That's racist!

[RikidyBones]

Actually the Iliad was to show how much reverence the Ancient Greeks had for black Africans. Because in the Illiad, Zeus and the other Gods would regularly travel to Ethiopia (aka Sub-Saharan Africa) to feast. I cited it because its the earliest recorded mention of black people by the Ancient Greeks. The Iliad was written in the 8th century BC by the way.

For the record I never said Cleopatra was definitively black. I said it was possible she was at least partially black. Her father was Greek but her mother is unknown. In Ancient times when men conquered other lands they generally didn't bring their women with them. They generally married into the local populations. The Greeks were fond of Africans so it's very likely Cleopatra's mom was a native Egyptian. And since every ancient source from that time said the Ancient Egyptians were black, it's very likely Cleopatra was half black. The actress playing Cleopatra in this Netflix documentary is herself half-black so I argued that she was actually a historically accurate representation of the real Cleopatra.

I understand you want it to be true because you associate it your worth for some odd reason but it's just not true. DNA analysis would have reflected it. 85 has already provided that information

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

I’m certainly not interested in your linguistic or migratory studies. Not when there is actual DNA evidence using new techniques.

And there is DNA evidence using new and better techniques.

And they all point to the same place - Israel & Jordan.

And lololol with your continued harping on the Iliad, Greek mythology, and now the Bible. Get serious.

Please link me to this DNA study. Because here's the thing with DNA studies. It matters where these mummies came from because Upper and Lower Egypt have always had differing populations. Upper Egypt (which was located in the south near the border with Sudan) even during the times of the Ancient Greeks was considered more black than Lower Egypt (which was located near the Mediterranean delta). The problem for guys like you who are pushing the narrative of a non-black Ancient Egypt is that by the UNANIMOUS testimony of every scholar ancient or modern on the origins of Ancient Egyptian civilization point to the south. It was in Upper Egypt that Ancient Egyptian civilization as we know it originated and it was also in Upper Egypt that the dynastic pharaohs came from.

So please give me this study you are touting. Because all the studies I've seen in the past that have tried to use genetics to place Ancient Egyptian outside of Africa have always cherry picked mummies from regions and times disconnected with dynastic Egyptian rule.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

But like most royalty, bastards would not have been recognized.

This is untrue. In many parts of Africa and the Middle East (the region in question here), bastards have rights to ascension and inheritance equivalent to non-bastard children. The key is inheritance goes through the father. So as long as your father is the one with the title then it doesn't matter who your mother is.

For example Prince Bandar of Saudi Arabia (who was famous for being in the White House with George W. Bush on the night of 9/11) was born to an Ethiopian mother who was a servant of his father. The fact he was a bastard child of an Ethiopian servant didn't take away from him being able to become a Saudi prince because in Middle Eastern culture you have full inheritance rights regardless of who your mother is.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

I understand you want it to be true because you associate it your worth for some odd reason but it's just not true. DNA analysis would have reflected it. 85 has already provided that information

Can you please give me a link to this study? I keep hearing about it but I've yet to actually see the link. I prefer to read it for myself. Then we can discuss it since yall think it's some killer argument on your behalf.

 

[Weezer]

This is untrue. In many parts of Africa and the Middle East (the region in question here), bastards have rights to ascension and inheritance equivalent to non-bastard children. The key is inheritance goes through the father. So as long as your father is the one with the title then it doesn't matter who your mother is.

For example Prince Bandar of Saudi Arabia (who was famous for being in the White House with George W. Bush on the night of 9/11) was born to an Ethiopian mother who was a servant of his father. The fact he was a bastard child of an Ethiopian servant didn't take away from him being able to become a Saudi prince because in Middle Eastern culture you have full inheritance rights regardless of who your mother is.

You're comparing the present with the past. Read more about the past.

 

[ETV]

Another white supremacist attack on a politician.

Staff Members Attacked With Bat at Congressman’s Virginia Office

 

[85SugarVol]

Please link me to this DNA study. Because here's the thing with DNA studies. It matters where these mummies came from because Upper and Lower Egypt have always had differing populations. Upper Egypt (which was located in the south near the border with Sudan) even during the times of the Ancient Greeks was considered more black than Lower Egypt (which was located near the Mediterranean delta). The problem for guys like you who are pushing the narrative of a non-black Ancient Egypt is that by the UNANIMOUS testimony of every scholar ancient or modern on the origins of Ancient Egyptian civilization point to the south. It was in Upper Egypt that Ancient Egyptian civilization as we know it originated and it was also in Upper Egypt that the dynastic pharaohs came from.

So please give me this study you are touting. Because all the studies I've seen in the past that have tried to use genetics to place Ancient Egyptian outside of Africa have always cherry picked mummies from regions and times disconnected with dynastic Egyptian rule.

This is the most detailed report (posted to Nature) you’ll find on the base study of the 80+ mummies from New Kingdom thru Roman rule -
Ancient Egyptian mummy genomes suggest an increase of Sub-Saharan African ancestry in post-Roman periods | Nature Communications

Here’s an update from 2021 with DNA Phenotypic reconstruction of the genetic markers (tech you didn’t know existed) -

3 Egyptian mummy faces revealed in stunning reconstruction

Parabon Nanolabs - the outfit that’s been cracking cold cases left and right with “unknown DNA” using Phenotypic reconstruction



Here’s other outfits touting the new study and advanced techniques that point to? Israel & Jordan

CNN -
https://www.cnn.com/2017/06/22/health/ancient-egypt-mummy-dna-genome-heritage/index.html

BigThink -
Black or white? Ancient Egyptian race mystery now solved

Smithsonian -
3-D Reconstruction Reveals the Faces of Three Ancient Egyptian Mummies | Smart News| Smithsonian Magazine

Washington Post -
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ient-egyptian-mummies-reveals-their-ancestry/

CNET-
If mummies had faces: Scientists use DNA to see how three ancient Egyptians looked

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

You're comparing the present with the past. Read more about the past.

No this was true of the past as well in the Middle East and Africa. Remember these regions practiced polygamy not only now but in the past. So it was culturally acceptable for a man to have children with multiple women and the culture showed no favoritism to the children of one woman over another.

 

[85SugarVol]

@Dobbs 4 Heisman
and here’s the problem with the “king tut” analysis - old technology subject to contamination bias

The sequencing success, reported this week in Nature Communications, "finally proves to everyone that there's DNA preserved in ancient Egyptian mummies," says Albert Zink, a biological anthropologist at the Institute for Mummy Studies in Bolzano, Italy. He participated in a 2010 study that identified DNA sequences from 16 ancient Egyptian royal mummies, including Tutankhamun. But that study used polymerase chain reaction, a method that efficiently finds and extracts targeted DNA fragments but cannot always reliably distinguish between ancient DNA and modern contamination.

The new study, led by Johannes Krause, a geneticist at the Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History in Jena, Germany, used next-generation sequencing methods to read stretches of any DNA present in a sample and fish out those that resembled human DNA. The complete reads allowed the team to spot tell-tale damage patterns associated only with ancient DNA. That makes the new analysis much more reliable, says Hannes Schroeder, an ancient DNA researcher at the University of Copenhagen. "It succeeds where previous studies on Egyptian mummies have failed or fallen short."

Science -
Science | AAAS

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

This is the most detailed report (posted to Nature) you’ll find on the base study of the 80+ mummies from New Kingdom thru Roman rule -
Ancient Egyptian mummy genomes suggest an increase of Sub-Saharan African ancestry in post-Roman periods | Nature Communications

Here’s an update from 2021 with DNA Phenotypic reconstruction of the genetic markers (tech you didn’t know existed) -

3 Egyptian mummy faces revealed in stunning reconstruction

Parabon Nanolabs - the outfit that’s been cracking cold cases left and right with “unknown DNA” using Phenotypic reconstruction

View attachment 551626

Here’s other outfits touting the new study and advanced techniques that point to? Israel & Jordan

CNN -
https://www.cnn.com/2017/06/22/health/ancient-egypt-mummy-dna-genome-heritage/index.html

BigThink -
Black or white? Ancient Egyptian race mystery now solved

Smithsonian -
3-D Reconstruction Reveals the Faces of Three Ancient Egyptian Mummies | Smart News| Smithsonian Magazine

Washington Post -
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ient-egyptian-mummies-reveals-their-ancestry/

CNET-
If mummies had faces: Scientists use DNA to see how three ancient Egyptians looked

The fact mainstream media touts an scientific paper is irrelevant. The thing that matters is the paper. And that 2017 paper you posted is filled with problems that even the authors themselves recognized.

First look at where in Egypt they got their samples from:




That's Lower Egypt near the Delta. At the time the study claims these samples were taken the Ancient Egyptians had already moved the capital city down south to Thebes aka Luxor. I told you already in this thread that Lower Egypt had a more mixed population than Upper Egypt thanks to an influx in foreigners after the rise of Ancient Egypt into a superpower. The authors themselves admitted that if they took samples from Upper Egypt (where the Pharoahs and origins of Ancient Egyptian civilization lay) the results could have been different. I don't know how many times I have to repeat myself but the Pharoahs came from Upper Egypt. You see that city at the bottom called Luxor. In ancient times it was named Thebes and it was the capital of Ancient Egypt for the Middle and New Kingdom. See here: Thebes, Egypt - Wikipedia

You cited a study conducted by dishonest scholars. And this is why I caution against simply reading a headline from a DNA article and taking it as gospel. These scholars picked mummies from regions that everyone knows included non-native Egyptians at the time in question and then claim these DNA results as being representative of Ancient Egypt as a whole and more importantly totally ignore the fact the ruling class didn't come from that region in the north but rather came from the south.

The DNA article I cited that was published just 4 years earlier in 2013 found different results because it studied mummies from the royalty that lived in Upper Egypt (an area more to the south free of foreign influence from the Middle East). These mummies showed the closest genetic affinity to Sub-Saharan Africans from the Great Lakes Region.

 

[85SugarVol]

The fact mainstream media touts an scientific paper is irrelevant. The thing that matters is the paper. And that 2017 paper you posted is filled with problems that even the authors themselves recognized.

First look at where in Egypt they got their samples from:

View attachment 551633


That's Lower Egypt near the Delta. At the time the study claims these samples were taken the Ancient Egyptians had already moved the capital city down south to Thebes aka Luxor. I told you already in this thread that Lower Egypt had a more mixed population than Upper Egypt thanks to an influx in foreigners after the rise of Ancient Egypt into a superpower. The authors themselves admitted that if they took samples from Upper Egypt (where the Pharoahs and origins of Ancient Egyptian civilization lay) the results could have been different. I don't know how many times I have to repeat myself but the Pharoahs came from Upper Egypt. You see that city at the bottom called Luxor. In ancient times it was named Thebes and it was the capital of Ancient Egypt for the Middle and New Kingdom. See here: Thebes, Egypt - Wikipedia

You cited a study conducted by dishonest scholars. And this is why I caution against simply reading a headline from a DNA article and taking it as gospel. These scholars picked mummies from regions that everyone knows included non-native Egyptians at the time in question and then claim these DNA results as being representative of Ancient Egypt as a whole and more importantly totally ignore the fact the ruling class didn't come from that region in the north but rather came from the south.

The DNA article I cited that was published just 4 years earlier in 2013 found different results because it studied mummies from the royalty that lived in Upper Egypt (an area more to the south free of foreign influence from the Middle East). These mummies showed the closest genetic affinity to Sub-Saharan Africans from the Great Lakes Region.

“Dishonest scholars”. Says the guy posting YouTube videos.

The earlier study you posted, used older unreliable technology. The new study is more advanced, and more accurate.

I notice you skipped right over the phenotypic reconstructions?

 

[Weezer]

No this was true of the past as well in the Middle East and Africa. Remember these regions practiced polygamy not only now but in the past. So it was culturally acceptable for a man to have children with multiple women and the culture showed no favoritism to the children of one woman over another.

Is this just your opinion, or have you actually read the history? Pretty sure I know the real answer.

 

[85SugarVol]

And @Dobbs 4 Heisman

This whole argument is about Cleopatra. Remember?

Where was Cleopatra born? Alexandria.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

@Dobbs 4 Heisman
and here’s the problem with the “king tut” analysis - old technology subject to contamination bias

The sequencing success, reported this week in Nature Communications, "finally proves to everyone that there's DNA preserved in ancient Egyptian mummies," says Albert Zink, a biological anthropologist at the Institute for Mummy Studies in Bolzano, Italy. He participated in a 2010 study that identified DNA sequences from 16 ancient Egyptian royal mummies, including Tutankhamun. But that study used polymerase chain reaction, a method that efficiently finds and extracts targeted DNA fragments but cannot always reliably distinguish between ancient DNA and modern contamination.

The new study, led by Johannes Krause, a geneticist at the Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History in Jena, Germany, used next-generation sequencing methods to read stretches of any DNA present in a sample and fish out those that resembled human DNA. The complete reads allowed the team to spot tell-tale damage patterns associated only with ancient DNA. That makes the new analysis much more reliable, says Hannes Schroeder, an ancient DNA researcher at the University of Copenhagen. "It succeeds where previous studies on Egyptian mummies have failed or fallen short."

Science -
Science | AAAS

Unless the new method was used on the same mummies and found different results your point is irrelevant. I've made the point many times already that when and where you get the samples matters. Ancient Egypt is a huge place and different areas had different populations. Even today if you travel through Egypt you'll see the Egyptians in Southern Egypt look different than those in Northern Egypt.

The problem for yall is Ancient Egyptian civilization originated in the south and then spread north. Also the ruling class and royalty predominantly came from the south as well. This is why WHERE you get the samples matters. I used the analogy earlier but you can't go to a cemetery in Chinatown in Los Angeles in the year 2023 and then say the founding fathers of the United States were more Asian than European. It's nonsensical. But it's these sort of arguments the flawed articles yall are posting are making. They take samples from Northern Egypt at a time when there were lots of foreigners living there and use that to paint a picture about Ancient Egypt as a whole and by extension the ruling class.

My argument is simple. Ancient Egyptian civilization and culture was originated by Black Africans and the ruling class of Ancient Egypt from its beginning through most of the dynastic era were Black Africans. Some of the later ruling class might have been non-black and some of the population in the North were non-black. But Upper Egypt (which was in the south) was black up until the Arab invasion in the 7th century AD. And unfortunately for yall that's where Ancient Egyptian civilization originated as well most of the dynastic pharaohs.

 

[85SugarVol]

Unless the new method was used on the same mummies and found different results your point is irrelevant. I've made the point many times already that when and where you get the samples matters. Ancient Egypt is a huge place and different areas had different populations. Even today if you travel through Egypt you'll see the Egyptians in Southern Egypt look different than those in Northern Egypt.

The problem for yall is Ancient Egyptian civilization originated in the south and then spread north. Also the ruling class and royalty predominantly came from the south as well. This is why WHERE you get the samples matters. I used the analogy earlier but you can't go to a cemetery in Chinatown in Los Angeles in the year 2023 and then say the founding fathers of the United States were more Asian than European. It's nonsensical. But it's these sort of arguments the flawed articles yall are posting are making. They take samples from Northern Egypt at a time when there were lots of foreigners living there and use that to paint a picture about Ancient Egypt as a whole and by extension the ruling class.

My argument is simple. Ancient Egyptian civilization and culture was originated by Black Africans and the ruling class of Ancient Egypt from its beginning through most of the dynastic era were Black Africans. Some of the later ruling class might have been non-black and some of the population in the North were non-black. But Upper Egypt (which was in the south) was black up until the Arab invasion in the 7th century AD. And unfortunately for yall that's where Ancient Egyptian civilization originated as well most of the dynastic pharaohs.

There is no viable evidence of sub-Saharan DNA until about 1300 years ago. Well after the time of Cleopatra.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

And @Dobbs 4 Heisman

This whole argument is about Cleopatra. Remember?

Where was Cleopatra born? Alexandria.

I've already said it was only POSSIBLE that Cleopatra was part Black. I never said it was a certainty. You are the one that decided to bring the racial background of all of Ancient Egypt into question when you posted that picture of an Arab woman earlier as well as posting these flawed cherry picked genetic studies.

 

[85SugarVol]

I've already said it was only POSSIBLE that Cleopatra was part Black. I never said it was a certainty. You are the one that decided to bring the racial background of all of Ancient Egypt into question when you posted that picture of an Arab woman earlier as well as posting these flawed cherry picked genetic studies.

You talk of cherry picking, but only want to look at specific when and where. Lmao.

 

[85SugarVol]

I've already said it was only POSSIBLE that Cleopatra was part Black. I never said it was a certainty. You are the one that decided to bring the racial background of all of Ancient Egypt into question when you posted that picture of an Arab woman earlier as well as posting these flawed cherry picked genetic studies.

And that post was in specific reference to?

Cleopatra.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

There is no viable evidence of sub-Saharan DNA until about 1300 years ago. Well after the time of Cleopatra.

Go back and read the article. They admitted that 20% of the samples from Egypt shared mitochondrial affinity with samples from Ethiopia. Later in the article they compared the Northern Egyptian samples to West African samples and that's when they decided to use the Sub-Saharan DNA line. Classic bait and switch by agenda driven scholars. You'll see this all the time in genetic studies. They use the term Sub-Saharan when comparing samples from Egypt to West Africa. But when they compare it samples from East Africa like Somalia and Ethiopia they won't use the term Sub-Saharan African. Last I checked the peoples of Ethiopia were located in Sub-Saharan Africa and are black. But these are the games agenda driven white scholars play.

 

[85SugarVol]

“Dishonest scholars”. Says the guy posting YouTube videos.

The earlier study you posted, used older unreliable technology. The new study is more advanced, and more accurate.

I notice you skipped right over the phenotypic reconstructions?

You gonna address the DNA phenotypic reconstructions? @Dobbs 4 Heisman

 

[85SugarVol]

But these are the games agenda driven white scholars play.

and there it is.

Anyone that publishes science I don’t like is just a racist white person.

That’s Racist!

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

“Dishonest scholars”. Says the guy posting YouTube videos.

The earlier study you posted, used older unreliable technology. The new study is more advanced, and more accurate.

I notice you skipped right over the phenotypic reconstructions?

I posted the YouTube videos because it's a more digestible form of information for most people than a scholarly article. But hey if you want me to parse scientific articles like I just did with the faulty paper you cited then I'm more than happy to. I want people to learn from our discourse so I try to give them information in the most palatable form.

With regard to improving technology, that only comes into effect if the new technology was used on the same samples and found different results. The issue I pointed out with the paper you cited was SELECTION BIAS. It doesn't matter the technology of the selection methodology is flawed. And you picked a study that only studied mummies from one region of Egypt. A region in Egypt notorious for having foreign influence. And a region which didn't have a historical connection to the foundation of Ancient Egyptian civilization.

You can keep running away from it but Ancient Egyptians civilization originated in the South. Upper Egypt was where the Pharoahs came from as well as where the culture of Ancient Egypt originated. Thus it makes no sense to only take from Northern Egypt and from individuals that aren't royalty if you are trying to make an argument about the makeup of Ancient Egyptian civilization.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

You gonna address the DNA phenotypic reconstructions? @Dobbs 4 Heisman

Are these reconstructions of samples from Upper Egypt or Lower Egypt? I'm gonna keep repeating this analogy because it applies. You can't go to Chinatown in LA, dig up skeletons from a graveyard there, then make the argument the founding fathers of America were Asian.

You posted articles that started with a fundamental flaw. They picked samples from one region of Egypt. A region notorious for having foreign influence. As well as being a region that was not close to where Ancient Egyptian culture originated as well as where most of the dynastic pharaohs came from.

Ancient Egypt called the southern part of their country Upper Egypt for a reason. They looked toward the African continent as the place where they originated. Not the north near the Mediterranean which was rife with foreign influence.

 

[85SugarVol]

I posted the YouTube videos because it's a more digestible form of information for most people than a scholarly article. But hey if you want me to parse scientific articles like I just did with the faulty paper you cited then I'm more than happy to. I want people to learn from our discourse so I try to give them information in the most palatable form.

With regard to improving technology, that only comes into effect if the new technology was used on the same samples and found different results. The issue I pointed out with the paper you cited was SELECTION BIAS. It doesn't matter the technology of the selection methodology is flawed. And you picked a study that only studied mummies from one region of Egypt. A region in Egypt notorious for having foreign influence. And a region which didn't have a historical connection to the foundation of Ancient Egyptian civilization.

You can keep running away from it but Ancient Egyptians civilization originated in the South. Upper Egypt was where the Pharoahs came from as well as where the culture of Ancient Egypt originated. Thus it makes no sense to only take from Northern Egypt and from individuals that aren't royalty if you are trying to make an argument about the makeup of Ancient Egyptian civilization.

Where was Cleopatra from?

 

[85SugarVol]

Are these reconstructions of samples from Upper Egypt or Lower Egypt? I'm gonna keep repeating this analogy because it applies. You can't go to Chinatown in LA, dig up skeletons from a graveyard there, then make the argument the founding fathers of America were Asian.

You posted articles that started with a fundamental flaw. They picked samples from one region of Egypt. A region notorious for having foreign influence. As well as being a region that was not close to where Ancient Egyptian culture originated as well as where most of the dynastic pharaohs came from.

Ancient Egypt called the southern part of their country Upper Egypt for a reason. They looked toward the African continent as the place where they originated. Not the north near the Mediterranean which was rife with foreign influence.

Where was Cleopatra from?