Supposed Air Superiority

#1
L

lukeneyland

God Save the Heup
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#1
If the Russians have such an advantage in air power, then how did Ukraine manage to get a bunch of slow moving (relative to jets) helicopters into Russian territory to bomb a fuel depot? I have a poor understanding of aerial warfare, but to me it seems like helicopters would only be effective in a circumstance in which they had friendly jets maintaining air superiority. I guess my understanding is wrong because it looks like it happened. Interested to know what y’all might think, especially you that have served. Also please don’t merge this thread I wish to keep it specific to the aerial aspect of the war.
 
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#3
#3
Russia doesn't have a massive air power advantage.

Russia has a military and military industrial complex corruption problem. This rampant corruption, in combination with a lack of testing capabilities, allowed Russian to project more military might than they could actualize on a modern contested battlefield.
 
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#4
#4
KB5252 said:
Anything that can fly low enough can avoid radar and remain undetected. Quick, highly maneuverable helicopters are well suited for this.
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That makes a lot of sense. I imagine that is the best answer to my question
 
#6
#6
PKT_VOL said:
Russia doesn't have a massive air power advantage.

Russia has a military and military industrial complex corruption problem. This rampant corruption, in combination with a lack of testing capabilities, allowed Russian to project more military might than they could actualize on a modern contested battlefield.
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I guess that’s possible. I’ve been shocked by the way this war has gone.
 
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#8
#8
Russia’s military might has been embellished since WW1 but especially during WW2. The Germans defeated themselves essentially by waging war on too many fronts and incompetent meddling by Hitler. Flash forward their military was lumped into the same category as the British and American military. Truth be told outside of the T-34, which was obsolete by the end of the war, it involved very little innovation and military strategy. The greatest fear has always been there nuclear arsenal not their conventional military IMHO
 
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#9
#9
landscapingvol said:
Russia’s military might has been embellished since WW1 but especially during WW2. The Germans defeated themselves essentially by waging war on too many fronts and incompetent meddling by Hitler. Flash forward their military was lumped into the same category as the British and American military. Truth be told outside of the T-34, which was obsolete by the end of the war, it involved very little innovation and military strategy. The greatest fear has always been there nuclear arsenal not their conventional military IMHO
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That seems to be very plausible
 
#11
#11
landscapingvol said:
Russia’s military might has been embellished since WW1 but especially during WW2. The Germans defeated themselves essentially by waging war on too many fronts and incompetent meddling by Hitler. Flash forward their military was lumped into the same category as the British and American military. Truth be told outside of the T-34, which was obsolete by the end of the war, it involved very little innovation and military strategy. The greatest fear has always been there nuclear arsenal not their conventional military IMHO
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One thing you didn't include is Russia's long history of literally throwing bodies at situations. Sometimes even unarmed.
 
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#12
#12
lukeneyland said:
If the Russians have such an advantage in air power, then how did Ukraine manage to get a bunch of slow moving (relative to jets) helicopters into Russian territory to bomb a fuel depot? I have a poor understanding of aerial warfare, but to me it seems like helicopters would only be effective in a circumstance in which they had friendly jets maintaining air superiority. I guess my understanding is wrong because it looks like it happened. Interested to know what y’all might think, especially you that have served. Also please don’t merge this thread I wish to keep it specific to the aerial aspect of the war.
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I'm beginning to believe that Russia's entire military is smoke and mirrors. It may be that Putin didn't even know it was so bad. If all of the reports coming out of Ukraine are true it is almost beyond belief.
 
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#13
#13
KB5252 said:
No, Russia has more equipment. I believe Russia's equipment is aging and it's capabilities have been vastly overvalued.
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Which is probably why it struck west and not eastward at China or to the South at India. Putin probably thought his military could use smoke and mirrors and defeat Ukraine in less than a week.

But, you can’t wage a successful ground war without:

1: Air superiority.
2: An effective logistics branch.
3: A cadre of experienced NCOs.

On paper, Russia should have all of those, but it’s clear they don’t. Their success seems to be a matter of overwhelming numbers. But without the three things I mentioned, any ground taken is quickly lost under a coordinated counter-attack.
 
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#14
#14
As long as Russia doesn't have any sophisticated anti-aircraft radar/missile systems in the area, helicopters flying below tree top level (in valleys, streams, rivers) can perform relatively long penetration operations. When a sophisticated radar system is in the area that include AWAC's or fighters with look down/shoot down radar systems, most helicopters are at a disadvantage due to high radar reflectivity.
 
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#16
#16
Meanwhile, that 40 mile convoy outside of Kiev was unmolested for 2-3 weeks.

The Russians were able to send 30 missiles from Russian airspace into western Ukraine outside of Lviv without Ukraine or Polands air defenses detecting anything.
 
#17
#17
Hunerwadel said:
I'm beginning to believe that Russia's entire military is smoke and mirrors. It may be that Putin didn't even know it was so bad. If all of the reports coming out of Ukraine are true it is almost beyond belief.
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Which may get him asking what’s happened to all the money that’s gone to building a world class army getting wrecked by irregulars with AT weapons. My guess is the grift is pretty extensive.
 
#18
#18
DancingOutlaw said:
Which may get him asking what’s happened to all the money that’s gone to building a world class army getting wrecked by irregulars with AT weapons. My guess is the grift is pretty extensive.
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The grift in Russia as compared to The Pentagon? You sure you want to go down that road?
 
#20
#20
Rasputin_Vol said:
The grift in Russia as compared to The Pentagon? You sure you want to go down that road?
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I don’t see too many people joining our military to get rich. And we actually have the hardware to crack skulls if necessary. Russia looks like a bunch of yes men have been window dressing the strength of the military while skimming off the top. Now the rubber is meeting the road and the war machine we were promised hasn’t materialized.
 
#21
#21
lukeneyland said:
I guess that’s possible. I’ve been shocked by the way this war has gone.
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Be careful who you listen to in regards to how this war is going. Most of what you see from our media and western media in general is total crap. Most of the people in this thread, just as in the Russia thread, are just regurgitating fake news.
 
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#23
#23
Hunerwadel said:
I'm beginning to believe that Russia's entire military is smoke and mirrors.
Click to expand...

At this point, this theory is true beyond a reasonable doubt. If Russia did not possess an overwhelming nuclear threat, NATO or China would be able to overtake them within a month (if a conventional war broke out).

Hunerwadel said:
It may be that Putin didn't even know it was so bad.
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This is the most interesting part about this war.

Putin had been the most savvy leader on the world stage for a couple decades. He was able to successfully project Russian influence far beyond what their tiny economy and limited forward deploying military capabilities would normally warrant (Russia and China's military are built much more defensively compared to the US's offensive military). He wisely piecemealed very selective military/covert operations and brilliantly utilized asymmetrical warfare to project an inordinate amount of influence towards his objectives.

That's what makes this embarrassment so fascinating. Did Putin know about the military woes but was getting older and wanting to leave a much larger legacy? The problem with this hypothesis is that he used his continual power to patiently outwait foes. An undisclosed terminal illness could account for the lack of patience. He obviously miscalculated the West's response which is very uncharacteristic of him. Is that because his intelligence services are lying to him? The video from prewar clearly showed that his intelligence chief was afraid to report to him. In fairness, the strength of the West's response increased due to the war dragging on. Or, is his intelligence apparatus, specifically HUMIT, in equally bad shambles (minus Fancy Bear Cozy Bear)? Has his mental capacity been compromised? This doesn't necessarily mean that he is like Biden (who clearly isn't running the White House), just that his keen ability for risk assessment is compromised. The documentaries in a decade or so are going to be absolutely fascinating.
 
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#24
#24
volgr said:
Be careful who you listen to in regards to how this war is going. Most of what you see from our media and western media in general is total crap. Most of the people in this thread, just as in the Russia thread, are just regurgitating fake news.
Click to expand...
It’s very difficult for me to know who knows better and weed through biases
 
#25
#25
PKT_VOL said:
That's what makes this embarrassment so fascinating. Did Putin know about the military woes but was getting older and wanting to leave a much larger legacy? The problem with this hypothesis is that he used his continual power to patiently outwait foes. An undisclosed terminal illness could account for the lack of patience. He obviously miscalculated the West's response which is very uncharacteristic of him. Is that because his intelligence services are lying to him? The video from prewar clearly showed that his intelligence chief was afraid to report to him. In fairness, the strength of the West's response increased due to the war dragging on. Or, is his intelligence apparatus, specifically HUMIT, in equally bad shambles (minus Fancy Bear Cozy Bear)? Has his mental capacity been compromised? This doesn't necessarily mean that he is like Biden (who clearly isn't running the White House), just that his keen ability for risk assessment is compromised. The documentaries in a decade or so are going to be absolutely fascinating.
Click to expand...

Almost completely 100% wrong and great example of people just regurging the fake news they hear. Russia went in with a relatively small force intent on limiting civilian casualties, quickly knocking out Ukrainian air defense and other high priority targets to set up a slow ground offensive in which they would negotiate with Ukraine as they took more and more ground. They have liberated Mauripol and created a cauldron around the Donbas region where a large amount of Ukrainian fighters are trapped. The cauldron will slowly be closed in until Ukraine either signs a ceasefire or those trapped soldiers are decimated and Russia claims the Donbas.

This notion that Ukraine is fighting this to a stalemate or even winning isnt supported by what is happening on the ground.
 
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