That's racist!

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

and there it is.

Anyone that publishes science I don’t like is just a racist white person.

That’s Racist!

If they're not agenda driven then why pick samples from an area of Egypt everyone knows has always had foreign influence and then why use samples from West Africa rather than samples from Nubia when trying to measure their Sub-Saharan Africaness?

Unlike you I'm well read on this subject so I know bs when I see it. If they were honest scholars they would have tested samples from Upper Egypt (the place everyone agrees Ancient Egyptian civilization originated in) and compared those samples to Nubian samples. You know something that would be a fair comparison. But instead they took samples from Lower Egypt (a region in the north that was not the place Ancient Egyptian civilization originated or flourished during the times in question) and they decided to compare those samples to samples from West Africa when trying to measure their affinity to Sub-Saharan Africans. If that's not agenda driven I don't know what is.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

You talk of cherry picking, but only want to look at specific when and where. Lmao.

Cleopatra is unimportant to me. I've already stated I have no idea what she was. She coulda been 100% white. I simply conjectured its possible she was part black because the Ancient Egyptians were a black civilization. You're the one who has put the blackness of Ancient Egypt into question. Which is what I've been countering this entire time.

I may not know what race Cleopatra was. But I do know the Ancient Egyptians were at their origin black Africans and for most of their dynastic period a nation ruled by black Africans.

 

[85SugarVol]

If they're not agenda driven then why pick samples from an area of Egypt everyone knows has always had foreign influence and then why use samples from West Africa rather than samples from Nubia when trying to measure their Sub-Saharan Africaness?

Unlike you I'm well read on this subject so I know bs when I see it. If they were honest scholars they would have tested samples from Upper Egypt (the place everyone agrees Ancient Egyptian civilization originated in) and compared those samples to Nubian samples. You know something that would be a fair comparison. But instead they took samples from Lower Egypt (a region in the north that was not the place Ancient Egyptian civilization originated or flourished during the times in question) and they decided to compare those samples to samples from West Africa when trying to measure their affinity to Sub-Saharan Africans. If that's not agenda driven I don't know what is.

Where is the data set of 80+ mummies from your preferred location? Where is the analysis using the advanced DNA genomic sequencing?

 

[85SugarVol]

Cleopatra is unimportant to me. I've already stated I have no idea what she was. She coulda been 100% white. I simply conjectured its possible she was part black because the Ancient Egyptians were a black civilization. You're the one who has put the blackness of Ancient Egypt into question. Which is what I've been countering this entire time.

I may not know what race Cleopatra was. But I do know the Ancient Egyptians were at their origin black Africans and for most of their dynastic period a nation ruled by black Africans.

The only posts I have made are in reference to Cleopatra.

Cleopatra of Alexandria.

You are the one that has made this about more than her. Not me.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

Where is the data set of 80+ mummies from your preferred location? Where is the analysis using the advanced DNA genomic sequencing?

Here:
https://thednatests.com/dnatribes-digest-2012-01-01.pdf

https://thednatests.com/dnatribes-digest-2013-02-01.pdf

Link is to PDF documents of genetic tests on the mummies of actual Pharoahs who ruled Egypt not random people from a site far north of the place every scholar agrees Ancient Egyptian civilization originated.

Here's the summary:

The January 2012 issue of DNA Tribes® Digest included autosomal STR analysis for King Tutankhamun and several other 18th Dynasty (Amarna Period) mummies. DNA results identified alleles that today are most frequent in Sub-Saharan Africa and found in Middle Eastern populations at lower
frequencies. This suggests a Sub-Saharan African genetic component for the Amarna Period royal family, but does not exclude the possibility of additional ancestral components for those ancient individuals (such as West Asian or Mediterranean components that are found in Egypt today).


To expand on those results, this month’s article includes geographical analysis of autosomal STR profiles from a later pharaonic family of the 20th Dynasty of ancient Egypt: Ramesses III and another man (possibly his son Pentawer). Ramesses III reigned between 1186 – 1155 BCE, during the transition from the Late Bronze Age to the Early Iron Age.

Long story short Pharaoh Ramses IIII had the same genetic affinity to Sub-Saharan Africans as King Tut and the rest of the 18th dynasty Pharoahs.

The Pharoahs were black. Some random Northern Egyptians (which your study focused on) might have been Middle Eastern. I think the genetics of the Pharoahs are more significant than some random nobodies.

 

[85SugarVol]

Here:
https://thednatests.com/dnatribes-digest-2012-01-01.pdf

https://thednatests.com/dnatribes-digest-2013-02-01.pdf

Link is to PDF documents of genetic tests on the mummies of actual Pharoahs who ruled Egypt not random people from a site far north of the place every scholar agrees Ancient Egyptian civilization originated.

Here's the summary:



Long story short Pharaoh Ramses IIII had the same genetic affinity to Sub-Saharan Africans as King Tut and the rest of the 18th dynasty Pharoahs.

The Pharoahs were black. Some random Northern Egyptians (which your study focused on) might have been Middle Eastern. I think the genetics of the Pharoahs are more significant than some random nobodies.

That’s the old study using the old technology. Even those that were part of that study question it now.

Where is the 80+ sample using the new genomic techniques?

 

[KB5252]

Cleopatra is unimportant to me. I've already stated I have no idea what she was. She coulda been 100% white. I simply conjectured its possible she was part black because the Ancient Egyptians were a black civilization. You're the one who has put the blackness of Ancient Egypt into question. Which is what I've been countering this entire time.

I may not know what race Cleopatra was. But I do know the Ancient Egyptians were at their origin black Africans and for most of their dynastic period a nation ruled by black Africans.

I'm just stepping into this but from my understanding to say they were black would ultimately depend on how far back (ancient) you want to go. The earliest pyramids we're certainly built in the area known as Kush by Nubians who were the precursor to Egyptians.

My understanding is Egyptians were a mixed society, the further south on the Nile you went Egyptians were certainly black. At one point those same Kushites or Nubians we're at war with Egyptians. The areas around Thebes were likely a mix of cultures and customs. The Nubian blood was certainly there but to call Egypt a "black" society is no more correct that proclaiming any of the movies made in the 50's 60's or 70's an accurate representation of Egyptian complection.

 

[RikidyBones]

Nb4 D4H argues that Ragnar was black, as were the Vikings.

 

[TNVOLNAVY]

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

That’s the old study using the old technology. Even those that were part of that study question it now.

Where is the 80+ sample using the new genomic techniques?

Unless you have proof of these "new techniques" contradicted this study your argument is null and void. Technology always improves but it doesn't render old results invalid simply because a new technique exists. You have to provide me with a study saying these new techniques contradicted this exact study.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

I'm just stepping into this but from my understanding to say they were black would ultimately depend on how far back (ancient) you want to go. The earliest pyramids we're certainly built in the area known as Kush by Nubians who were the precursor to Egyptians.

My understanding is Egyptians were a mixed society, the further south on the Nile you went Egyptians were certainly black. At one point those same Kushites or Nubians we're at war with Egyptians. The areas around Thebes were likely a mix of cultures and customs. The Nubian blood was certainly there but to call Egypt a "black" society is no more correct that proclaiming any of the movies made in the 50's 60's or 70's an accurate representation of Egyptian complection.

America is a mixed nation but all but one of our Presidents was white and the Nation was founded by white men from England. I have never denied Ancient Egypt was a mixed society especially after its rise to power. Just as America became more mixed as we became a global superpower and people from other parts of the world flocked to this country. However, the foundation of this country has always been white and the ruling class have been white people.

All the evidence we have paints a similar story with regard to Ancient Egypt. The civilization that became Ancient Egypt originated in the south near the border with Nubia. The same cultural practices that became popular in Ancient Egypt were most readily practiced in Nubia. Almost all of the Pharoahs from the dynastic period of Egyptian rule came from Upper Egypt in the south. And for most of its history, the capital of Ancient Egypt was Thebes (a city in the south).

Ancient Egypt was a quintessentially black African civilization with its roots in black Africa. As it became a global superpower the empire spread northwards to Lower Egypt and it was in northern Egypt where you saw the native black Egyptians mix with non-black foreigners. No different than how America was a white civilization that became more mixed as it became a global superpower. Despite this admixture, the ruling class in America has stayed white and similarly in Ancient Egypt the ruling class stayed black for most of its history.

 

[KB5252]

America is a mixed nation but all but one of our Presidents was white and the Nation was founded by white men from England. I have never denied Ancient Egypt was a mixed society especially after its rise to power. Just as America became more mixed as we became a global superpower and people from other parts of the world flocked to this country. However, the foundation of this country has always been white and the ruling class have been white people.

All the evidence we have paints a similar story with regard to Ancient Egypt. The civilization that became Ancient Egypt originated in the south near the border with Nubia. The same cultural practices that became popular in Ancient Egypt were most readily practiced in Nubia. Almost all of the Pharoahs from the dynastic period of Egyptian rule came from Upper Egypt in the south. And for most of its history, the capital of Ancient Egypt was Thebes (a city in the south).

Ancient Egypt was a quintessentially black African civilization with its roots in black Africa. As it became a global superpower the empire spread northwards to Lower Egypt and it was in northern Egypt where you saw the native black Egyptians mix with non-black foreigners. No different than how America was a white civilization that became more mixed as it became a global superpower. Despite this admixture, the ruling class in America has stayed white and similarly in Ancient Egypt the ruling class stayed black for most of its history.

The ancient Nubians and Egyptians are two separate people's who share common ancestry. But Egyptians, the civilization that prospered in later periods were not of the same complection societal practices as the Nubians. There is pictographic and written evidence of this on temples and palaces commemorating war etc in what is considered middle dynasties. They became great and advanced because of the mixing of culture and ideas/knowledge from the east and island nations from the north and coastal traders in North Africa.

That area was always a choke point, not sure you could call them Black Africans anymore than you could the Bedoine people whom they are also very closely related to. They are by accounts I've seen a combination of the two mixed with other peoples in close proximity at the time.

 

[85SugarVol]

Unless you have proof of these "new techniques" contradicted this study your argument is null and void. Technology always improves but it doesn't render old results invalid simply because a new technique exists. You have to provide me with a study saying these new techniques contradicted this exact study.

Lol. I don’t have to do anything.

You’re claiming that an analysis of 80+ mummified remains, ranging from 1400 BC to 400 BC, is invalid because you don’t like where the mummies came from.

I’m simply saying show me the analysis of 80+ mummies across 2000 years from the area you would prefer.

And the technology does matter - that older technology is unreliable in comparison to the new.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

The ancient Nubians and Egyptians are two separate people's who share common ancestry. But Egyptians, the civilization that prospered in later periods were not of the same complection societal practices as the Nubians. There is pictographic and written evidence of this on temples and palaces commemorating war etc in what is considered middle dynasties. They became great and advanced because of the mixing of culture and ideas/knowledge from the east and island nations from the north and coastal traders in North Africa.

That area was always a choke point, not sure you could call them Black Africans anymore than you could the Bedoine people whom they are also very closely related to. They are by accounts I've seen a combination of the two mixed with other peoples in close proximity at the time.

You ever seen people from Sudan and South Sudan? Both are black. South Sudanese just happen to be darker and speak Nilotic languages while the North Sudanese speak Afro-Asiatic languages and have some lighter skin individuals due to admixture with non-African peoples. That's basically how Ancient Egypt and Nubia were. The Egyptians were an Afro-Asiatic speaking black population with some admixture with outside groups resulting in some lighter skin individuals while the Nubians were a Nilotic speaking black population with less non-African admixture given their more southern location.

It's funny how when it comes to Ancient Egypt yall wanna parse how black they were but have no issue saying Will Smith or Muhammad Ali are black when they are both extremely light skin.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

Lol. I don’t have to do anything.

You’re claiming that an analysis of 80+ mummified remains, ranging from 1400 BC to 400 BC, is invalid because you don’t like where the mummies came from.

I’m simply saying show me the analysis of 80+ mummies across 2000 years from the area you would prefer.

And the technology does matter - that older technology is unreliable in comparison to the new.

I cited DNA tests of Pharaohs like King Tut and Ramses III as well as members of their royal family while you posted a bunch of random no name people from a part of Ancient Egypt which everyone knows had foreign influence.

I would argue the DNA of royalty tells us more about the nature of Ancient Egyptian civilization than a bunch of random people from the North of the country which was never the bedrock of Ancient Egypt. I don't know how many times I have to repeat myself but Ancient Egyptian civilization originated in Upper Egypt (which was located in the south of the country near the border with Nubia).

 

[85SugarVol]

I cited DNA tests of Pharaohs like King Tut and Ramses III as well as members of their royal family while you posted a bunch of random no name people from a part of Ancient Egypt which everyone knows had foreign influence.

I would argue the DNA of royalty tells us more about the nature of Ancient Egyptian civilization than a bunch of random people from the North of the country which was never the bedrock of Ancient Egypt. I don't know how many times I have to repeat myself but Ancient Egyptian civilization originated in Upper Egypt (which was located in the south of the country near the border with Nubia).

That study (using old, outdated technology) was what, 14 mummies? Is that correct? I saw that in one of your links.
And those mummies of tut and ramses iii cover what? Roughly 1350-1150 BC?

2 studies -

80+ mummies, 2000 year spread, new technology
~14 mummies, 200 year spread, old technology

Is that right? Lol

 

[85SugarVol]

Unless you have proof of these "new techniques" contradicted this study your argument is null and void. Technology always improves but it doesn't render old results invalid simply because a new technique exists. You have to provide me with a study saying these new techniques contradicted this exact study.

“The recent genetic analysis of King Tutankhamun’s family10 is one of the latest controversial studies that gave rise to this extensive scholarly debate11. New data obtained with high-throughput sequencing methods have the potential to overcome the methodological and contamination issues surrounding the PCR method and could help settle the debate surrounding ancient Egyptian DNA preservation8. However, the first high-throughput sequences obtained from ancient Egyptian mummies12 were not supported by rigorous authenticity and contamination tests.”

It’s no good. The guys that were part of the study say so themselves.

“Previous DNA analysis of mummies has been treated with a necessary dose of skepticism, explains professor Johannes Krause of the Max Planck Institute.”

“Krause describes the far-reaching data set gained from looking at mitochondrial genomes: "This is not just the DNA of one person. It's the DNA of the parents, grandparents, grandparents' parents, grand-grand-grandparents' parents and so forth.”

https://www.cnn.com/2017/06/22/health/ancient-egypt-mummy-dna-genome-heritage/index.html

 

[KB5252]

You ever seen people from Sudan and South Sudan? Both are black. South Sudanese just happen to be darker and speak Nilotic languages while the North Sudanese speak Afro-Asiatic languages and have some lighter skin individuals due to admixture with non-African peoples. That's basically how Ancient Egypt and Nubia were. The Egyptians were an Afro-Asiatic speaking black population with some admixture with outside groups resulting in some lighter skin individuals while the Nubians were a Nilotic speaking black population with less non-African admixture given their more southern location.

It's funny how when it comes to Ancient Egypt yall wanna parse how black they were but have no issue saying Will Smith or Muhammad Ali are black when they are both extremely light skin.

I don't care about their skin tone. But my understanding from the DNA record is they were likely equal parts Bedouin and African peoples.

It's funny you bring that up, because from my experience, typically the ones most obsessed over skin tone and perceived degrees of "blackness" are other people of color.

What you've stated is pretty much what I've said, that southern Nile people, the precursors and developers of the pyramid were darker skinned while those in the middle to northern regions were lighter skinned people with heavy Bedouin/Arab influence, along with others during the last third/quarter of their dynasties. Culturally and ethnically different in significant ways from their "Black" contemporaries and ancestors.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

That study (using old, outdated technology) was what, 14 mummies? Is that correct? I saw that in one of your links.
And those mummies of tut and ramses iii cover what? Roughly 1350-1150 BC?

2 studies -

80+ mummies, 2000 year spread, new technology
~14 mummies, 200 year spread, old technology

Is that right? Lol

Those 14 mummies I cited were royalty. Some of the most famous Pharoahs in history like King Tut while your mummies were nobodies from the north of the country which was known to have foreign blood at the time those individuals lived.

The study you cited is the equivalent of someone going to a cemetery in Harlem and saying because most of the remains there have African DNA that the United States was a black nation. While the study I cited is the equivalent of testing the DNA of a dozen US Presidents and coming to the conclusion that because all the US Presidents were white that the United States is a mostly white country.

See how my study makes more sense than the one you cited.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

“The recent genetic analysis of King Tutankhamun’s family10 is one of the latest controversial studies that gave rise to this extensive scholarly debate11. New data obtained with high-throughput sequencing methods have the potential to overcome the methodological and contamination issues surrounding the PCR method and could help settle the debate surrounding ancient Egyptian DNA preservation8. However, the first high-throughput sequences obtained from ancient Egyptian mummies12 were not supported by rigorous authenticity and contamination tests.”

It’s no good. The guys that were part of the study say so themselves.

“Previous DNA analysis of mummies has been treated with a necessary dose of skepticism, explains professor Johannes Krause of the Max Planck Institute.”

“Krause describes the far-reaching data set gained from looking at mitochondrial genomes: "This is not just the DNA of one person. It's the DNA of the parents, grandparents, grandparents' parents, grand-grand-grandparents' parents and so forth.”

https://www.cnn.com/2017/06/22/health/ancient-egypt-mummy-dna-genome-heritage/index.html

Once again they didn't use this new technique on the remains from King Tut and his family to disprove the previous results. This was nothing more than word salad. The reason they won't test the mummies from King Tut's family is because this is how King Tut's family looks:




Queen Tiye, the Great Royal Wife of Amenhotep III, mother of Akhenaten and grandmother of Tutankhamun




The Great Pharaoh Amenhotep III, husband of Tiye, father of Akhenaten and grandfather of Tutankhamun




The Great Pharoah Akhenaten, husband to Queen Nefertiti and father to the boy King Tutankhamun




Mektaten, second daughter of Pharaoh Akhenaten and his Wife Nefertiti, sister to Tutankhamun




Head of the statue of a princess, one of the six daughters of Akhenaten and Nefertiti






And finally King Tut himself.



Those are clearly a bunch of black people. And the only DNA tests to be done on them thus far showed they were most closely related to Sub-Saharan Africans. The scholars you cite would rather test unknown individuals from the north of the country than the most famous royal family in Ancient Egyptian history because it's clear to anyone with eyes that these people were black.

Ask yourself this. Why do we not see these faces more often? Is it because of their unambiguous African features?

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

I don't care about their skin tone. But my understanding from the DNA record is they were likely equal parts Bedouin and African peoples.

It's funny you bring that up, because from my experience, typically the ones most obsessed over skin tone and perceived degrees of "blackness" are other people of color.

What you've stated is pretty much what I've said, that southern Nile people, the precursors and developers of the pyramid were darker skinned while those in the middle to northern regions were lighter skinned people with heavy Bedouin/Arab influence, along with others during the last third/quarter of their dynasties. Culturally and ethnically different in significant ways from their "Black" contemporaries and ancestors.

The middle of Egypt was mostly black as well during the dynastic period. It was only in the north near the delta that you had admixture with non-African groups. The key point however is one you only lightly touched on. Everything we know as Ancient Egyptian civilization started in the south and spread northward. That's why I say it was a quintessentially African civilization. Because the language and culture started with the dark skin non-mixed African southerners of Upper Egypt. It was from them the first Pharoah to unify Upper and Lower Egypt emerged (King Narmer). And it was from Upper Egypt that almost every major Pharoah from the dynastic period came. The capital of Ancient Egypt for most of its history from the Middle to New Kingdom was also located in the south at Thebes.

Everything we know about Ancient Egyptian civilization places the south of the country as the origin. Also when you see the face of the Sphinx you can tell we're dealing with pure black Africans when it comes to the ruling class of Ancient Egypt.



Even with the nose gone and the lips damaged the Sphinx is unmistakably negroid in its appearance.

 

[LittleVol]

America is a mixed nation but all but one of our Presidents was white and the Nation was founded by white men from England. I have never denied Ancient Egypt was a mixed society especially after its rise to power. Just as America became more mixed as we became a global superpower and people from other parts of the world flocked to this country. However, the foundation of this country has always been white and the ruling class have been white people.

All the evidence we have paints a similar story with regard to Ancient Egypt. The civilization that became Ancient Egypt originated in the south near the border with Nubia. The same cultural practices that became popular in Ancient Egypt were most readily practiced in Nubia. Almost all of the Pharoahs from the dynastic period of Egyptian rule came from Upper Egypt in the south. And for most of its history, the capital of Ancient Egypt was Thebes (a city in the south).

Ancient Egypt was a quintessentially black African civilization with its roots in black Africa. As it became a global superpower the empire spread northwards to Lower Egypt and it was in northern Egypt where you saw the native black Egyptians mix with non-black foreigners. No different than how America was a white civilization that became more mixed as it became a global superpower. Despite this admixture, the ruling class in America has stayed white and similarly in Ancient Egypt the ruling class stayed black for most of its history.

Kemet

 

[LittleVol]

Nb4 D4H argues that Ragnar was black, as were the Vikings.

He's not wrong.


However, if you look today, many of the African countries are simply groveling for help from China, Russia, and US still.

There's too many languages and cultures there on that continent. With no real sense of pride.
It makes me sick.

Africa needs to worry about Africa.

 

[LittleVol]

Stop playing dumb. You were trying to refute my claim that when the Ancient Greeks used the term "Ethiopians" it was in reference to Black Africans as a whole rather than referring to the modern country of Ethiopia. Whether it's in mythology or in actual historical documents how we use language stays the same. That's why I used the Harry Potter example. In Harry Potter, JK Rowling references the people's of Britain. In the same vain Homer references the Ethiopians in the Illiad. You tried to be snarky by acting like we can't use works of fiction to reference actual lands and peoples.

With that said, I gave you actual Greek historians talking about who and where Ancient Ethiopia was. Thus rendering your entire argument mute.

* moot

Everything else was viable info tho

 

[85SugarVol]

Those 14 mummies I cited were royalty. Some of the most famous Pharoahs in history like King Tut while your mummies were nobodies from the north of the country which was known to have foreign blood at the time those individuals lived.

The study you cited is the equivalent of someone going to a cemetery in Harlem and saying because most of the remains there have African DNA that the United States was a black nation. While the study I cited is the equivalent of testing the DNA of a dozen US Presidents and coming to the conclusion that because all the US Presidents were white that the United States is a mostly white country.

See how my study makes more sense than the one you cited.

Your study is trash. The authors that wrote it say as much now.

New Study - 80 mummies, 2000 years, advanced techniques.
Old Study - 14 mummies, 200 years, flawed techniques.

LMAO. And you want to compare quality of the studies.