Tennessee at Georgia Game 1 Thread - 7 PM - ESPN3

#226
#226
BruinVol said:
Just like a family making 200k shouldn't get 90% paid for from need based money which is exactly what is happening at Vandy. Both should be regulated
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Can you cite a source for this? I'm pretty sure it's a sliding scale and I've not aware of a household making $200k getting that kind of need based aid.

65K, sure. But I haven't seen the type of numbers you're putting out there.

My understanding is the reason for the range you mentioned is a scenario where a parent loses a job in the year that the child attends, but previous year's tax returns still show the larger number--which makes that aid recalibrate for the next year.

Even at the cite you mentioned, 46K is NOT 90% of 61K. Closer to 75%.
 
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#227
#227
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#228
#228
I hadn't seen that chart.

What was amazing to me was that 725 kids received need based aid. Vandy's entering class is typically around 1,600. So that means over half the class did not receive need based aid. (That has nothing to do with our discussion, just something that struck me about how wealthy half of the student body is).
 
#229
#229
Diamond Dore said:
I hadn't seen that chart.

What was amazing to me was that 725 kids received need based aid. Vandy's entering class is typically around 1,600. So that means over half the class did not receive need based aid. (That has nothing to do with our discussion, just something that struck me about how wealthy half of the student body is).
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Very rich group of kids coming to Vandy for sure.

Honestly I bet a lot of middle class kids don't even apply to Vandy Because they assume they won't be able to afford attending school there. You can bet your ass my kids won't make that mistake
 
#230
#230
And I'll agree that Vandy has an advantage in baseball. I've never denied that. But if the NCAA were to ban need based aid they'd be at a tremendous disadvantage. They're already at a disadvantage in basketball and football because of academic requirements limiting their recruiting pool, but that's the way it goes.

I look at it like a point guard who grows 6 inches over his senior year. All of the sudden he's a 6'8" player who still has the skills of a guard.

Corbin had created a formula that worked even before Opportunity Vanderbilt, and once it was in place, recruiting just got that much easier.
 
#231
#231
Diamond Dore said:
And I'll agree that Vandy has an advantage in baseball. I've never denied that. But if the NCAA were to ban need based aid they'd be at a tremendous disadvantage. They're already at a disadvantage in basketball and football because of academic requirements limiting their recruiting pool, but that's the way it goes.

I look at it like a point guard who grows 6 inches over his senior year. All of the sudden he's a 6'8" player who still has the skills of a guard.

Corbin had created a formula that worked even before Opportunity Vanderbilt, and once it was in place, recruiting just got that much easier.
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I don't think need based money should be banned just regulated.

I am fine with a pell grant range kid getting a high percentage of aid. 75% or so would be fair IMO

Any kid that doesn't qualify for the pell grant Shouldn't be able to get more than 50% in aid IMO

And kid with a family making over 150$ should get zero need based $
 
#232
#232
I think if the NCAA did come up with a solution, something like you suggested with some percentage above $200K counting toward athletic aid would be a good way to do things.

To ban need based aid entirely only hurts poor kids, and puts private schools at a huge disadvantage, which tilts the scale too far in the other direction. But a compromise would be a better solution---and I think Vandy would still do just fine under those rules as well.

A better solution would be if the NCAA would bump the baseball scholarship numbers up to 15 or 18, although that probably would just mean lots of schools would wind up cutting men's tennis or men's swimming, etc. to comply with Title IX.
 
#233
#233
Diamond Dore said:
I think if the NCAA did come up with a solution, something like you suggested with some percentage above $200K counting toward athletic aid would be a good way to do things.

To ban need based aid entirely only hurts poor kids, and puts private schools at a huge disadvantage, which tilts the scale too far in the other direction. But a compromise would be a better solution---and I think Vandy would still do just fine under those rules as well.

A better solution would be if the NCAA would bump the baseball scholarship numbers up to 15 or 18, although that probably would just mean lots of schools would wind up cutting men's tennis or men's swimming, etc. to comply with Title IX.
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The NCAA already allows real baseball $ to be combined with need based aid so the perfect solution is the NCAA limiting need based aid and then the school having to use baseball to make it work for the kid.

So that 50% limit I am proposing would still allow Vandy to add 30-40% of real 11.7 money to mAke a great deal got the kid

That's how this playing field should be leveled because right now getting 70-90% deals for walk ons is absurd
 
#234
#234
BruinVol said:
The NCAA already allows real baseball $ to be combined with need based aid so the perfect solution is the NCAA limiting need based aid and then the school having to use baseball to make it work for the kid.

So that 50% limit I am proposing would still allow Vandy to add 30-40% of real 11.7 money to mAke a great deal got the kid

That's how this playing field should be leveled because right now getting 70-90% deals for walk ons is absurd
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If I recall, not 100%, I believe David Price was "classified" as a walk-on at Vanderbilt and received 100% need based aid.
 
#235
#235
OldTimer said:
If I recall, not 100%, I believe David Price was "classified" as a walk-on at Vanderbilt and received 100% need based aid.
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I am sure it was close but sometimes things get exaggerated I would think

The same has been said about Pedro Alvarez as well on the same team

Really high profile walk ons lol
 
#236
#236
The current need based scholarship program was not in place when David Price signed.

That's not to say they didn't have generous need based aid before, and I have no idea what income class Price's family was in back in 2004 when he would've entered Vandy.
 
#237
#237
Diamond Dore said:
The current need based scholarship program was not in place when David Price signed.

That's not to say they didn't have generous need based aid before, and I have no idea what income class Price's family was in back in 2004 when he would've entered Vandy.
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Agreed.

The effect of need based aid also works the other way. Price could have been on 100% real baseball money because of need based aid used on other players thus saving the 11.7
 
#238
#238
Diamond Dore said:
The current need based scholarship program was not in place when David Price signed.

That's not to say they didn't have generous need based aid before, and I have no idea what income class Price's family was in back in 2004 when he would've entered Vandy.
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Two things I know for a fact. Vandy was not operating at the full 11.7 before Corbin arrived and the need based scholarship program was nowhere near what it is today.
 
#240
#240
FGT said:
Two things I know for a fact. Vandy was not operating at the full 11.7 before Corbin arrived and the need based scholarship program was nowhere near what it is today.
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This is astounding to me. I understand baseball was an afterthought at that time, but a division I, SEC school not fully funding what the NCAA allowed in a sport like baseball is crazy to me.

If I were the A.D. at Vanderbilt, I would think that the SEC network is the best thing that ever happened to Vandy athletics.

My goal would be for football to hope for 6 or 7 win seasons (and a bowl game would be the goal) and I would funnel the rest of the money to the other sports where Vandy can be competitive.
 
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#241
#241
Diamond Dore said:
That's a good point. Money is fungible.
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The formula for Vandy is

Need based $ on the middle class students. Probably about 20-25 players on their roster

Use the 11.7 on the most elite(those that aren't lower class) and the rich players. This would be the remaining 10-15 players.

That 11.7 goes a loooong way this way
 
#242
#242
The type of kids they recruit makes a difference too.

The private school/travel ball kids whose parents are plunking down $30k for high school probably are overjoyed to send their kid to Vandy for $20K a year, even though that's just a 66% scholarship.
 
#243
#243
Diamond Dore said:
The type of kids they recruit makes a difference too.

The private school/travel ball kids whose parents are plunking down $30k for high school probably are overjoyed to send their kid to Vandy for $20K a year, even though that's just a 66% scholarship.
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Sad to say really but a heck of a lot of kids are like that these days. Baseball is a majority middle to upper class sport
 
#244
#244
BruinVol said:
The formula for Vandy is

Need based $ on the middle class students. Probably about 20-25 players on their roster

Use the 11.7 on the most elite(those that aren't lower class) and the rich players. This would be the remaining 10-15 players.

That 11.7 goes a loooong way this way
Click to expand...

Diamond Dore said:
The type of kids they recruit makes a difference too.

The private school/travel ball kids whose parents are plunking down $30k for high school probably are overjoyed to send their kid to Vandy for $20K a year, even though that's just a 66% scholarship.
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I give credit to Corbin, he recruits great ball players who academically are qualified. Probably couldn't be done at any other school except Virginia. Corbin will never or should leave VU!
 
#245
#245
Diamond Dore said:
This is astounding to me. I understand baseball was an afterthought at that time, but a division I, SEC school not fully funding what the NCAA allowed in a sport like baseball is crazy to me.

If I were the A.D. at Vanderbilt, I would think that the SEC network is the best thing that ever happened to Vandy athletics.

My goal would be for football to hope for 6 or 7 win seasons (and a bowl game would be the goal) and I would funnel the rest of the money to the other sports where Vandy can be competitive.
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It is hard to believe but my source was on the staff with Mewbourne for several years up until the end. He recruited Mark Prior to Vandy, who left after his freshman year because of how bad the program really was. Not giving the full allotment of scholarships was not unique to Vandy. Virginia was never fully funded prior to O'Connor's arrival and Maryland had 6 scholarships as recently as 2005..
 
#246
#246
FGT said:
It is hard to believe but my source was on the staff with Mewbourne for several years up until the end. He recruited Mark Prior to Vandy, who left after his freshman year because of how bad the program really was. Not giving the full allotment of scholarships was not unique to Vandy. Virginia was never fully funded prior to O'Connor's arrival and Maryland had 6 scholarships as recently as 2005..
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Why do you think scott strickland hasn't won yet at Georgia?

That one shocks me
 
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#247
#247
That's part of what helps Vandy be competitive in a way they couldn't be in football, for example.

If baseball were like football, any advantage of need based aid would likely be offset by academic disadvantages. But in baseball the kids with no interest in school are just signing out of high school and aren't forced to go to school somewhere, so they aren't hurting you.

A friend of mine who went to Duke said that Coach K took this tact out of necessity, (easier in basketball where a recruiting class before the one and done days was three to four kids) going after private school kids. Eventually, it started working the other way, where the school began to essentially recruit itself because the top private school kids all wanted to go there. Then with more success admissions became more lenient, as K had the freedom to go get one kid a year who was outside of what Duke would normally accept (even under relaxed guidelines for athletes). That's morphed into what you see today when he can basically go get any one and done he wants because that's how the game is played now. He still gets the Grayson Allens of the world with 4+ GPAs, because those kids still naturally gravitate towards Duke.

I think Vandy has started in this direction in baseball where your private school/high academic achievers automatically gravitate towards the program because of visibility/success of the program, and the rest follows.
 
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#249
#249
BruinVol said:
Why do you think scott strickland hasn't won yet at Georgia?

That one shocks me
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Quite surprised he has not made more of an impact. He could very well be headed for his third straight losing season. It's all about recruiting. As bad a coach as Perno was, he could really recruit. The ideal setup at Georgia would be Strick as the HC and Perno as assistant and recruiter.

The state of Georgia is so heavily recruited by everyone it really takes a dynamic personality. You also cannot underestimate the impact of the four year transfer rule and the 25% minimum scholarship requirement has had. It's hampers the way schools in big talent pool states used to conduct business.
 
#250
#250
FGT said:
Quite surprised he has not made more of an impact. He could very well be headed for his third straight losing season. It's all about recruiting. As bad a coach as Perno was, he could really recruit. The ideal setup at Georgia would be Strick as the HC and Perno as assistant and recruiter.

The state of Georgia is so heavily recruited by everyone it really takes a dynamic personality. You also cannot underestimate the impact of the four year transfer rule and the 25% minimum scholarship requirement has had. It's hampers the way schools in big talent pool states used to conduct business.
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Georgia is the ideal state to recruit to. I don't buy any notion it hampers them. They get in state tuition and the the hope scholarship which is much better than tenn. It's a good mind IMO

I thought he would be killing it there already
 
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