The Future of LV Basketball

[armchair]

Ok so should Coach Summitt have been fired based on how the team performed when Candace left? What was the team like from 08 until Holly took over? Were you calling for Pat's Head?

Summitt won 8 national titles: I think that ensures lifetime job stability. Having said that, Summitt couldn't coach team offense. The reason UConn went roaring past us both when PS was coaching UT and since she stepped down is that Geno is excellent at coaching all facets of the game. Summitt totally focused on defense and rebounding, and our offense went in the toilet for the last decade of her tenure--and since. Poor shooting, poor assist/turnover ratio, etc.--it's been discussed. UConn defends and rebounds like we did in our salad years--and pours in the points. PS was 0-4 against Geno in National Title games specifically because our offense was crappy and his was better.

I am negative about Warlick precisely because we will never get back to the top with her. That ought to be obvious by now. All we're doing is wasting time and watching our program's pedigree fade. The rest of you apparently want the Vols to remain mediocre for, what, another five years, ten years? You think pixies are going to sprinkle magic dust on Holly and turn her into a smart, strong, good coach this year? Get real. It is the Warlick supporters who are hurting the program. :blink:

 

[mlindsay]

Maybe you need to be a UConn fan? You appear to want our beloved Lady Vols to remain average and not making a Final Four ever again with Holly as coach.

Talk about :crazy:

GoLadyVols!

You clearly haven't been reading the threads, when was the last time we made it to a final four? And at least 2 or 3 of those years after our last appearance Pat was still running things.

I commend Holly for not stooping to the measures that some of these other programs are doing to land recruits in an effort to make a final four and I am also happy that she is maintaining the core traditions that Pat has established and I want to see her successful and if she isn't we move on and I am okay with that as well.

Clearly you have wanted her head for a long time and nothing she does would be satisfying to you, so how about you stay away from the forums and the program until she is gone and then return because clearly you would rather see us lose and be horrible so that she could be replaced

 

[mlindsay]

Summitt won 8 national titles: I think that ensures lifetime job stability. Having said that, Summitt couldn't coach team offense. The reason UConn went roaring past us both when PS was coaching UT and since she stepped down is that Geno is excellent at coaching all facets of the game. Summitt totally focused on defense and rebounding, and our offense went in the toilet for the last decade of her tenure--and since. Poor shooting, poor assist/turnover ratio, etc.--it's been discussed. UConn defends and rebounds like we did in our salad years--and pours in the points. PS was 0-4 against Geno in National Title games specifically because our offense was crappy and his was better.

I am negative about Warlick precisely because we will never get back to the top with her. That ought to be obvious by now. All we're doing is wasting time and watching our program's pedigree fade. The rest of you apparently want the Vols to remain mediocre for, what, another five years, ten years? You think pixies are going to sprinkle magic dust on Holly and turn her into a smart, strong, good coach this year? Get real. It is the Warlick supporters who are hurting the program. :blink:

I am a Tennessee supporter, I want to see Tennessee successful and for many of you claiming to want to see the same thing you words aren't saying it. Do I think she is a mediocre coach (yes) and I have said it many of these threads but I also had to check myself and realize that me wanting to see Holly replaced is me wanting to see my Lady Vols fail and I don't want that. If she should be replaced that is fine if it is in the greater good for Tennessee but for many of you to be calling for her head and wishing the team to fail before we even see what the team can potentially be in the fall is crazy.

Geno had a team last year that everyone said would struggle, he didn't have a post presence, and he had a 5'11" Wing player decide that she wouldn't be denied, sure they didn't win it all but they were a shot away from possibly winning a title with a team that folk said would be impossible for him to do.

At this very moment we don't know what might happen so to call the season a wash because 3 players exited and a coach decided to take a position that came about in the place she grew up and love how can that be placed on Holly.

At the end of the season she stated if people didn't want to be here they could leave and some took her up on that offer, now lets see what she does with players who are going to "buy" in to what she is trying to do.

 

[Ace]

who is the Lady Vols S&C coach ?

Lee Taylor
http://www.utsports.com/sports/w-baskbl/mtt/lee_taylor_864575.html

 

[Besti]

Maybe you need to be a UConn fan? You appear to want our beloved Lady Vols to remain average and not making a Final Four ever again with Holly as coach.

Talk about :crazy:

GoLadyVols!

He'd probably be very happy being a uconn fan. They took eleven years to lose what Holly's lost in 3 years plus they won 4 National Championships and 2 Final 4s since Holly's been coach.

 

[xanamanax]

a powerful's men's program would have never hired her in the FIRST PLACE. She spent most of her coaching career here as the 2nd assistant, cheerleader for the players. She got this job because she was tight with Summitt--period. Two Elite Eights? Whoop-dee-do: You forget this team has had a LOT of talent--more talent than all but one or two programs in the country, if that. For a program with out talent, getting to the Sweet 16 isn't that hard--or should't be: you beat two major underdogs, often playing at home, and you are in the Sweet 16. We folded completely in our Elite Eight games, by the way.

Some powerful men's programs have elevated an assistant to the top job so you're wrong there too. Kentucky promoted Joe B. Hall to replace Adolph Rupp. North Carolina moved Bill Guthridge up after Dean Smith retired. Indiana first made Mike Davis interim HC after Bobby Knight was fired and then gave him the job.

 

[LasVegasBill23]

Some powerful men's programs have elevated an assistant to the top job so you're wrong there too. Kentucky promoted Joe B. Hall to replace Adolph Rupp. North Carolina moved Bill Guthridge up after Dean Smith retired. Indiana first made Mike Davis interim HC after Bobby Knight was fired and then gave him the job.

Yeah Earl Bruce, Bob Davie, Bruiser Flint, Craig Esherick, Phil Bengston, the world of sports is littered with them.....

It takes guts to be bold and say what you are looking for in a coach and not cave to someone who has been loyal and waiting their turn, though they may not have the best qualities in terms of skill set

 

[Rickster]

I guess that I don't understand why I am the reason the team is not winning championships. All I am is a fan. I see games when I can. I buy memorabilia from time to time. I contribute to the athletics program. I cheer inside when the team wins and hurt inside when they lose. Because I am a fan, and I want the best for the players and coaches, I will not contribute to the bash fests that many do in this forum. I believe the bashing hurts the team and the opportunities to make the team better through recruiting. Unfortunately, most threads turn into Holly bashing threads because certain posters cannot contribute anything other than negative posts about coaches or players (past and present). Sometimes they turn against fans who elect to be supportive claiming them to be part of the reason the team is not winning enough. I just don't get that part of their frustration.

 

[PineyBluff Vol]

Here's my take on it....all of us here want the program to return to glory as being a perennial top team in women's basketball. There are two ways this is going to happen:
1. Program turns around and flourishes under Holly
2. Program continues to slide, Holly is out and the AD brings on someone new who turns the program around

If Deshields plays next year, we have the same predicament we've had the last 7-8 years where we enter the season as a top 5 team on paper with Final Four potential....but again it's exactly that, on paper. In reality, the teams have had some glimpses of good play, but overall almost every team has come up far short of the enormous expectations the team takes on when they don the LV orange.

If Diamond stayed, realistically I think this is a top 10-15 team that once again falls short of expectations but does take a step forward from last season. This is worst case scenario IMO for 2 reasons:

1. The program isn't really improving since the mediocre effort/attitude is likely still in tact, and the following year you lose Deshields/Nared/Russell. Tennessee wont project to be emerging as a Final Four caliber program and has an uphill battle the following season.

2. The program also isn't tanking which means Holly likely continues coaching for a while longer since on her resume she'll now have 3-4 Elite 8s and 5 Sweet 16s in her 6 year, plus a few SEC titles to toss in there. The AD isn't going to fire her for making 5 Sweet 16s in 6 years with a talented young class on board, so Holly stays and the program will never develop beyond being a consistent Sweet 16 program. All that happens is the problem (coaching) is prolonged.


With Diamond leaving, on paper we look a lot less strong, but I think one of two things will happen:
1. Chemistry improves dramatically and this whole off season lights a fire under everyone's a**. Sure there will be bumps, but a great freshman class has opportunity to play in big games, develop as players and help change the tide of the program. Players like Russell and Nared also get more touches and get a chance to shine. There wont be as much pressure on Holly, and as a result, the team improves and puts together a much better season than we are expecting.

2. More of the same as the last two seasons with poor chemistry and on court effort. Losing Diamond means that we'd probably lose 2-3 more games than we would with her, but another poor season and early NCAA exit means the AD really has to evaluate whether Holly stays or goes. If Holly is the problem and this is what it takes to get her out, this outcome might be the best for the program in the long run. Worst case scenario is we have another underwhelming season and the AD decides to stick with Holly. Only upside to this is that freshmen get opportunity to play and develop their first year.

I'm obviously rooting for option one and honestly believe that with all of the changes, chemistry will be a lot better this upcoming season and players will play through this adversity and help steer the ship in the right direction. That said, I'm more of an optimist and feel this way in most off seasons, so we'll see how it all shakes out.

Either of these options relies on one object that will still be lacking as it has for some time...Lack of a Head Coach!

 

[Trixietrouble]

I personally am okay with losing talent for a net gain in team chemistry. I think it has been a lack of chemistry that has been the biggest detriment to the win/loss record.

Insightful thought from Rickster. Talent has always been present these last couple of years. Team chemistry/team-first attitude was not.

 

[Trixietrouble]

Here's my take on it....all of us here want the program to return to glory as being a perennial top team in women's basketball. There are two ways this is going to happen:
1. Program turns around and flourishes under Holly
2. Program continues to slide, Holly is out and the AD brings on someone new who turns the program around

If Deshields plays next year, we have the same predicament we've had the last 7-8 years where we enter the season as a top 5 team on paper with Final Four potential....but again it's exactly that, on paper. In reality, the teams have had some glimpses of good play, but overall almost every team has come up far short of the enormous expectations the team takes on when they don the LV orange.

If Diamond stayed, realistically I think this is a top 10-15 team that once again falls short of expectations but does take a step forward from last season. This is worst case scenario IMO for 2 reasons:

1. The program isn't really improving since the mediocre effort/attitude is likely still in tact, and the following year you lose Deshields/Nared/Russell. Tennessee wont project to be emerging as a Final Four caliber program and has an uphill battle the following season.

2. The program also isn't tanking which means Holly likely continues coaching for a while longer since on her resume she'll now have 3-4 Elite 8s and 5 Sweet 16s in her 6 year, plus a few SEC titles to toss in there. The AD isn't going to fire her for making 5 Sweet 16s in 6 years with a talented young class on board, so Holly stays and the program will never develop beyond being a consistent Sweet 16 program. All that happens is the problem (coaching) is prolonged.


With Diamond leaving, on paper we look a lot less strong, but I think one of two things will happen:
1. Chemistry improves dramatically and this whole off season lights a fire under everyone's a**. Sure there will be bumps, but a great freshman class has opportunity to play in big games, develop as players and help change the tide of the program. Players like Russell and Nared also get more touches and get a chance to shine. There wont be as much pressure on Holly, and as a result, the team improves and puts together a much better season than we are expecting.

2. More of the same as the last two seasons with poor chemistry and on court effort. Losing Diamond means that we'd probably lose 2-3 more games than we would with her, but another poor season and early NCAA exit means the AD really has to evaluate whether Holly stays or goes. If Holly is the problem and this is what it takes to get her out, this outcome might be the best for the program in the long run. Worst case scenario is we have another underwhelming season and the AD decides to stick with Holly. Only upside to this is that freshmen get opportunity to play and develop their first year.

I'm obviously rooting for option one and honestly believe that with all of the changes, chemistry will be a lot better this upcoming season and players will play through this adversity and help steer the ship in the right direction. That said, I'm more of an optimist and feel this way in most off seasons, so we'll see how it all shakes out.

Very good analysis of the current situation.

 

[Smallvol#1]

I guess that I don't understand why I am the reason the team is not winning championships. All I am is a fan. I see games when I can. I buy memorabilia from time to time. I contribute to the athletics program. I cheer inside when the team wins and hurt inside when they lose. Because I am a fan, and I want the best for the players and coaches, I will not contribute to the bash fests(.) that many do in this forum. I believe the bashing hurts the team and the opportunities to make the team better through recruiting. Unfortunately, most threads turn into Holly bashing threads because certain posters cannot contribute anything other than negative posts about coaches or players (past and present). Sometimes they turn against fans who (I) elect to be supportive claiming them to be part of the reason (of) the team(.) is not winning enough. I just don't get that part of their frustration.

Excellent post. This could be a good start for a LV Credo.

I added stuff in (), Rickster.

 

[Ladyvolfan4ever]

I guess that I don't understand why I am the reason the team is not winning championships. All I am is a fan. I see games when I can. I buy memorabilia from time to time. I contribute to the athletics program. I cheer inside when the team wins and hurt inside when they lose. Because I am a fan, and I want the best for the players and coaches, I will not contribute to the bash fests that many do in this forum. I believe the bashing hurts the team and the opportunities to make the team better through recruiting. Unfortunately, most threads turn into Holly bashing threads because certain posters cannot contribute anything other than negative posts about coaches or players (past and present). Sometimes they turn against fans who elect to be supportive claiming them to be part of the reason the team is not winning enough. I just don't get that part of their frustration.

I couldn't have said it better myself. 💯💯

 

[volnationnj]

I guess that I don't understand why I am the reason the team is not winning championships. All I am is a fan. I see games when I can. I buy memorabilia from time to time. I contribute to the athletics program. I cheer inside when the team wins and hurt inside when they lose. Because I am a fan, and I want the best for the players and coaches, I will not contribute to the bash fests that many do in this forum. I believe the bashing hurts the team and the opportunities to make the team better through recruiting. Unfortunately, most threads turn into Holly bashing threads because certain posters cannot contribute anything other than negative posts about coaches or players (past and present). Sometimes they turn against fans who elect to be supportive claiming them to be part of the reason the team is not winning enough. I just don't get that part of their frustration.

Allow me to attempt an explanation.
You are obviously a dedicated LVF.
Others, even those with radically different viewpoints, are also dedicated Lady Vol fans. You will never get a fan base to agree on everything even in the best of times.
(And I dare say that, considering recent events, we are a long way from the best of times).
What those fans (The ones who want a coaching change, myself included) see is a team with the talent to beat a ND and a SC yet with the total lack of focus that enables Alabama to beat us 3 times in one year. (How is that possible ?)
We see a team full of all Americans lose 24 games over the last 2 years.
We see a steady decline in results and a consistent underperforming by a team that has been a top 10, if not a top 5, pick in pre-season polls every year that Holly has coached the team.
We think the problem(s) are so obvious
that we can't believe that every one else doesn't see it also. This last point is probably due to personality traits (Idealists vs Realists).
That frustration leads to squabbles and personal attacks among LVF's. (Not excusing that behavior, just offering an explanation).
All LV fans want to see the team return to the top of Wcbb. There's just a difference of opinion on what the best method would be in getting them there.

 

[Rickster]

Okay, but this does not explain why Holly supporters are hurting the team.

 

[1CHATTVOL]

Yes, he was and carried that dissatisfaction over into the Post-Pat era. This has been going on for a long, long time. 99% negative for as long as I remember.

But that's because he was educated in the North. He's far superior to us.

 

[1CHATTVOL]

A lot better than it is now. Pat never lost 26 games in 2 seasons.

Pat also never coached The Diamond Loves Te'a $hit Show.

See attached chart showing Holly's record before DD&TC and after. 30-win season, multiple SEC titles, #1 seed,
Elite 8.

You be the judge.

 

[1CHATTVOL]

After three years? Ha Ha Ha! That's why you have no credibility! Her won-loss records at that point were 27-8, 29-6, and 30-6. Her accomplishments were one SEC tournament title, two regular season SEC titles, and two Elite Eight appearances. But you say a powerful men's program would have fired her for those results. The only word for that is delusional.

But wait, Armchair is northern-educated. Obviously, his negative opinion is far superior to your actual facts and circumstances.

 

[volnationnj]

Okay, but this does not explain why Holly supporters are hurting the team.

It's probably (my opinion here) because those who wish to see a change in coaches feel that a groundswell of opposition to the current regime will hasten it's removal.
How much of an impact a fan base has on decision making can be debated.
It's similar to measuring the impact a forum has on recruits.

 

[1CHATTVOL]

Yeah Earl Bruce, Bob Davie, Bruiser Flint, Craig Esherick, Phil Bengston, the world of sports is littered with them.....

It takes guts to be bold and say what you are looking for in a coach and not cave to someone who has been loyal and waiting their turn, though they may not have the best qualities in terms of skill set

You act as if it is just a matter of snapping one's fingers and making a Summitt or Geno appear at the end of the bench.

You might throw million$ at a top coach from another school or try to find a promising up & comer. But it's still a gamble. You don't know how a new coach will do until afterwards.

UT is not going to spend millions on a women's basketball coach. HW's salary is less than half that of her competitors.

This is an employment matter not a fan matter. If you'd like to "Fahr Holly", have guts and be bold. Email Athletic Director John Currie. He has an open door email account just for you.

 

[1CHATTVOL]

I guess that I don't understand why I am the reason the team is not winning championships. All I am is a fan. I see games when I can. I buy memorabilia from time to time. I contribute to the athletics program. I cheer inside when the team wins and hurt inside when they lose. Because I am a fan, and I want the best for the players and coaches, I will not contribute to the bash fests that many do in this forum. I believe the bashing hurts the team and the opportunities to make the team better through recruiting. Unfortunately, most threads turn into Holly bashing threads because certain posters cannot contribute anything other than negative posts about coaches or players (past and present). Sometimes they turn against fans who elect to be supportive claiming them to be part of the reason the team is not winning enough. I just don't get that part of their frustration.

Thank you!

 

[volnationnj]

Pat also never coached The Diamond Loves Te'a $hit Show.

See attached chart showing Holly's record before DD&TC and after. 30-win season, multiple SEC titles, #1 seed,
Elite 8.

You be the judge.

You're missing the main point. Pat would NEVER have let it turn into (as you describe it) The Diamond Loves Te'a $hit Show.

You're describing Holly as an innocent passenger on an out of control bus.
As if she was powerless to do anything to change the course the team has been on.
Who was it that signed DD as a transfer and recruited TC ?
Who was it that allowed team chemistry to sink to the point where the players are physically fighting each other while being recorded by another player ?
It may or may not be that DD and TC are primarily responsible for the poor results of the last two years.
However, it is Holly, as head coach, who is held accountable for those poor results. It happened under her watch.
She is the one who takes the fall.

When I have time, I'm going back through the archives to see what everyone's opinion was when it was first announced that DD would be transferring to Tennessee. It should make for interesting reading.

 

[1CHATTVOL]

You're missing the main point. Pat would NEVER have let it turn into (as you describe it) The Diamond Loves Te'a $hit Show.

You're describing Holly as an innocent passenger on an out of control bus.
As if she was powerless to do anything to change the course the team has been on.
Who was it that signed DD as a transfer and recruited TC ?
Who was it that allowed team chemistry to sink to the point where the players are physically fighting each other while being recorded by another player ?
It may or may not be that DD and TC are primarily responsible for the poor results of the last two years.
However, it is Holly, as head coach, who is held accountable for those poor results. It happened under her watch.
She is the one who takes the fall.

When I have time, I'm going back through the archives to see what everyone's opinion was when it was first announced that DD would be transferring to Tennessee. It should make for interesting reading.

Holly knows she's responsible. The level of cancerous effect on team chemistry could not reasonably be forseen. But yes, she's ultimately responsible for the mess.

My point: look at Holly's record before DD&TC and then after. Lemme know.

Oh, and thanks for playing the "Pat would've never" ghost of Pat Summitt card. Well,Pat sure let the 2009 team stink it up. Worst team in LV history... with a slew of All Americans... coming off back to back nattys. Sometimes things happen...and we ALL take the FALL.

 

[T_Vol376]

Pat also never coached The Diamond Loves Te'a $hit Show.

See attached chart showing Holly's record before DD&TC and after. 30-win season, multiple SEC titles, #1 seed,
Elite 8.

You be the judge.

Thank you for this post...especially "The Diamond Loves Te'a $hit Show" part. That sums it up perfectly!!!!!!

 

[T_Vol376]

Holly knows she's responsible. The level of cancerous effect on team chemistry could not reasonably be forseen. But yes, she's ultimately responsible for the mess.

My point: look at Holly's record before DD&TC and then after. Lemme know.

Oh, and thanks for playing the "Pat would've never" ghost of Pat Summitt card. Well,Pat sure let the 2009 team stink it up. Worst team in LV history... with a slew of All Americans... coming off back to back nattys. Sometimes things happen...and we ALL take the FALL.

Another great post, 1CV!!! 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻