Tennessee Lady Vol News

#10,126
#10,126
We'll probably go for 30 threes in some games if the opportunity presents itself. Working a 20 to 22 second clock how many shots that give you a game versus the usual 26 seconds or slightly longer to put one up. She wants the ball past half court in seven seconds or less if possible. The press is designed to extend the opponents clock making them work longer to get one up. So she likes two drivers and two shooters with the drivers getting to the basket or kicking for the three if cut off. That is most of the offense or transition downcourt fast enough to beat the opponent for a layup. She does want those shots though 20 a quarter would seem to be the amount she likes to see.

Marshall it was 18 shots per quarter and almost 8 were three point attempts. They averaged 21.6 points per quarter or 86.4 points per game.
 
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#10,127
#10,127
Rooster1 said:
I was wondering similar stuff. As we review the Marshall team TO margin, if I remember correctly, they were no. 3 in the nation at about +8 per game, I could be slightly off, need to check again. In any event, the other thing I seem to recall is their rebounding margin was approximately even on the season. I realize they took the most threes in the nation, and also were elite at shot margin per game and possession margin. My question is this, outside of TO and rebounding margin as well as any discrepancy in fouls committed, where do all of the extra possessions/shots come from over the opponent?

It’s there somewhere. I look at the box scores and in many games, even when Marshall was out-rebounded soundly and TO margin was around plus 8-10 they still got way more shots most times as opposed to their opponents. I think I’m missing the secret sauce here but I know it has to be baked in somewhere because the numbers say so.
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I think a few come from playing a 20 to 22 second clock while most teams go past 25 seconds to get one up. Getting a shot up three to four seconds faster than an opponent adds up to a few more shots in a 40 minute games. The way I have it figured you create an extra shot every six possessions so about three per quarter. So that could give you 12 more shots at the basket depending on how quick the other team played or got into their offense for a shot. The press is of course intended to create a turnover, but also to slow down the progression of the team in taking a shot and getting into an offense.

Seems the thing is to get more shots this way and hopefully win the turnover battle as well.
 
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#10,128
#10,128
Volfan2012 said:
I think a few come from playing a 20 to 22 second clock while most teams go past 25 seconds to get one up. Getting a shot up three to four seconds faster than an opponent adds up to a few more shots in a 40 minute games. The way I have it figured you create an extra shot every six possessions so about three per quarter. So that could give you 12 more shots at the basket depending on how quick the other team played or got into their offense for a shot. The press is of course intended to create a turnover, but also to slow down the progression of the team in taking a shot and getting into an offense.

Seems the thing is to get more shots this way and hopefully win the turnover battle as well.
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Thx 2012, last question, if rebounds and fouls are roughly equal, say TO margin is +8-9, where do all the surplus possessions come from, like 20 more possessions per game, because I get the extra shot margin by shooting much faster than the opponent…is it the same thing and I’m being dense? I mean I can read the season stats and Marshall did dominate possessions by a much wider number than the turnover margin in spite of equal rebounds and fouls. I know I’m missing an obvious answer because the results are there for everyone to see. Someone is going to answer and I’ll feel stupid no doubt.
 
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#10,129
#10,129
FWIW, here are some stats from before Caldwell took over at Marshall and after:

2022-23: 16.4 made 2s at 47%, 7.2 made 3s at 30.2%, 9.5 made FTs at 65.4%, 58.5 total FG attempts at 40.2% with -98 rebound margin and +43 TO margin

2023-24: 19.7 made 2s at 50.1%, 10.6 made 3s at 33.2%, 14.1 made FTs at 67.1%, 71.2 total FG attempts at 42.5% with -21 rebound margin and +262 TO margin

That's an uptick of about 3 made 2s, 3 made 3s, 4/5 made FTs, and an overall improvement of 2.3% FG shooting and 1.7% FT shooting with a whopping 12.7 more attempted FGs a game and a vast improvement in TO margin with a slight improvement in rebounding.
 
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#10,130
#10,130
AngryButchJones said:
FWIW, here are some stats from before Caldwell took over at Marshall and after:

2022-23: 16.4 made 2s at 47%, 7.2 made 3s at 30.2%, 9.5 made FTs at 65.4%, 58.5 total FG attempts at 40.2% with -98 rebound margin and +43 TO margin

2023-24: 19.7 made 2s at 50.1%, 10.6 made 3s at 33.2%, 14.1 made FTs at 67.1%, 71.2 total FG attempts at 42.5% with -21 rebound margin and +262 TO margin

That's an uptick of about 3 made 2s, 3 made 3s, 4/5 made FTs, and an overall improvement of 2.3% FG shooting and 1.7% FT shooting with a whopping 12.7 more attempted FGs a game and a vast improvement in TO margin with a slight improvement in rebounding.
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UT is going to be very exciting to watch next season not only because of the new regime and style, but mainly because the SEC has not really had a new brand of BB played in a long while. I watch all the conferences, not just the SEC, I’m a WBB fan that loves to watch all the good teams regardless of where they play. I haven’t missed many LV games these past 12 years if they were televised, but I bet the viewership numbers are going to rise from even casual WBB fans based upon all the factors at play here. It will be exciting to watch as it develops imo.

What will be the ceiling and also the floor this first season? I don’t know, but based upon how UT competed last season against SC and some really good teams, if they are better this year (Have to believe they will be) the ceiling is likely higher than most media outlets realize right now, so that is something to consider. I believe the hire of CKC is likely going to bear some fruit, even if the first season isn’t spectacular. And I’m not predicting that it won’t be, just for the record.
 
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#10,131
#10,131
Rooster1 said:
Thx 2012, last question, if rebounds and fouls are roughly equal, where do all the surplus possessions come from, because I get the extra shot margin by shooting much faster than the opponent…is it the same thing and I’m being dense?
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If you get up a shot in 22 seconds and the other team takes 25 it can add up to a lot of extra shots in a 40 minute game even with just a three second differential. Because every seven possessions you are taking one additional shot. So if you opponent ends up with 67 shot attempts in a 40 minute game you would end up with about 10 to 11 more shots. Just one way to do it of course. Turnovers, Offensive rebounds, foul line are all part of it.
That is the offensive plan the defensive plan is to slow down the opponent shot attempts by trying to slow their offense with a press. It worked a lot of the time for Marshall and sometimes it didn't work at all. Still whenever a team beat the press and scored quickly Marshall was down the court getting one up in just over 20 seconds. Need a lot of players to keep up that pace and why she does so much subbing.
 
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#10,132
#10,132
Volfan2012 said:
If you get up a shot in 22 seconds and the other team takes 25 it can add up to a lot of extra shots in a 40 minute game even with just a three second differential. Because every seven possessions you are taking one additional shot. So if you opponent ends up with 67 shot attempts in a 40 minute game you would end up with about 10 to 11 more shots. Just one way to do it of course. Turnovers, Offensive rebounds, foul line are all part of it.
That is the offensive plan the defensive plan is to slow down the opponent shot attempts by trying to slow their offense with a press. It worked a lot of the time for Marshall and sometimes it didn't work at all. Still whenever a team beat the press and scored quickly Marshall was down the court getting one up in just over 20 seconds. Need a lot of players to keep up that pace and why she does so much subbing.
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What about all the extra possessions? Thats what I’m trying to figure out, how CKC’s system generates so many more possessions per game without out rebounding the opposition, and with say +8 turnovers per game. Seems she is finding a way for an extra 12 POSSESSIONS above TO margin per game in light of the above stats. There is piece I am missing, again, has to be there because her teams do it.
 
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#10,133
#10,133
Volfan2012 said:
If you get up a shot in 22 seconds and the other team takes 25 it can add up to a lot of extra shots in a 40 minute game even with just a three second differential. Because every seven possessions you are taking one additional shot. So if you opponent ends up with 67 shot attempts in a 40 minute game you would end up with about 10 to 11 more shots. Just one way to do it of course. Turnovers, Offensive rebounds, foul line are all part of it.
That is the offensive plan the defensive plan is to slow down the opponent shot attempts by trying to slow their offense with a press. It worked a lot of the time for Marshall and sometimes it didn't work at all. Still whenever a team beat the press and scored quickly Marshall was down the court getting one up in just over 20 seconds. Need a lot of players to keep up that pace and why she does so much subbing.
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This sounds and looks like the Arkansas model. My hope is the new-look LVs will rebound, both offensively and defensively, better than Arkansas. If so, the LVs will squeeze out even more possessions. GBO.
 
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#10,134
#10,134
Rooster1 said:
What about all the extra possessions? Thats what I’m trying to figure out, how CKC’s system generates so many more possessions per game without out rebounding the opposition, and with say +8 turnovers per game. Seems she is finding a way for an extra 12 POSSESSIONS above TO margin per game in light of the above stats. There is piece I am missing, again, has to be there because her teams do it.
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Marshall was 7th in the NCAA in offensive rebounding last season. That will get you a lot of extra shots.
 
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#10,136
#10,136
Volfan2012 said:
If you get up a shot in 22 seconds and the other team takes 25 it can add up to a lot of extra shots in a 40 minute game even with just a three second differential. Because every seven possessions you are taking one additional shot. So if you opponent ends up with 67 shot attempts in a 40 minute game you would end up with about 10 to 11 more shots. Just one way to do it of course. Turnovers, Offensive rebounds, foul line are all part of it.
That is the offensive plan the defensive plan is to slow down the opponent shot attempts by trying to slow their offense with a press. It worked a lot of the time for Marshall and sometimes it didn't work at all. Still whenever a team beat the press and scored quickly Marshall was down the court getting one up in just over 20 seconds. Need a lot of players to keep up that pace and why she does so much subbing.
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This analysis is inaccurate, conceptually.
Follow me on this. I know this is outside the rules as far as the possession clock goes, but the principal stands. If one team took a shot every 20 seconds and the opposition took one every 40 seconds, the following will happen. ( I know it's outside the rules, but I'm using 20 and 40 to illustrate my point and it's a convenient number).
So each team takes 1 shot per minute. Providing turnovers, fouls and rebounds are equal, both teams will take the SAME amount of shots for the game.
(10 shots per 10 minute quarter, 40 shots per game). The only difference is one team takes twice as long before they shoot the ball.
You don't get more shots than your opposition by shooting quickly. You get them principally by being more effective in creating turnovers and out rebounding your opponent.
 
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#10,137
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#10,138
#10,138
volnationnj said:
You don't get more shots than your opposition by shooting quickly.
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In the Marshall game I watched, there were many forced shots.Exactly like Arky. Throw up anything just to make sure you get a shot up in the alloted time. Why do this? Take a good shot to begin with then you don't have to worry about extra possesions.. I'm all for faster pace and tough D, but why make the game harder than it needs to be?
 
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#10,139
#10,139
volnationnj said:
This analysis is inaccurate, conceptually.
Follow me on this. I know this is outside the rules as far as the possession clock goes, but the principal stands. If one team took a shot every 20 seconds and the opposition took one every 40 seconds, the following will happen. ( I know it's outside the rules, but I'm using 20 and 40 to illustrate my point and it's a convenient number).
So each team takes 1 shot per minute. Providing turnovers, fouls and rebounds are equal, both teams will take the SAME amount of shots for the game.
(10 shots per 10 minute quarter, 40 shots per game). The only difference is one team takes twice as long before they shoot the ball.
You don't get more shots than your opposition by shooting quickly. You get them principally by being more effective in creating turnovers and out rebounding your opponent.
Click to expand...
Technically, you're 100% correct. The problem is the numbers don't account for the human instinct. If I gain control of the game tempo, I can speed u up naturally. You might not turn it over when I press, but I can still get you to speed up. You're not running 40 seconds off the clock if I full court press. A good defensive coach will likely have some sort of trap once u cross half court. You simply muddy the game up and teams will speed up, because it's the right thing to do if you can hit the wide open player
 
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#10,140
#10,140
I’m wondering. At the end of the season, has the style of play of Kim’s teams resulted in them having a tangible advantage in the postseason because they are in better condition than everyone else?

Obviously her teams have been successful, so it would appear to be advantage. That said, I’ve always suspected different groups handle the long haul physically differently, and some are worn down by the end of the season.

So I guess we’ll just have to wait and see how our players handle the extra physical exertion. Advantage down the stretch? Or too tired to hoist a trophy?

Can’t wait for this season! Dang. Still, what, 6 months to wait? Gawd. I’ll be nuts by then. 😂
 
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#10,141
#10,141
lvocd said:
I’m wondering. At the end of the season, has the style of play of Kim’s teams resulted in them having a tangible advantage in the postseason because they are in better condition than everyone else?

Obviously her teams have been successful, so it would appear to be advantage. That said, I’ve always suspected different groups handle the long haul physically differently, and some are worn down by the end of the season.

So I guess we’ll just have to wait and see how our players handle the extra physical exertion. Advantage down the stretch? Or too tired to hoist a trophy?

Can’t wait for this season! Dang. Still, what, 6 months to wait? Gawd. I’ll be nuts by then. 😂
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I was watching a news story on marshall versus app state…. App State was substituting 5 players in every time Marshall subbed…. In the second half…. App State was still gassed.
 
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#10,142
#10,142
volnationnj said:
This analysis is inaccurate, conceptually.
Follow me on this. I know this is outside the rules as far as the possession clock goes, but the principal stands. If one team took a shot every 20 seconds and the opposition took one every 40 seconds, the following will happen. ( I know it's outside the rules, but I'm using 20 and 40 to illustrate my point and it's a convenient number).
So each team takes 1 shot per minute. Providing turnovers, fouls and rebounds are equal, both teams will take the SAME amount of shots for the game.
(10 shots per 10 minute quarter, 40 shots per game). The only difference is one team takes twice as long before they shoot the ball.
You don't get more shots than your opposition by shooting quickly. You get them principally by being more effective in creating turnovers and out rebounding your opponent.
Click to expand...
So how does CKC’s teams, who had a negative rebounding number last year, coupled with a plus 8 turnover margin get something like 20 more possessions and sometimes more than 20+ shots a game over their opponents? That was my initial question…they do it though so there has to be an answer.
 
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#10,146
#10,146
Rooster1 said:
What about possessions? What is the secret sauce there, because overall rebounding looked like this..

www.ncaa.com

NCAA College Women's Basketball DI current team Stats | NCAA.com

Discover the current NCAA Division I Women's Basketball leaders in every stats category, as well as historic leaders.
www.ncaa.com www.ncaa.com
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I’m guessing the reasons why the rebound margin isn’t that high is that Marshall allowed Opponents to shoot 45% when they did get a shot off. They were number 329 in D1 in that stat. If a team scores half the time that they take a shot you’ll have less defensive rebounds for you and less offensive rebounds for your opponent. Where Marshall gets extra possessions is from turnovers and getting over 16 offensive rebounds compared to hardly any offensive rebounds for the other team bc they are shooting 45% to begin with.
 
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#10,147
#10,147
volnationnj said:
This analysis is inaccurate, conceptually.
Follow me on this. I know this is outside the rules as far as the possession clock goes, but the principal stands. If one team took a shot every 20 seconds and the opposition took one every 40 seconds, the following will happen. ( I know it's outside the rules, but I'm using 20 and 40 to illustrate my point and it's a convenient number).
So each team takes 1 shot per minute. Providing turnovers, fouls and rebounds are equal, both teams will take the SAME amount of shots for the game.
(10 shots per 10 minute quarter, 40 shots per game). The only difference is one team takes twice as long before they shoot the ball.
You don't get more shots than your opposition by shooting quickly. You get them principally by being more effective in creating turnovers and out rebounding your opponent.
Click to expand...
You do when you have 10 steals more and 6 fewer turn overs per game than the team you are playing.
 
#10,148
#10,148
spojo13 said:
I’m guessing the reasons why the rebound margin isn’t that high is that Marshall allowed Opponents to shoot 45% when they did get a shot off. They were number 329 in D1 in that stat. If a team scores half the time that they take a shot you’ll have less defensive rebounds for you and less offensive rebounds for your opponent. Where Marshall gets extra possessions is from turnovers and getting over 16 offensive rebounds compared to hardly any offensive rebounds for the other team bc they are shooting 45% to begin with.
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Thank you!
 
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