The death of a school's tradition?

The South committed treason. The South lost. Get over it.
Oh, i'm sorry...I thought Ole Miss was wanting to rid the school mascot and tradition because of the (false) link to racism..not treason..btw i bet your fine with the Boston Tea Party act... were they not "REBELS"? Protesting a "tax" and decided to leave the "Union" (England) until they were invaded, and had to fight to defend and keep they're homeland...since when was the right to defend your Independence treason?
 
Oh, i'm sorry...I thought Ole Miss was wanting to rid the school mascot and tradition because of the (false) link to racism..not treason..btw i bet your fine with the Boston Tea Party act... were they not "REBELS"? Protesting a "tax" and decided to leave the "Union" (England) until they were invaded, and had to fight to defend and keep they're homeland...since when was the right to defend your Independence treason?
Kind of a different situation considering we don't live in England right now.
 
The CBF was also used by the Klan, whose mission was to foster white superiority through intimidation and violence.

The Klan also uses the stars and strips. We can't police every nut job that decides to use an honorable symbol for their stupid causes.
 
Maybe you missed the 'they had to go to war to keep it' part of that post.

Have you actually read anything I have posted? The whole point I am making is that the soldiers were not fighting over slavery, this is true for BOTH sides. I officially reserve the right to not respond to your boneheaded post. :banghead2:
 
Exactly my point. You can honor your brave soldiers without displaying the symbol of their cause.

They don't have the same free speech rights over their that we have, hence it is ILLEGAL to display the swastika.
The swastika and the CBF...apples/oranges.
Better comparisons would be the symbols and flags used by various REBELLIONS and solidarity movements throughout the years, such as the famed "Don't Tread On Me" Rattlesnake used during the REBELLION that occurred in the 1770's and which was used early on by some Confederate companies.
 
Why not? If certain individuals want to continue to honor their ancestors and, specifically, the right to slavery that they were defending, I see no problem in holding them partially accountable for the socio-economic struggles and woes of the macro-African-American community.

My god, you still don't get it.
If you are going to continue to be purposefully ignorant on this topic, then what about the flag of the USA? It flew on slave ships and in a country where slavery fluorished for 90 years.
The southern armies, the men that did the fighting, were not fighting to defend slavery. The Confederate battle flag was THEIR symbol, the symbol of the soldiers. it was not a political symbol but a symbol of men and solidarity. I will bet you that you can't find a legitimite historian that will deny this. I will repeat an earlier post:

The Northern armies were not fighting to free the slaves and the Southern armies were not fighting to defend slavery. The goal of the North was to defeat the Confederacy in order to restore the Union; the goal of the South was to win its fight for independence. From the beginning to the end, Lincoln made it clear that slavery/emancipation was secondary to reunion. (As it happened, the fate of 4 million slaves hung in the balance once Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation.)

Most Southerners owned no slaves--many such as Lee and Jackson favored gradual emancipation--but they were strongly opposed to abolition for political, economic and social reasons. Moreover, the powerful minority of slaveholders were calling the shots (politically speaking). In short, slavery precipitated secession and doomed the Confederacy. The Confederate government was unwilling to sacrifice slavery for the cause of independence, so there was no chance for a negotiated (political) settlement of the war. In this sense, it unintentionally became a war for/against slavery, but that was not why the two sides were fighting.
Have any historian dispute this, you dope.
 
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I think most are so busy arguing they not really paying attention to what's being said. I have no problem with people who want to celebrate confederate soldiers. Why shouldn't you? I've been to re-enactments. I met some awesome folks there. BTW black people go to civil war re-enactments. its awesome. Educational and good fun. I've seen the passion people have for this. I'll bet a lot of you are descendants of CSA soldiers. I don't think the flag is the best way to do so. That flag is one of the most divisive symbols that exists. It's associated with some ideologies i'm sure most of you don't prescribe to. There are folks that see that flag and think of racism or the Klan. Its actually counter productive to what some of you are trying to do.
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A very REASONABLE post. While I cherish the flag I do realize that it is divisive because the morons of the KKK have chosen to use this noble flag for their ugly objectives. Alas, there are other CBF designs that could be used. It is a shame that:
1. Our children are not properly taught about the war but are told a sanitized, simplified version of "good guys and bad guys"
2. The association of the flag with hate groups.

The CBF regained fame during WWII of all things. Soldiers and Marines from the south would have CBF to identify themselves as Southerners and to have "a piece of home" with them.

While I do understand it is a controversial symbol, the thing that burns me up are self rightous jerks that don't FULLY understand the history of the flag and why it is honorable and sacred to many Southerners.
And the kicker...the one ancestor of mine that I knew of that fought in the war was a Union officer from Michigan (my fathers people came from Michigan to TN in the 1940's)
 
Typical commie. "Hell, just tax it".

You are right, I'm a Communist. Thank you for bringing that to my attention.

My god, you still don't get it.

Your god.

If you are going to continue to be purposefully ignorant on this topic, then what about the flag of the USA? It flew on slave ships and in a country where slavery fluorished for 90 years.

The American Flag that I see flying around has fifty stars on it. Also, the entire existence of the USA was not in an effort to defend slavery. The framers of the Constitution made compromises with some Southern states, knowing that the compromises were imperfect yet also realizing that without said compromises America would never flourish. It was choosing the lesser of two evils; the CSA, on the other hand, demonstrated their willingness to destroy America in an effort to protect the institution of slavery.

If this stance of mine is purposefully ignorant, in your opinion, so be it.
The southern armies, the men that did the fighting, were not fighting to defend slavery.

The men that do the fighting, in most all wars throughout history, are ideologically disconnected from the reasons they are sent to war. I figured I had demonstrated this point; apparently, you still do not get it.

I will expound further. I would argue that while the majority of German officers in WWII might have tacitly supported the Final Solution and World Domination, most were never involved in the actual systematic extermination of peoples. On the flip side, I would argue that the majority of officers in the CSA did own slaves, to include an overwhelming majority of General Officers (while Lee did free his slaves before the war; he did at one time own them).

The Confederate battle flag was THEIR symbol, the symbol of the soldiers. it was not a political symbol but a symbol of men and solidarity. I will bet you that you can't find a legitimite historian that will deny this. I will repeat an earlier post:

The Northern armies were not fighting to free the slaves and the Southern armies were not fighting to defend slavery. The goal of the North was to defeat the Confederacy in order to restore the Union; the goal of the South was to win its fight for independence.

You are correct that the North was not fighting to free slaves; you egregiously err in trying to state that the entire existence of the CSA did not depend upon the foundation of protecting the institution of slavery.

From the beginning to the end, Lincoln made it clear that slavery/emancipation was secondary to reunion. (As it happened, the fate of 4 million slaves hung in the balance once Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation.)

Most Southerners owned no slaves--many such as Lee and Jackson favored gradual emancipation--but they were strongly opposed to abolition for political, economic and social reasons. Moreover, the powerful minority of slaveholders were calling the shots (politically speaking). In short, slavery precipitated secession and doomed the Confederacy. The Confederate government was unwilling to sacrifice slavery for the cause of independence, so there was no chance for a negotiated (political) settlement of the war. In this sense, it unintentionally became a war for/against slavery, but that was not why the two sides were fighting.
Have any historian dispute this, you dope.

It did not unintentionally become a war over slavery. From Bleeding Kansas to Harper's Ferry to Fort Sumter, the main issue was always slavery.

On top of that, the Stars and Bars continued to be displayed and celebrated throughout the post-war South by persons who were hell-bent on continuing the institutional oppression of African-Americans, which was government sanctioned through the 1960s.

Your continued argument that the Rebel flag does not stand as a symbol of white supremacy over African-Americans is absolutely ridiculous. You are simply trying to place that flag in a vacuum in which all it has ever stood for was a rallying cry and a call to arms for all the poor folk soldiers who were just trying to defend their homes from Northern Aggressors, while intentionally ignoring any and all historical claims concerning slavery and oppression before, during, and after the war.
 
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On top of that, the Stars and Bars continued to be displayed and celebrated throughout the post-war South by persons who were hell-bent on continuing the institutional oppression of African-Americans, which was government sanctioned through the 1960s.


Could you clarify one thing for me? Are you talking about the actual "Stars and Bars" or the Confederate Battle Flag? I've noticed many people incorrectly refer to the CBF as the Stars and Bars, when in fact they are two different flags.
 
Could you clarify one thing for me? Are you talking about the actual "Stars and Bars" or the Confederate Battle Flag? I've noticed many people incorrectly refer to the CBF as the Stars and Bars, when in fact they are two different flags.

The Battle Flag and Second National Flag.
 
Could you clarify one thing for me? Are you talking about the actual "Stars and Bars" or the Confederate Battle Flag? I've noticed many people incorrectly refer to the CBF as the Stars and Bars, when in fact they are two different flags.
The "Stars and bars" to my knowdledge refers to the U.S. flag...Our Confederate Flag is know as the "Southern Cross". and is the one atop the flag pole in my yard...right below the Tennessee State Flag of course
 
The "Stars and bars" to my knowdledge refers to the U.S. flag...Our Confederate Flag is know as the "Southern Cross". and is the one atop the flag pole in my yard...right below the Tennessee State Flag of course

That's stars and strips for the U S flag. I've always heard the stars and bars for the CBF. I remember when I was in the 4th or 5th grade we went to the Tennessee history museum in Nashville and I bought a stars and bars flag but I didn't know what it was a big deal. I just likes the civil war and I was from the south. Being african American my father scolded me and made me throw it away. It still don't bother me. Like I said once before, as long as they ain't tring to harm me, fly it I don't care. I'm above all that
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That's stars and strips for the U S flag. I've always heard the stars and bars for the CBF. I remember when I was in the 4th or 5th grade we went to the Tennessee history museum in Nashville and I bought a stars and bars flag but I didn't know what it was a big deal. I just likes the civil war and I was from the south. Being african American my father scolded me and made me throw it away. It still don't bother me. Like I said once before, as long as they ain't tring to harm me, fly it I don't care. I'm above all that
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You are the man!
 
A very REASONABLE post. While I cherish the flag I do realize that it is divisive because the morons of the KKK have chosen to use this noble flag for their ugly objectives. Alas, there are other CBF designs that could be used. It is a shame that:
1. Our children are not properly taught about the war but are told a sanitized, simplified version of "good guys and bad guys"
2. The association of the flag with hate groups.

The CBF regained fame during WWII of all things. Soldiers and Marines from the south would have CBF to identify themselves as Southerners and to have "a piece of home" with them.

While I do understand it is a controversial symbol, the thing that burns me up are self rightous jerks that don't FULLY understand the history of the flag and why it is honorable and sacred to many Southerners.
And the kicker...the one ancestor of mine that I knew of that fought in the war was a Union officer from Michigan (my fathers people came from Michigan to TN in the 1940's)

Why the heck should that flag be sacred to any southerner alive today? Yes, 150 years ago, our ancestors fought and died under it -- and I do mean some of my own personal ancestors -- but isn't that superseded by the fact that only 50 years ago, crowds of southerners waved that flag while hissing at black kids who were trying to go to decent schools, black women who were trying to eat in a restaurant like human beings, black men who wanted to vote? How can the 150-year-old usage of that flag be so important to someone in the 21st century that it totally cancels out the merely 50-year-old association with hatred and segregation and lynchings -- the flag that was waved in hatred in the faces of many people who are still alive to remember it?

As I said upthread, I am descended from people who fought for the south. I had a couple of ancestors die in it; I had a great-grandfather live and be highly decorated. He was a saboteur for the Confederates, a guerrilla fighter whose job was to blow up bridges and train tracks behind enemy lines and disrupt their supply lines. He was wounded; he won medals; he earned a large enough pension to buy the family farm that my mother eventually grew up on in middle Tennessee. I am proud of him and his picture's on the wall in my living room. But I will be damned if the flag he fought under ever hangs anywhere in my house. I have neighbors with dark skin, and they are great people who are welcome in my house, and that flag is a hell of a lot more emotionally meaningful to them than a black and white picture of my great-grandfather is to me. Flying that flag is fscking discourteous if nothing else, and as southerners I thought we were supposed to care about stuff like that.
 
You are right, I'm a Communist. Thank you for bringing that to my attention.

Your god.



The American Flag that I see flying around has fifty stars on it. Also, the entire existence of the USA was not in an effort to defend slavery. The framers of the Constitution made compromises with some Southern states, knowing that the compromises were imperfect yet also realizing that without said compromises America would never flourish. It was choosing the lesser of two evils; the CSA, on the other hand, demonstrated their willingness to destroy America in an effort to protect the institution of slavery.

If this stance of mine is purposefully ignorant, in your opinion, so be it.


The men that do the fighting, in most all wars throughout history, are ideologically disconnected from the reasons they are sent to war. I figured I had demonstrated this point; apparently, you still do not get it.

I will expound further. I would argue that while the majority of German officers in WWII might have tacitly supported the Final Solution and World Domination, most were never involved in the actual systematic extermination of peoples. On the flip side, I would argue that the majority of officers in the CSA did own slaves, to include an overwhelming majority of General Officers (while Lee did free his slaves before the war; he did at one time own them).



You are correct that the North was not fighting to free slaves; you egregiously err in trying to state that the entire existence of the CSA did not depend upon the foundation of protecting the institution of slavery.



It did not unintentionally become a war over slavery. From Bleeding Kansas to Harper's Ferry to Fort Sumter, the main issue was always slavery.

On top of that, the Stars and Bars continued to be displayed and celebrated throughout the post-war South by persons who were hell-bent on continuing the institutional oppression of African-Americans, which was government sanctioned through the 1960s.

Your continued argument that the Rebel flag does not stand as a symbol of white supremacy over African-Americans is absolutely ridiculous. You are simply trying to place that flag in a vacuum in which all it has ever stood for was a rallying cry and a call to arms for all the poor folk soldiers who were just trying to defend their homes from Northern Aggressors, while intentionally ignoring any and all historical claims concerning slavery and oppression before, during, and after the war.

I am done with you. You choose to see the world the way you want to. No common sense or facts can make an emotional response to an issue change.
The only thing I gather from your post is that you are likely a very unhappy person. I honestly feel sorry for you. One of my favorite thinkers, Emanuel Kant, believed that one needed to earn the right to be happy to achieve real peace and happiness. I suspect you have not earned the right to be happy, thus your sullen outlook on the world. In your narcissistic reply to my sarcastic question about your age, you went into length about various personal experiences. We all have them son, and If yours were negative then I suggest therapy or anti depression drugs.
Maybe one day you will be worthy of happiness...

Over and out:salute:
 
Why the heck should that flag be sacred to any southerner alive today? Yes, 150 years ago, our ancestors fought and died under it -- and I do mean some of my own personal ancestors -- but isn't that superseded by the fact that only 50 years ago, crowds of southerners waved that flag while hissing at black kids who were trying to go to decent schools, black women who were trying to eat in a restaurant like human beings, black men who wanted to vote? How can the 150-year-old usage of that flag be so important to someone in the 21st century that it totally cancels out the merely 50-year-old association with hatred and segregation and lynchings -- the flag that was waved in hatred in the faces of many people who are still alive to remember it?

As I said upthread, I am descended from people who fought for the south. I had a couple of ancestors die in it; I had a great-grandfather live and be highly decorated. He was a saboteur for the Confederates, a guerrilla fighter whose job was to blow up bridges and train tracks behind enemy lines and disrupt their supply lines. He was wounded; he won medals; he earned a large enough pension to buy the family farm that my mother eventually grew up on in middle Tennessee. I am proud of him and his picture's on the wall in my living room. But I will be damned if the flag he fought under ever hangs anywhere in my house. I have neighbors with dark skin, and they are great people who are welcome in my house, and that flag is a hell of a lot more emotionally meaningful to them than a black and white picture of my great-grandfather is to me. Flying that flag is fscking discourteous if nothing else, and as southerners I thought we were supposed to care about stuff like that.

Alas the mystic of symbolism, what something means to one can mean something very different to another.
I am proud of you, you have gone through several post without reminding all of us how much better UGA is than UT. First steps...
 
The guy with the most emotional tear-blurred posts in this thread calls therealut's argument emotional in between sobs and tantrums. That's comedy gold right there.
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I am done with you. You choose to see the world the way you want to. No common sense or facts can make an emotional response to an issue change.
The only thing I gather from your post is that you are likely a very unhappy person. I honestly feel sorry for you. One of my favorite thinkers, Emanuel Kant, believed that one needed to earn the right to be happy to achieve real peace and happiness. I suspect you have not earned the right to be happy, thus your sullen outlook on the world. In your narcissistic reply to my sarcastic question about your age, you went into length about various personal experiences. We all have them son, and If yours were negative then I suggest therapy or anti depression drugs.
Maybe one day you will be worthy of happiness...

Over and out:salute:

Immanuel Kant. Funny that you consider him one of your favorite thinkers, yet you tacitly support slavery.
 
Best post of the thread.

Non-expansion of slavery into the territories meant the eventual extinction of slavery, and wealthy southerners knew it. They also knew that if a war was going to have to be fought over it, it needed to be fought sooner rather than later. Ergo Fort Sumter.



Protecting your home is a noble cause. Protecting your home because it started a war to defend its practice of keeping humans as cattle certainly muddies the water a bit.
 

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