Tennessee Not A Blip On The Radar

#26
#26
KB5252 said:
We have taken such a hit over the past four years that recruiting to win championships simply isn't an option. The best we could hope for would be to take chances on higher rated players with character issues or academic question marks which is a portion of the problem that landed us where we are now.

Best to recruit players you think you can coach up who won't be distractions or fail academically. Build on those players until you can compete for the better athletes out of high school. I am not advocating for or against this scenario but it certainly appears this is the tact Dooley is taking for better or worse.
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Well thought
 
#27
#27
KB5252 said:
We have taken such a hit over the past four years that recruiting to win championships simply isn't an option. The best we could hope for would be to take chances on higher rated players with character issues or academic question marks which is a portion of the problem that landed us where we are now.

Best to recruit players you think you can coach up who won't be distractions or fail academically. Build on those players until you can compete for the better athletes out of high school. I am not advocating for or against this scenario but it certainly appears this is the tact Dooley is taking for better or worse.
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Yes I agree with you that in the position UT is in right now it is hard to get the elite kids unless they have character issues. Dooley might be doing the smart thing by recruiting the way he is,but if he continues to recruit this way for more than one recruiting season he will most like be just a transition coach for UT. UT will keep him for 2 or 3 seasons to get the numbers back up then hire a more proven coach. It might be a bad idea but I think Dooley needs to take a few risks on highly ranked kids with character issues and try coach them up(keep them out of trouble), this is the best way for him to get the talent level up quickly and start winning sooner. The sooner he wins the more likely it is that he will keep this job for the long term. Also Florida takes a lot of risks on guys with character issues and its working out for them. Another thing is that even a lot of the 3 stars have character issues, so its never a given that some one will have good character until they get to campus.
 
#28
#28
IndianVol said:
Yes I agree with you that in the position UT is in right now it is hard to get the elite kids unless they have character issues. Dooley might be doing the smart thing by recruiting the way he is,but if he continues to recruit this way for more than one recruiting season he will most like be just a transition coach for UT. UT will keep him for 2 or 3 seasons to get the numbers back up then hire a more proven coach. It might be a bad idea but I think Dooley needs to take a few risks on highly ranked kids with character issues and try coach them up(keep them out of trouble), this is the best way for him to get the talent level up quickly and start winning sooner. The sooner he wins the more likely it is that he will keep this job for the long term. Also Florida takes a lot of risks on guys with character issues and its working out for them. Another thing is that even a lot of the 3 stars have character issues, so its never a given that some one will have good character until they get to campus.
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I couldn't disagree more. The most important thing is to get the roster up to 85 scholarship players. Non-qualifiers don't help you do that. We have reasonable talent at the skill positions right now (except a fast return man would be nice). We need a solid class heavy on OLs and DLs (and a few other needs) this year.
 
#29
#29
I don't think there is ever a strategy to go after 3* players and coach them up. I think everybody's strategy is to recruit the best you can get and coach them the best you can. The character issues come up as OK, here's somebody that everybody else has backed off of but we need to fill that position. What do we do? that's about it.
 
#30
#30
EZE said:
I couldn't disagree more. The most important thing is to get the roster up to 85 scholarship players. Non-qualifiers don't help you do that. We have reasonable talent at the skill positions right now (except a fast return man would be nice). We need a solid class heavy on OLs and DLs (and a few other needs) this year.
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we could be at 85 today if Dooley wanted to go that route. The goal is to get a large part of your roster full of players who can play at the level you need them to.
 
#31
#31
utvolpj said:
we could be at 85 today if Dooley wanted to go that route. The goal is to get a large part of your roster full of players who can play at the level you need them to.
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This is what I'm saying. Yes we need to be at 85, but that 85 has to be filled with guys that can go toe to toe with UF and Bama. I'm not saying that we should or even can recruit at Bama or UF's rate right now, but we should at least recruit better than Ole Miss. And most people know that a team full of 3 stars won't win in the SEC otherwise teams like Mississippi State would win the conference once a while.
 
#32
#32
IndianVol said:
Yes some intelligent 3 stars can be coached up but a lot can't be. If recruiting 3 stars and coaching them up was a legit way of getting back to the top I would support it, but its been proven that this strategy doesn't work. If it did work teams like Mississippi State, Ole Miss and Arkansas would have a lot more success historically. The proven way of winning championships is to recruit 4 and 5 star players and coach them up.
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You could counter with starting with 3 stars and winning sets you up to recruit 4 and 5 star players. We can debate this all day but at the end of the day you have to take the players you can land. Are there coaches who would recruit better than Dooley? Probably but I don't think we were gonna land an elite class star wise no matter who the coach was this year. Too much instability in the program, too many off the field issues, too much going on with the NCAA scrutiny surrounding the program. We're likely looking at a minimum a three year plan to being relevant in the SEC again.
 
#33
#33
If you go back the last ten years, attrition has killed this program. Aside from Eric Berry and perhaps a few others, five star players have usually not panned out or not lasted. And it is the loss of the 4* and 5* players like Richardson, Douglas, Brown, etc., that have Tennessee where it is.

I see the coaching staff as accepting that 5* aren't coming this year and so the goal is to get 27 guys who can qualify and ten to fifteen of which can play. If that happens and the depth is improved, the team will improve. That works as evidenced by the fact that Alabama is the #1 team in the country with a 3* quarterback according to Rivals and 4* returning Heisman winner.
 
#34
#34
IndianVol said:
Yes I agree with you that in the position UT is in right now it is hard to get the elite kids unless they have character issues. Dooley might be doing the smart thing by recruiting the way he is,but if he continues to recruit this way for more than one recruiting season he will most like be just a transition coach for UT. UT will keep him for 2 or 3 seasons to get the numbers back up then hire a more proven coach. It might be a bad idea but I think Dooley needs to take a few risks on highly ranked kids with character issues and try coach them up(keep them out of trouble), this is the best way for him to get the talent level up quickly and start winning sooner. The sooner he wins the more likely it is that he will keep this job for the long term. Also Florida takes a lot of risks on guys with character issues and its working out for them. Another thing is that even a lot of the 3 stars have character issues, so its never a given that some one will have good character until they get to campus.
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The position you advocate is the strategy that Kiffin and Orgeron utilized. It probably will not result in even an SEC championship considering who you're going to have to beat to get there and it probably will end with the program under crippling NCAA sanctions from which it will take a decade or more to recover. I suppose that if you are living on borrowed time and don't give a damn about the state of the program once you're gone, then I can see why this would seem like a good strategy. Otherwise, it's a recipie for long term disaster that will result in a generation or two of Tennesseeans growing up thinking that the Vols are a second rate program. This is a ground up rebuilding project and not a matter of finding one gunslinger QB and a couple of great atheltes for him to pitch it to. It's going to take several years and possibly multiple head coaches.
 
#35
#35
Fijivol72 said:
this staff has shown me nothing on the recruiting front, people keep saying how great they did last year and I keep telling people that Kiffin made the class because of EE's who could not transfer if they wanted to. Can't coach, can't recruit, welcome to the WAC and I am not backing off of this position so bring it on all you Dooley lovers.
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#36
#36
DaddyChad said:
You could counter with starting with 3 stars and winning sets you up to recruit 4 and 5 star players. We can debate this all day but at the end of the day you have to take the players you can land. Are there coaches who would recruit better than Dooley? Probably but I don't think we were gonna land an elite class star wise no matter who the coach was this year. Too much instability in the program, too many off the field issues, too much going on with the NCAA scrutiny surrounding the program. We're likely looking at a minimum a three year plan to being relevant in the SEC again.
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This is what I'm hoping will happen. Once we can win 8 or 9 games Dooley will start landing a bunch of 4 stars, but I still have my doubts.
 
#37
#37
VolunteerHillbilly said:
The position you advocate is the strategy that Kiffin and Orgeron utilized. It probably will not result in even an SEC championship considering who you're going to have to beat to get there and it probably will end with the program under crippling NCAA sanctions from which it will take a decade or more to recover. I suppose that if you are living on borrowed time and don't give a damn about the state of the program once you're gone, then I can see why this would seem like a good strategy. Otherwise, it's a recipie for long term disaster that will result in a generation or two of Tennesseeans growing up thinking that the Vols are a second rate program. This is a ground up rebuilding project and not a matter of finding one gunslinger QB and a couple of great atheltes for him to pitch it to. It's going to take several years and possibly multiple head coaches.
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When I said taking some risks on highly ranked guys with character issues, I did not advocate breaking NCAA rules. Again 3 stars might also have character issues we just don't know until they're on campus.
 
#38
#38
We need bodies right now. Keep building next year's class with 3 & 4 star guys, the 5 star guys will come later.
 
#39
#39
When you can figure out how to tell which guys with character issues will take money from agents, cheat academically, or otherwise violate NCAA rules and which ones will not you should write a book. It will be a guaranteed must read. Until then, becasue of what Pearl and Kiffin's outfit have done coupled with what Hamilton didn't do the Vols are on thin ice and cannot afford violations.
 
#40
#40
VolunteerHillbilly said:
When you can figure out how to tell which guys with character issues will take money from agents, cheat academically, or otherwise violate NCAA rules and which ones will not you should write a book. It will be a guaranteed must read. Until then, becasue of what Pearl and Kiffin's outfit have done coupled with what Hamilton didn't do the Vols are on thin ice and cannot afford violations.
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Thats exactly what I'm saying you just don't know which guys are character risks. Even the 3 stars we have right now can be character risks, so why not take some of those risks on highly ranked guys. Recruiting highly ranked does not have to include breaking NCAA rules. And 3 star guys can just as easily as 4 and 5 star guys take money from agents, cheat academically, or break other rules.
 
#41
#41
IndianVol said:
This is what I'm hoping will happen. Once we can win 8 or 9 games Dooley will start landing a bunch of 4 stars, but I still have my doubts.
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Although 8 or 9 wins would be nice, we don't have to get to that level just yet. Kiffin had recruits falling all over themselves to come to UT after a mediocre first season. We need stability and time for the staff to build relationships with the recruits that they have targeted. All the off the field nonsense and bad publicity needs to end.
 
#42
#42
DaddyChad said:
Although 8 or 9 wins would be nice, we don't have to get to that level just yet. Kiffin had recruits falling all over themselves to come to UT after a mediocre first season. We need stability and time for the staff to build relationships with the recruits that they have targeted. All the off the field nonsense and bad publicity needs to end.
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Yep & Kiffin would have had us on probation in 2 years :)
 
#43
#43
DaddyChad said:
Although 8 or 9 wins would be nice, we don't have to get to that level just yet. Kiffin had recruits falling all over themselves to come to UT after a mediocre first season. We need stability and time for the staff to build relationships with the recruits that they have targeted. All the off the field nonsense and bad publicity needs to end.
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Agreed thats why I'm willing to give Dooley 3 years to prove himself both on the field and as a recruiter.
 
#44
#44
jmoore_21 said:
Yep & Kiffin would have had us on probation in 2 years :)
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Most likely. I despise Kiffin but he was one helluva recruiter. Even when he was here, I wanted the guy to just shut up at times. The NCAA will let you bend the rules like Tressell does at OSU but they don't like you rubbing it in their faces like Kiffin seemed to enjoy doing.
 
#45
#45
IndianVol said:
Agreed thats why I'm willing to give Dooley 3 years to prove himself both on the field and as a recruiter.
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Dooley's contract is structured to give him at least three years to turn things around. No matter what happens in his time here I cannot imagine him leaving this program in worse shape than he found it in. Throw out recruiting rankings in the past if you want but we've had a terrible run of attrition due to off the field mistakes, and failures at evaluation and player development.
 
#46
#46
IndianVol said:
Thats exactly what I'm saying you just don't know which guys are character risks. Even the 3 stars we have right now can be character risks, so why not take some of those risks on highly ranked guys. Recruiting highly ranked does not have to include breaking NCAA rules. And 3 star guys can just as easily as 4 and 5 star guys take money from agents, cheat academically, or break other rules.
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This is getting circular. In the overall pool of prospects there is going to be a general risk of signing a violator. You limit that risk by not signing people with character issues. I seriously doubt that this staff is going after a bunch of 2-3* prospects with charcater issues. Hence, going after higher rated prospects who are known to have issues is going to increase the risk. Whether or not the risk is worth it is a different subject. I don't think it is but I can see where others who are willing to risk the future of the program over the possibility of some immediate success would disagree.
 
#47
#47
IndianVol said:
This is what I'm saying. Yes we need to be at 85, but that 85 has to be filled with guys that can go toe to toe with UF and Bama. I'm not saying that we should or even can recruit at Bama or UF's rate right now, but we should at least recruit better than Ole Miss. And most people know that a team full of 3 stars won't win in the SEC otherwise teams like Mississippi State would win the conference once a while.
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3 and 4* players can play at an SEC level. It is going to have to be a progressive approach. You try to do a little bit better every year.

Right now, Tennessee has the 25th rated class at scout.com. If they can get that into the Top-20 with guys who are likely to qualify (and meet needs), it would be a good place to start.

If you think Tennessee can just go pick from the litter, you are sadly mistaken--unless we employ the dubious recruiting practices of the previous staff. One step at a time....
 
#48
#48
EZE said:
3 and 4* players can play at an SEC level. It is going to have to be a progressive approach. You try to do a little bit better every year.

Right now, Tennessee has the 25th rated class at scout.com. If they can get that into the Top-20 with guys who are likely to qualify (and meet needs), it would be a good place to start.

If you think Tennessee can just go pick from the litter, you are sadly mistaken--unless we employ the dubious recruiting practices of the previous staff. One step at a time....
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A team can compete with 3 and 4 stars no one will argue that but you have to have a good number of 4 stars. Recruiting classes with a bunch of 3 stars a handful of 4 stars won't get it done.
 
#49
#49
No doubt that we need more speed immediately. I'm willing to wait until February to see what happens, but I'd be lying if I said I was encouraged by where we stand right now.
 
#50
#50
IndianVol said:
A team can compete with 3 and 4 stars no one will argue that but you have to have a good number of 4 stars. Recruiting classes with a bunch of 3 stars a handful of 4 stars won't get it done.
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you're exactly right, and if in two or three years are recruiting class looks like it does, i will be pretty disappointed... but right now we have to have guys that will be key players in future years and provide quality depth and skill... to expect us to recruit at an elite level right now, given the past three years, is silly... right now we are recruiting a class that may not get us back to the level of Bama and UF, but can get us back to the level of USCjr, Ark, and AU... btw, if our goal was to exclusively recruit three stars, are class could have been done a month ago
 
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