The Bachmanns and "reparative therapy"

#126
#126
KiffinKiller said:
Didn't god promote acceptance as well? People are frustrating.
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The God of the Bible will accept any on the basis of faith and repentance.

If your question is does God accept people just as they are without submitting to moral change... the biblical answer is no.
 
#127
#127
ToineMac said:
More of a Jesus thing really. He was the one hanging out with perceived prostitutes and drunks and tax collectors. Saying crazy stuff like love your fellow man or render unto caesar that which is caesar's. God is way into smiting evildoers
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Jesus taught repentance and accepted even the vilest sinners when they did.
 
#129
#129
KiffinKiller said:
Why can't the religious leave the gays alone? why?
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What exactly do you mean?

Do you mean that people, Christians or homosexual advocates, should not express and promote their points of view and beliefs?

Christians should definitely not harass or coerce anyone... nor should homosexual advocates. However our freedom of speech tradition and right is expressly guaranteed so that we could try to convince each other of our positions whether political, religious, sports, or anything else.
 
#130
#130
KiffinKiller said:
So you think your gay friends are immoral people?
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I think my friends do immoral things... as do I and you and LG and pretty much everyone else on earth today.

I do believe that it is more serious when one practices immorality as a lifestyle or lives in denial of their transgression. That is not because I hate them much less fear them (homophobia). It is because I sincerely believe they are on a path of physical and/or spiritual destruction.

I promise that I twist no one's arm.... nor do I shrink from that belief.
 
#132
#132
sjt18 said:
I think my friends do immoral things... as do I and you and LG and pretty much everyone else on earth today.

I do believe that it is more serious when one practices immorality as a lifestyle or lives in denial of their transgression. That is not because I hate them much less fear them (homophobia). It is because I sincerely believe they are on a path of physical and/or spiritual destruction.

I promise that I twist no one's arm.... nor do I shrink from that belief.
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So you think they are immoral. Big difference between doing something immoral and practicing it everyday.
 
#133
#133
KiffinKiller said:
Trying to fix and treat homosexuality as if it were a drinking problem isn't exactly freedom of speech.
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Trying to help people to stop doing something they no longer want to do... is just that. I am not familiar with the details of what Bachmann was/is doing. I am answering the general idea that it is "wrong" for people to offer help to those who want to leave the homosexual lifestyle... and to the notion that none have done it successfully.

I am not personally aware of widespread cases of Christians forcing homosexuals into some sort of "re-education". The ministries I know of simply say that they offer hope to those who want to change. I am not sure why that should be so offensive to you folks. It isn't like their jobs are being threatened unless they attend sensitivity tra... woops... reparative therapy classes.
 
#134
#134
KiffinKiller said:
So you think they are immoral. Big difference between doing something immoral and practicing it everyday.
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I don't think I can be more clear. Everyone is "immoral" in their natural state if you demand that I say homosexuals are immoral. Christians are "immoral" people who have been covered by the imputed righteousness of Christ.

The Bible calls those who are not born again spiritually... spiritually "dead". A homosexual unbeliever is no more "dead" than any other kind of unbelieving sinner. However, the more a person practices a sin the more hardened they become in it and risk the negative physical/material consequences of that sin.
 
#135
#135
KiffinKiller said:
Trying to fix and treat homosexuality as if it were a drinking problem isn't exactly freedom of speech.
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Its not like people are forcing gays into it. That I would have a problem. I have no issue with people who want the therapy or whatever you want to call it having access to it.
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#136
#136
Sjt,

You say that Christians should advocate for their beliefs, but at the same time not "coerce" others.

I agree.

The criticism, however, is that so many Christians have a fairly broad view of "advocate" such that they end up coercing -- and don't see a problem with it since, in their view, they have the moral high ground.

Specifically, I think that disapproving of homosexuality because you think the Bible counsels against it is perfectly okay by me . Saying a person can choose to resist their "compulsions" smacks of judging and condemning and in my mind crosses into coercion.

I actually think that's oftenthe exact plan of such language - to coerce without physically doing so.
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#137
#137
rjd970 said:
While I 100% disagree with your stance, I give you props for not mincing words...and believing what is clearly written in the religious text you subscribe to. Liberal and/or more moderate Christians are being less honest with themselves...embracing hypocrisy in the interst of political correctness, whether they want to admit it or not.
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:rock: Well said
 
#138
#138
rjd970 said:
While I 100% disagree with your stance, I give you props for not mincing words...and believing what is clearly written in the religious text you subscribe to. Liberal and/or more moderate Christians are being less honest with themselves...embracing hypocrisy in the interst of political correctness, whether they want to admit it or not.
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Gramps said:
:rock: Well said
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Disagree with Gramps because rjd's comment assumes that there is only one interpretation of any given section of the Bible (or other text). It further assumes that the Bible is intended to lay down laws, as opposed to using that kind of instructional dialogue to describe events and provide guidance on the keys to a spiritual existence.

I don't read it all parts as mandating (or barring) specific conduct in all situations, so much as using what was at the time an absolutist view of the world and God such that it was the best way to impart His wisdom and wishes for us.

If it were written today, for example, I think it might be done in such a way that it would be amenable to an iphone app.
 
#139
#139
lawgator1 said:
Disagree with Gramps because rjd's comment assumes that there is only one interpretation of any given section of the Bible (or other text). It further assumes that the Bible is intended to lay down laws, as opposed to using that kind of instructional dialogue to describe events and provide guidance on the keys to a spiritual existence.
I don't read it all parts as mandating (or barring) specific conduct in all situations, so much as using what was at the time an absolutist view of the world and God such that it was the best way to impart His wisdom and wishes for us.

If it were written today, for example, I think it might be done in such a way that it would be amenable to an iphone app.
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The bold is rich.

This is exactly what I am talking about. Buffet style faith, where you pick and choose what you want to believe, and whitewash everything else. Laying down old and new laws is exactly what one of the primary purposes of the text were, and 500 years ago heretics were burned at the stake while scripture was quoted. This notion of "instructional dialogue" is a modern interpretation phenonmenon, only coming about when we realize the absurdity of what is really being said.

Where, in any part of the Bible, would leave you to believe that God isn't, at the very least, irritated with the idea of homosexuality? Some places it is outright outlawed punishable by death, other is it explicitely described as a sin. As far as I know, nowhere does it say..."well, I guess I could be cool with homosexuals, it isn't a real sin afterall."

Say what you will about the fringe groups, but at least they are honest with themselves about what they believe.
 
#140
#140
rid, are saying that a Christian is bound to live his life in a style and under rules that are 2000 + years old ? I mean, that makes life pretty impossible in this day and age.

What's wrong with the view that it has to be read with a cognition as to how it was written?
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#142
#142
nbakerld said:
Off the top of my head: Murray Rothbard, FA Hayek (nobel prize winner), Von Mises, Walter Williams, Thomas DiLorenzo.
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droski said:
i haven't heard of any of these people.
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Do you know of any economists? If you are familiar with the field of economics you should know Hayek, Williams, and probably Rothbard. The problem is you don't think there are libertarian economists because you don't see them on CNN or Fox News. They are successfully fooling people like you into thinking this is a fringe cult of economics. There are plenty of libertarian economists that I don't even know about. Today was the first I heard of Vernon Smith who was the 2002 Nobel Prize winner.

‪Experimental Economist Vernon Smith on the Housing Bubble, Adam Smith, and Libertarianism‬‏ - YouTube
 
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#143
#143
lawgator1 said:
rid, are saying that a Christian is bound to live his life in a style and under rules that are 2000 + years old ? I mean, that makes life pretty impossible in this day and age.

What's wrong with the view that it has to be read with a cognition as to how it was written?
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I'm saying if you believe this is all the word of God, then there whouldn't be a shelf life on the teachings. It should be eternal and correct. For example, God obviously dislikes homosexuals. The stj's and the like seem like the only ones that will admit this. Moderates, while not being cognizant of what they are doing, are really trying to shape inheritantly irrational and politically incorrect beliefs into a 21st centruy world view to make themselves feel better about what they believe. The "fringe" groups are the ones really being more honest with what they say they believe. The problem with being "read with a cognition" is that now you are playing God, deciding what was really meant.

And if living by the word of God 2000 years ago makes life impossible this day and age, what does that say about your God?
 
#144
#144
rjd970 said:
I'm saying if you believe this is all the word of God, then there whouldn't be a shelf life on the teachings. It should be eternal and correct. For example, God obviously dislikes homosexuals. The stj's and the like seem like the only ones that will admit this. Moderates, while not being cognizant of what they are doing, are really trying to shape inheritantly irrational and politically incorrect beliefs into a 21st centruy world view to make themselves feel better about what they believe. The "fringe" groups are the ones really being more honest with what they say they believe. The problem with being "read with a cognition" is that now you are playing God, deciding what was really meant.

And if living by the word of God 2000 years ago makes life impossible this day and age, what does that say about your God?
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I see what you're doing. Being honest about being a bigot is at least honest.

I would argue that it's easy for them to be bigoted because they use the Bible as an excuse.
 
#145
#145
KiffinKiller said:
I see what you're doing. Being honest about being a bigot is at least honest.

I would argue that it's easy for them to be bigoted because they use the Bible as an excuse.
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Disagree with your last statement. If anything, watch the news and you will quickly realize that bad people will do bad things, good people will do good things...but religion has a tendancy to make good people to bad things.

I wouldn't even call it bigoted, it is just what the beliefs are.
 
#146
#146
rjd970 said:
Disagree with your last statement. If anything, watch the news and you will quickly realize that bad people will do bad things, good people will do good things...but religion has a tendancy to make good people to bad things.

I wouldn't even call it bigoted, it is just what the beliefs are.
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It can. But it's also used as an excuse for bad people to do bad things in the name of 'good'.
 
#147
#147
rjd970 said:
Disagree with your last statement. If anything, watch the news and you will quickly realize that bad people will do bad things, good people will do good things...but religion has a tendancy to make good people to bad things.

I wouldn't even call it bigoted, it is just what the beliefs are.
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Example? I would argue that often bad people who happen to be religious do bad things or I would argue that people use religion to accomplish ulterior motives. I would not say religion has a "tendency" to make good people do bad things, but I won't deny that it has led to good people doing bad things.
 
#148
#148
nbakerld said:
Example? I would argue that often bad people who happen to be religious do bad things or I would argue that people use religion to accomplish ulterior motives. I would not say religion has a "tendency" to make good people do bad things, but I won't deny that it has led to good people doing bad things.
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All you're doing is questioning his wording. You agree.
 
#149
#149
nbakerld said:
Example? I would argue that often bad people who happen to be religious do bad things or I would argue that people use religion to accomplish ulterior motives. I would not say religion has a "tendency" to make good people do bad things, but I won't deny that it has led to good people doing bad things.
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See terrorism as exhibit A. What else would cause middle class, well educated 20 something males to hijack planes and fly them into buildings or blow themselves up on buses...and not only be celebrated, but have their parents sing their praises and showered with gifts? Whatever their motives, it is absurd to think they would be doing this if they didn't truly believe paradise awaited them on the other side, or that they would even care that much about what amounts to be an ugly patch of desert on the mediterranean.

Could anything else be more illogical, or ill-conceived based on what amounts to be magical nonsense? It is very hard to believe without the requisite religious beliefs any of this nonsense would be going on.

JMO.
 
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