Student Loan Forgiveness, Free College

#52
#52
Velo Vol said:
No, I'm pointing out that people with more education earn more. That fact seemed to be getting lost in the discussion.
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Do you think it might also have to do with how many of them there are? If everyone gets a college degree do you think that will help the employment rate?
 
#53
#53
Grand Vol said:
Earn more. But how long does it take before they get any kind of significant savings?
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It depends.

The real issue I see here is the cost of college. That's what's driving up debt. Proposals like the one above are treating the symptoms and not the disease.

textbook-prices-630x900.jpg
 
#55
#55
DancingOutlaw said:
Do you think it might also have to do with how many of them there are? If everyone gets a college degree do you think that will help the employment rate?
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Again, not everyone would go to college, nor should they. But for those who want to, they shouldn't have to mortgage 20 years of their life to do so.
 
#57
#57
n_huffhines said:
It's recipricol. Debt is a tool for increasing cost.
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I was at UT campus the other day admiring this structure. I've not been inside yet, but it occurs to me that many of the bigger building projects in Knoxville happen at UT. Surely this drives up tuition.

Perhaps I'm getting old, but I wonder how much of this is really necessary.

 
#58
#58
Suggestions for reducing the cost of education:

Gut administration
Gut athletic departments (sports get no $ from the university/taxes and profitable sports should help to fund the universities)
No more new buildings/classrooms to accommodate growth (handle the influx with online classes)
Put limits on textbook expenses
Increase professor load through more online courses
 
#59
#59
Velo Vol said:
I was at UT campus the other day admiring this structure. I've not been inside yet, but it occurs to me that many of the bigger building projects in Knoxville happen at UT. Surely this drives up tuition.

Perhaps I'm getting old, but I wonder how much of this is really necessary.

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Right, but what I'm saying is debt is a tool that allows them to raise tuition in order to pay for these extravagant buildings. We're in agreement that buildings like this are ridiculous, unless built by donations.
 
#60
#60
Hey, what about us that paid our way through college without student loans by working? I think reparations for already paid tuitions is in order. If there is going to be free stuff, I want my share.
 
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#61
#61
n_huffhines said:
Suggestions for reducing the cost of education:

Gut administration
Gut athletic departments (sports get no $ from the university/taxes and profitable sports should help to fund the universities)
No more new buildings/classrooms to accommodate growth (handle the influx with online classes)
Put limits on textbook expenses
Increase professor load through more online courses
Click to expand...

This is what I wonder about the "free" tuition proposals: what's going to be the economic pushback against colleges increasing tuition 7% per year?
 
#63
#63
Velo Vol said:
I was at UT campus the other day admiring this structure. I've not been inside yet, but it occurs to me that many of the bigger building projects in Knoxville happen at UT. Surely this drives up tuition.

Perhaps I'm getting old, but I wonder how much of this is really necessary.

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That's a symptom, not a cause, just like you mentioned yourself earlier.

The core to the whole system is a federal guarantee on student loans. The fact they can't be discharged in a bankruptcy also plays a part. If the loan is guaranteed, as the bank, why wouldn't you make it?

This brings in a ton of liquidity into the student loan market - students are encouraged to take them out, the number of people borrowing money increases, and colleges fall over themselves to attract students to their school because there's a ton of competition. An artificially-created level of competition. One of the big ways they fall over themselves to attract students is turn the campus into an adult day care center by building shiny new buildings like the Student Union in the video you posted. That also makes tuition more expensive, which is covered by borrowing more. It's a vicious cycle, all driven by the government guarantee.

It's just classic moral hazard. You'll behave differently if the costs/negative consequences to your behavior are borne by somebody else.
 
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#65
#65
Velo Vol said:
It depends.

The real issue I see here is the cost of college. That's what's driving up debt. Proposals like the one above are treating the symptoms and not the disease.

textbook-prices-630x900.jpg
Click to expand...

I understand the cost of higher education is only going up, but it's going to continue as long as the "demand" for a four year degree keeps going up. Regardless, I would like to see a breakdown of cost per semester in a "big name" school (UT, OU, OSU, etc) versus a smaller four year "no name" school with the same degree programs. I know having "University of Tennessee" looks better on a resume than "Southeast Oklahoma State" but regardless, the education is probably the same or maybe even better with smaller class sizes.

Anyway, my point was if a student goes $50-100K in debt over the course of their schooling, at what point do they actually start making a "living wage" as opposed to socking everything they can against a student loan?
 
#66
#66
Grand Vol said:
I understand the cost of higher education is only going up, but it's going to continue as long as the "demand" for a four year degree keeps going up. Regardless, I would like to see a breakdown of cost per semester in a "big name" school (UT, OU, OSU, etc) versus a smaller four year "no name" school with the same degree programs. I know having "University of Tennessee" looks better on a resume than "Southeast Oklahoma State" but regardless, the education is probably the same or maybe even better with smaller class sizes.

Anyway, my point was if a student goes $50-100K in debt over the course of their schooling, at what point do they actually start making a "living wage" as opposed to socking everything they can against a student loan?
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Maybe this is what you meant by putting the word demand in quotes, but a lot of the demand for higher education at the moment is phony demand. There are a ton of people in college who have no business being there, and really have no business borrowing money to be there studying some of the things they are studying.
 
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#67
#67
n_huffhines said:
Suggestions for reducing the cost of education:

Gut administration
Gut athletic departments (sports get no $ from the university/taxes and profitable sports should help to fund the universities)
No more new buildings/classrooms to accommodate growth (handle the influx with online classes)
Put limits on textbook expenses
Increase professor load through more online courses
Click to expand...

1. Agree - first government needs to restrict it's control over education as much of the admin growth is a response to new government regulation and reporting requirements.
2. It's an ROI thing - even "unprofitable" sports can have positive ROIs via donations from alumni and local orgs. Why not let the school decide if it makes sense to subsidize a program to garner revenues from donors?
3. Again, why set this restriction? It's likely too early to tell but I'd bet that online alum are less likely to give to their school than those who went live. Also, as teaching pedagogy changes so to do infrastructure needs.
4. Limits? How?
5. I'm not opposed but the result will be less research (which may or may not be a bad thing).

Interestingly most of your ideas are anti-market. And you call yourself a libertarian...
 
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#68
#68
n_huffhines said:
Suggestions for reducing the cost of education:

Gut administration
Gut athletic departments (sports get no $ from the university/taxes and profitable sports should help to fund the universities)
No more new buildings/classrooms to accommodate growth (handle the influx with online classes)
Put limits on textbook expenses
Increase professor load through more online courses
Click to expand...
That's treating symptoms, not the problem.
 
#69
#69
Grand Vol said:
I understand the cost of higher education is only going up, but it's going to continue as long as the "demand" for a four year degree keeps going up. Regardless, I would like to see a breakdown of cost per semester in a "big name" school (UT, OU, OSU, etc) versus a smaller four year "no name" school with the same degree programs. I know having "University of Tennessee" looks better on a resume than "Southeast Oklahoma State" but regardless, the education is probably the same or maybe even better with smaller class sizes.

Anyway, my point was if a student goes $50-100K in debt over the course of their schooling, at what point do they actually start making a "living wage" as opposed to socking everything they can against a student loan?
Click to expand...

The debt numbers are highly skewed towards private universities and graduate degrees. I'll have to see if I can find the data but saw recently the typical debt for a UG degree and it's more like $20K or something.

The big numbers (100K +) are typically either a couple degrees from private schools and/or professional degrees where the ROI might still be pretty good.

Bottomline, EW is using inflated debt #s to argue for a socialistic program that justifies a wealth tax.
 
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#70
#70
05_never_again said:
Maybe this is what you meant by putting the word demand in quotes, but a lot of the demand for higher education at the moment is phony demand. There are a ton of people in college who have no business being there, and really have no business borrowing money to be there studying some of the things they are studying.
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Yes, that was my intent. The perception that someone has to have a four year degree or they know not what they talk about.
 
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#71
#71
volinbham said:
1. Agree - first government needs to restrict it's control over education as much of the admin growth is a response to new government regulation and reporting requirements.
2. It's an ROI thing - even "unprofitable" sports can have positive ROIs via donations from alumni and local orgs. Why not let the school decide if it makes sense to subsidize a program to garner revenues from donors?
3. Again, why set this restriction? It's likely too early to tell but I'd bet that online alum are less likely to give to their school than those who went live. Also, as teaching pedagogy changes so to do infrastructure needs.
4. Limits? How?
5. I'm not opposed but the result will be less research (which may or may not be a bad thing).

Interestingly most of your ideas are anti-market. And you call yourself a libertarian...
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2. I consider a sports program in the black as profitable, whether it's including donations or strictly based on revenue. I do not think sports donations should be counted among funds available to go back into the university.

4. Maybe give professors a limit per student based on course level. It's hard to imagine anybody needs a $125 book for econ 101. There are unlimited free online resources to cover 101 material.
 
#72
#72
Velo Vol said:
This is what I wonder about the "free" tuition proposals: what's going to be the economic pushback against colleges increasing tuition 7% per year?
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It basically creates the Medicaid equivalent of education. If it's limited to "in-state" then universities will basically lose the bulk of their demand from out of state students. Pricing will in effect be set by some government agency (no idea how they'll account for cost of living differences in different geographies but is it fair to for the government to pay 2x as much for a student to go to school in California vs Tennessee?).

Massive amounts of negative, unintended consequences.
 
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#73
#73
Velo Vol said:
This is what I wonder about the "free" tuition proposals: what's going to be the economic pushback against colleges increasing tuition 7% per year?
Click to expand...
Don’t worry about that. Once the tax is I trod yes then it will co to us to increase. Just like every other f’n tax.
 
#74
#74
Wanna make college more affordable? Increase the supply and stop artificially generating demand.

Nah, let's have the government control the pricing and push the idea that everyone should go. That'll fix things.
 
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#75
#75
n_huffhines said:
2. I consider a sports program in the black as profitable, whether it's including donations or strictly based on revenue. I do not think sports donations should be counted among funds available to go back into the university.

4. Maybe give professors a limit per student based on course level. It's hard to imagine anybody needs a $125 book for econ 101. There are unlimited free online resources to cover 101 material.
Click to expand...

The donations I'm talking about in #2 are not donations to the sports program. For example, I doubt UAB's football program is profitable and I know athletics overall are not. However, the resurgence and investment in athletics by the university has generated a tremendous amount of donations to the university (not targeted at athletics). Clearly the same is true of schools like UT. The value of the sports programs is higher than the individual profit/loss. UK basketball is valued at 330 million! That ain't profit; it's exposure for the university and alumni affect for the school. Put another way, dumping basketball at UK would cost much more than just the loss of profit from the programs themselves.
 
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