The Case for Reparations

#26
#26
volprof said:
The reason why I'm against reparations is that the majority of people receiving them probably aren't even going to us them to their long-term advantage or for that of their families. To greatly simplify the issue, let's say the govt. automatically gives $10,000 to every black family (or perhaps even person) in the US. The majority of these people most likely won't even invest this money in anything beneficial, like education, savings accounts, etc. Instead, they'll probably just spend it either frivolously or for things that might only be needed in the near-terms, thereby not really improving the overall condition of the community. Yes, they'll have a little bit more money, but for how long, and what will be the actual benefit long-term?

Now, this might seem like I'm doing a "you people" racist argument, but I would wager that the same would apply to basically any group in America.

I could be wrong about this, of course.
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Every black family? So Haitian and Jamaican immigrants get the money too?

What about mixed people? How black do you have to be?

I thought this was about giving money back to the descendants of slaves, not black people in general?
 
#27
#27
Vol8188 said:
Every black family? So Haitian and Jamaican immigrants get the money too?

What about mixed people? How black do you have to be?

I thought this was about giving money back to the descendants of slaves, not black people in general?
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The view tends to be black people no matter where you came from. My friend talks about reparations..I always remind him he was born in South America..no rep's for him! But he disagrees because he thinks all blacks, no matter where they came from, will get government cheese.
 
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#28
#28
volprof said:
The reason why I'm against reparations is that the majority of people receiving them probably aren't even going to us them to their long-term advantage or for that of their families. To greatly simplify the issue, let's say the govt. automatically gives $10,000 to every black family (or perhaps even person) in the US. The majority of these people most likely won't even invest this money in anything beneficial, like education, savings accounts, etc. Instead, they'll probably just spend it either frivolously or for things that might only be needed in the near-terms, thereby not really improving the overall condition of the community. Yes, they'll have a little bit more money, but for how long, and what will be the actual benefit long-term?

Now, this might seem like I'm doing a "you people" racist argument, but I would wager that the same would apply to basically any group in America.

I could be wrong about this, of course.
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We would have WAY more of this:
ghetto%2Bcar%2Bnewport.jpg


But that would be ok. The government does not want you to save your reparations. You need to put that back into the economy and help boost the raised car/gas station product branding car wrap/rims industry's.
 
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#30
#30
How far back should this go? I would guess a large percentage of those of European ancestry have a descendent who was a slave during the Roman era.

What about descendants of other methods of bullying? What if a railroad or the government or some other entity took an ancestor's land? Wouldn't there be a greater likelihood that the loss of family owned land have a greater impact today than an ancestor being a slave?

Also, if slavery didn't exist, wouldn't the overwhelming percentage of blacks in this country still be in Africa? I'd say they're much better off here than being in Africa, right?

Truth is, there's a victim culture that's been developed in the black community in general that's been far more hurtful to those living in modern day America than anything that happened 150 years ago or longer.
 
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#31
#31
Vol8188 said:
Every black family? So Haitian and Jamaican immigrants get the money too?

What about mixed people? How black do you have to be?

I thought this was about giving money back to the descendants of slaves, not black people in general?
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My example was the simplest version of reparations - that these go to all black people in America. I agree with you, however, that this oversimplifies things.
 
#32
#32
volprof said:
My example was the simplest version of reparations - that these go to all black people in America. I agree with you, however, that this oversimplifies things.
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Which is why I don't believe it would ever work.
 
#35
#35
dallasmp said:
The Case for Reparations - The Atlantic

For the few posters in this subforum capable of reading. I'm sure this will go over swimmingly.
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Nice way to be an ass from the get go.

More of a novella than an article. I skimmed through and saw a thorough documentation of the ills faced by blacks in this country but not a clear statement of what reparations even means (what is the author advocating).

On the larger issue - who has the responsibility to make for past ills? The author documented a long list of bad treatment but that treatment ranges from national (slavery) to state (e.g. Mississippi), to local municipality, to individual company. Are all these due a response from the national collective?

If the long list of wrongs deserves national response then we also need to offer reparations to the Chinese, Japanese, Irish, Italians, American Indians and any number of other groups who suffered from policies ranging from national to state to municipality to company.

If the author is seeking acknowledgement that blacks in this country have been treated horribly then I see no problem with that but I'm skeptical that such recognition qualifies as reparations.
 
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#36
#36
If we're paying reparations to descendants of slaves, we need to be fair about this.

Native Americans deserve a share for being effectively wiped out, as well as the seizure of their lands.

Descendants of 19th century Jewish and Irish immigrants should be paid because of the unfair treatment and slum living their ancestors were forced into.

The British government should be paid for the great loss of life and resources caused by the American Revolution.

Descendants of folks who lost their lives/resources during the Great Depression should be paid due to their relatives suffering.

The descendants of Japanese citizens forced into containment camps in WWII deserve a cut as well.

Where does it end?
 
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#38
#38
Godfatha said:
How far back should this go? I would guess a large percentage of those of European ancestry have a descendent who was a slave during the Roman era.

What about descendants of other methods of bullying? What if a railroad or the government or some other entity took an ancestor's land? Wouldn't there be a greater likelihood that the loss of family owned land have a greater impact today than an ancestor being a slave?

Also, if slavery didn't exist, wouldn't the overwhelming percentage of blacks in this country still be in Africa? I'd say they're much better off here than being in Africa, right?

Truth is, there's a victim culture that's been developed in the black community in general that's been far more hurtful to those living in modern day America than anything that happened 150 years ago or longer.
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....hard to say.

You make the assumption the country would be just as it was today without slave labor.


The victim culture was born through the millions of actual victims and passed down through the survivors.

It's modern America's cross to bear.
 
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#39
#39
I'm wondering if the OP read the whole article and what his view on this is?

To the OP - what are "reparations" specifically and how do you advocate they be made (assuming you support reparations)?
 
#41
#41
As best I can tell from this opus - here's the call to action

The popular mocking of reparations as a harebrained scheme authored by wild-eyed lefties and intellectually unserious black nationalists is fear masquerading as laughter. Black nationalists have always perceived something unmentionable about America that integrationists dare not acknowledge—that white supremacy is not merely the work of hotheaded demagogues, or a matter of false consciousness, but a force so fundamental to America that it is difficult to imagine the country without it.

And so we must imagine a new country. Reparations—by which I mean the full acceptance of our collective biography and its consequences—is the price we must pay to see ourselves squarely. The recovering alcoholic may well have to live with his illness for the rest of his life. But at least he is not living a drunken lie. Reparations beckons us to reject the intoxication of hubris and see America as it is—the work of fallible humans.

Won’t reparations divide us? Not any more than we are already divided. The wealth gap merely puts a number on something we feel but cannot say—that American prosperity was ill-gotten and selective in its distribution. What is needed is an airing of family secrets, a settling with old ghosts. What is needed is a healing of the American psyche and the banishment of white guilt.

What I’m talking about is more than recompense for past injustices—more than a handout, a payoff, hush money, or a reluctant bribe. What I’m talking about is a national reckoning that would lead to spiritual renewal. Reparations would mean the end of scarfing hot dogs on the Fourth of July while denying the facts of our heritage. Reparations would mean the end of yelling “patriotism” while waving a Confederate flag. Reparations would mean a revolution of the American consciousness, a reconciling of our self-image as the great democratizer with the facts of our history.
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The highlighted portion is the big problem as I see it. This premise is fundamental to the call to action but I don't see the justification for the premise. I would imagine the vast majority of the country is fine with and desires true equality. Beginning from a point that white supremacy is engrained in the very fabric of the country and that citizens don't want to recognize that and let it go tells me this author would never be satisfied with what he is advocating as reparations.

Also, I think he sells short the extent to which most people acknowledge the history of this country and DO NOT seek to preserve some system that systematically disadvantages one group of people.
 
#42
#42
Crew said:
....hard to say.

You make the assumption the country would be just as it was today without slave labor.


The victim cluture was born through the millions of actual victims and passed down through the survivors.

It's modern Amerca's cross to bear.
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There comes a time when one has to accept responsibility for one's own actions. One will never be successful until he stops blaming others for his problems and takes ownership of his own life. There have been many blacks that have done just that and went on to be very successful. Unfortunately, these people get called Uncle Toms and chastised by the "leaders" of the black community for speaking the truth. See, the leaders of the black community and Democrats have no interest in the black community enriching themselves because if that community did so, the black "leaders" would lose power and the Democrats would lose a voting base. That form of handout, keep-you-poor slavery is a million times more detrimental to African Americans today than slavery is.

I'm for the black community becoming more educated, and prospering. This country would be a million times better off if that was the case. They never will as a whole though if they keep believing the lie that they're owed, that they should take their meager penance from the government, and by God keep voting Democrat because the evil white people want to take away your penance.
 
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#44
#44
Godfatha said:
There comes a time when one has to accept responsibility for one's own actions. One will never be successful until he stops blaming others for his problems and takes ownership of his own life. There have been many blacks that have done just that and went on to be very successful. Unfortunately, these people get called Uncle Toms and chastised by the "leaders" of the black community for speaking the truth. See, the leaders of the black community and Democrats have no interest in the black community enriching themselves because if that community did so, the black "leaders" would lose power and the Democrats would lose a voting base. That form of handout, keep-you-poor slavery is a million times more detrimental to African Americans today than slavery is.

I'm for the black community becoming more educated, and prospering. This country would be a million times better off if that was the case. They never will as a whole though if they keep believing the lie that they're owed, that they should take their meager penance from the government, and by God keep voting Democrat because the evil white people want to take away your penance.
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I can agree with that for the most part.

I personally struggle when it comes to the pros and cons when it come to politicians. But an active, educated African-American voter base would be ideal.

I love Memphis, but the reverends and their flocks tend to vote like idiots.
 
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#45
#45
Crew said:
....hard to say.

You make the assumption the country would be just as it was today without slave labor.


The victim culture was born through the millions of actual victims and passed down through the survivors.

It's modern America's cross to bear.
Click to expand...

Slavery ended 150 years ago. America grew into and industrialized, prosperous world power without it being there. Commodity prices in the early 1800s would have been higher, but there still would have been a large demand for cotton. I would argue that the US in general would have been better off without slavery because those commodities would have still been harvested and sold, but the people working the field would have been paid, and England would have paid more for the cotton, shifting more wealth to the United States.
 
#46
#46
If slavery never happened there would be few blacks in the US. Pretend that's not true. Both blacks and whites today would be much better off had slavery never existed.
 
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#48
#48
I'm assuming you are asking why both groups would be better off?

Slavery kept poor white southerners down because they had less to offer in a world where slave labor existed and it hindered progress in that regard.

Though I believe the Civil War was not really about slavery, it would not have happened without slavery.

Aside from the negatives effects to society in the aftermath of the war and how long it took us to recover from the war economically and socially, 650,000 Americans died. Had those Americans lived, and had they had posterity, we certainly would have benefited from whatever they would have done in their lifetimes. There would have been inventors, scientists, businessmen, academics, etc. that would have made a better world. Maybe we would have already benefited from a brilliant mind that found the cure for cancer. Maybe we would have benefited from a brilliant mind that discovered a completely renewable and efficient energy source. Etc. The true cost of war is completely unknown because there is the unseen.
 
#50
#50
n_huffhines said:
I'm assuming you are asking why both groups would be better off?

Slavery kept poor white southerners down because they had less to offer in a world where slave labor existed and it hindered progress in that regard.

Though I believe the Civil War was not really about slavery, it would not have happened without slavery.

Aside from the negatives effects to society in the aftermath of the war and how long it took us to recover from the war economically and socially, 650,000 Americans died. Had those Americans lived, and had they had posterity, we certainly would have benefited from whatever they would have done in their lifetimes. There would have been inventors, scientists, businessmen, academics, etc. that would have made a better world. Maybe we would have already benefited from a brilliant mind that found the cure for cancer. Maybe we would have benefited from a brilliant mind that discovered a completely renewable and efficient energy source. Etc. The true cost of war is completely unknown because there is the unseen.
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Do you really believe blacks would be better off in Africa?
 
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