice said ideas.

I think one can adequately protect oneself by refusing to provide a manuscript to a publisher/literary agent without an agreed upon contract that the publisher/literary agent will not go on to sell it while cutting the author out. Once that book is published though, it is made public property. If other publishing houses then want to reproduce and sell on their own, they should be allowed to do so; after all, this will only increase the publicity and notoriety of said author and allow him/her to publish the next work with the larger, more lucrative publishing house.

I also think that copyright laws have stifled the integration of literature. Think about all the stories revolving around the Greek and Roman gods, the Bible, Vampires, Dracula, Frankenstein, etc. If the original stories had been copyrighted, other authors would not have been allowed to build off of such themes as they would be stealing and/or plagiarizing another's intellectual property.

I see a great utilitarian argument for copyright and patent law when it comes to pharmaceuticals; pharmaceutical companies invest a lot of money in research and development in order to provide new drugs and new cures for diseases. To continue to operate and provide these benefits, they must be compensated fairly well and the only way to do that appears to be by given them control over the product for a period of years. Of course, this has also produced an incentive to constantly modify drugs to continue selling them at high-costs, this appears to be a waste of valuable resources (instead of slightly modifying Tavist, how about these brains are set to try to find cures for HIV and MDRTB), and it leads to a higher cost of prescription meds for those who need them most.

Maybe by removing the industry protections in the form of copyright and patent law and trademarks, a reduced salary for the medical field comes in to play. That reduced salary would eventually result in reduced costs of medical education and those that went in to medicine would be more concerned with actually helping others than with earning money.

I am not sold on the idea that the lack of copyright law reduces the incentive for creativity; hell, most of the bands that earn the most money are those bands that have been labeled as 'sell-outs' and have left any and all creativity behind them.
 
#65
#65
That's not true. The production company can write into individual contracts with theaters that they do not distribute the movie. Those that do will be in breach of contract. The theaters that do show Paramount's pictures without Paramount's permission will be boycotted by Paramount in the future.

I can watch just about any movie online for free as we speak, and I've been to the theater 3 times in the last month.

Good god. Think bigger picture. Not everyone pirates movies. However, if it was free to do so with no ramifications, it would be more easily available and even law abiding people would do the same.
 
#66
#66
Speaking of, the guy who was first to grow the tomato as a business. He was creative. He invented the process. Should that be copyrighted?

Did he invent tomatoes? If so, he may have been able to gain patent protection (different than copyright).

Patent protection is given for newly created, novel, plants.

Both patent and copyright protection has finite lifespans.
 
#67
#67
That's not true. The production company can write into individual contracts with theaters that they do not distribute the movie. Those that do will be in breach of contract. The theaters that do show Paramount's pictures without Paramount's permission will be boycotted by Paramount in the future.

I can watch just about any movie online for free as we speak, and I've been to the theater 3 times in the last month.

How are you going to stop the theater that bought a copy of the movie of the street and is showing it in their theater? There is no copyright protection. The content owners don't have a contract with the third party theater.
 
#68
#68
Good god. Think bigger picture. Not everyone pirates movies. However, if it was free to do so with no ramifications, it would be more easily available and even law abiding people would do the same.

What I'm saying is that it is readily available to me, cause I know where I can get it and not suffer ramifications, and I still go to the movie theater.

Again, Louis CK made his album free to copy with no ramifications, and he's raking it in. I see no convincing evidence that copyright laws give incentive for artists to create. It's just a way to protect the middle man.
 
#69
#69
Did he invent tomatoes? If so, he may have been able to gain patent protection (different than copyright).

Patent protection is given for newly created, novel, plants.

Both patent and copyright protection has finite lifespans.

Why? Shouldn't we protect their creations in the interest of their posterity? I mean, that's gotta be part of the incentive to create, right? Making things better for your offspring.....
 
#70
#70
I have a right to keep someone from stealing my 'intellectual property'. That said, I am not quite sure what constitutes the theft. If I voice my ideas to any third party and they take it and run with it, have they stolen from me? I certainly chose to voice said ideas.

If it's ideas then we are talking about patents. Copyright applies to direct copies - (e.g. you right a book and someone reproduces that book without your permission)

I think one can adequately protect oneself by refusing to provide a manuscript to a publisher/literary agent without an agreed upon contract that the publisher/literary agent will not go on to sell it while cutting the author out. Once that book is published though, it is made public property. If other publishing houses then want to reproduce and sell on their own, they should be allowed to do so; after all, this will only increase the publicity and notoriety of said author and allow him/her to publish the next work with the larger, more lucrative publishing house.

So if you write your one great novel and contract with a small publishing house. They contract with you and put it on the market. It sells some copies then Random House copies it and floods all the bookstores with their version. 90% of sales go them. That's cool? What if someone makes it digital and plasters it all over the web? You make zero dollars since no one buys it. Tough cookies? Should be free to anyone just because?

I also think that copyright laws have stifled the integration of literature. Think about all the stories revolving around the Greek and Roman gods, the Bible, Vampires, Dracula, Frankenstein, etc. If the original stories had been copyrighted, other authors would not have been allowed to build off of such themes as they would be stealing and/or plagiarizing another's intellectual property.

Authors do not have to copyright or can copyright but give permission for full distribution. Copyrights expire.

I see a great utilitarian argument for copyright and patent law when it comes to pharmaceuticals; pharmaceutical companies invest a lot of money in research and development in order to provide new drugs and new cures for diseases. To continue to operate and provide these benefits, they must be compensated fairly well and the only way to do that appears to be by given them control over the product for a period of years. Of course, this has also produced an incentive to constantly modify drugs to continue selling them at high-costs, this appears to be a waste of valuable resources (instead of slightly modifying Tavist, how about these brains are set to try to find cures for HIV and MDRTB), and it leads to a higher cost of prescription meds for those who need them most.

To split hairs - this is patent protection, not copyright protection.

Maybe by removing the industry protections in the form of copyright and patent law and trademarks, a reduced salary for the medical field comes in to play. That reduced salary would eventually result in reduced costs of medical education and those that went in to medicine would be more concerned with actually helping others than with earning money.

There is pretty convincing evidence that without patent protection, many innovations never leave the lab because of the inability to reward the risk in the development/commercialization of that innovation.

I am not sold on the idea that the lack of copyright law reduces the incentive for creativity; hell, most of the bands that earn the most money are those bands that have been labeled as 'sell-outs' and have left any and all creativity behind them.

I'm not an advocate of the "incentive" argument. I'm sticking with private property/property ownership as the basis. As noted above, any artist/author can choose to protect or not and if protected to enforce or not.

One final point, these laws require the owner of the copyright to police it's use and take action if they feel there is a violation.
 
#71
#71
Why? Shouldn't we protect their creations in the interest of their posterity? I mean, that's gotta be part of the incentive to create, right? Making things better for your offspring.....

Copyrights last about 100 years IIRC - mostly a practicality issue and historically tied to life of author.

Patents last 20 years - deemed sufficient to incentivize the risk to develop.
 
#72
#72
Again, Louis CK made his album free to copy with no ramifications, and he's raking it in. I see no convincing evidence that copyright laws give incentive for artists to create. It's just a way to protect the middle man.

Louis CK has every right to do this.

Wonder why he didn't do this with his first album?

Your last comment is weak - it is certainly protection for more than the middleman.
 
#73
#73
I'm not an advocate of the "incentive" argument. I'm sticking with private property/property ownership as the basis. As noted above, any artist/author can choose to protect or not and if protected to enforce or not.

One final point, these laws require the owner of the copyright to police it's use and take action if they feel there is a violation.

It's not private property. It's intellectual property.
 
#74
#74
Copyrights last about 100 years IIRC - mostly a practicality issue and historically tied to life of author.

Patents last 20 years - deemed sufficient to incentivize the risk to develop.

I know, but why? If it's their "private property" as you say it is, shouldn't it be protected until they decide to give it away? If you say no, then it isn't private property.
 
#75
#75
are some really advocating communal property rights (I mean, besides Volatile)?
 

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