The Green New Deal

#51
#51
82_VOL_83 said:
I wish one person would ask her just off the cuff how much seal levels would rise if the entire arctic ice cap melted.
Click to expand...

Followed up by "so why doesn't your iced tea flow over the top of the glass when the ice melts". Or did you actually mean "seal" rather than "sea level"?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 82_VOL_83
#52
#52
SpaceCoastVol said:
No it didn't. In Vermont, they didn't produce their own power, thereby reducing their emissions. They bought energy from outside the state, but since it was from Quebec or NY, it didn't go down as Vermont's problems. Typical .gov 'accounting'.

Kind of like saying if I don't drive my car anymore but Uber everywhere, MY carbon emissions go to zero.
Click to expand...
That is exactly what people say though. That is exactly how the whole carbon tax thing works as well.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Orange_Vol1321 and AM64
#53
#53
AM64 said:
Have to disagree with you on that one. For example, I can't see one location providing subsidized power to another. Tennessee has had lower power rates than many places because of hydro power, Tennessee doesn't have some advantages of locations with ocean access, and Tennessee hasn't blown up dams so the salmon can roam free. Strengths and weakness determine local economies, and I don't agree with increasing electric power costs in some regions to subsidize CA flakiness and overpopulation, as an example. It's supply and demand; why sell power to TN customers at $4/unit
when you can sell it elsewhere for $6/unit ... depriving TN of industry for that in higher cost but less energy sufficient areas?

There are (and always will be) high losses in the transmission of electric power over long lines. If one region can't produce power, it doesn't make a lot of sense to ineffectively move electric power there at the cost to the detriment of industry and other economic factors elsewhere. If you can't build cars in CA because of power and other constraints, build them elsewhere ... economic factors have to outweigh overcrowded beaches.

One thing we are proving on a daily basis is the danger of hacking by both people for fun and games and foreign interests for far more sinister purposes. If your local electric utility can turn off your power, so can the Chinese. If regional power distributors can wheel and deal power, so can the Russians. It's a risky game, and not one we should be putting all our eggs in.
Click to expand...

Okay, valid point. I was thinking more along the lines of a decentralized power grid that won't suffer from cascade failure if one portion was to go down. Or your sinister purposes as you stated. I do like the idea of more energy efficient grids, though I don't think the tech (or price) has quite caught up with that yet. Copper is still king.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 82_VOL_83 and AM64
#57
#57
Grand Vol said:
Okay, valid point. I was thinking more along the lines of a decentralized power grid that won't suffer from cascade failure if one portion was to go down. Or your sinister purposes as you stated. I do like the idea of more energy efficient grids, though I don't think the tech (or price) has quite caught up with that yet. Copper is still king.
Click to expand...

I know, and it's a complicated issue because we do move oil, gasoline, and natural gas by pipeline. If a complete move to solar and wind energy came about, CA might just be one of the suppliers rather than an importer of electric power, and TN might wind up with much higher electric power rates. There really is quite a cost in electric power transmission that's going to be difficult to get around, and there are potentially high environmental costs and risks in both overhead and underground power lines (earthquakes and fires). One of the biggest obstacles (generally never addressed) is that of backup generation because infinite electrical storage doesn't seem likely in the near term ... if ever. Backup generation is expensive because it's the normal cost plus that of a facility sitting idle but manned and ready to go; labor and capital costs for idle plants do add up significantly.
 
#59
#59
AM64 said:
I know, and it's a complicated issue because we do move oil, gasoline, and natural gas by pipeline. If a complete move to solar and wind energy came about, CA might just be one of the suppliers rather than an importer of electric power, and TN might wind up with much higher electric power rates. There really is quite a cost in electric power transmission that's going to be difficult to get around, and there are potentially high environmental costs and risks in both overhead and underground power lines (earthquakes and fires). One of the biggest obstacles (generally never addressed) is that of backup generation because infinite electrical storage doesn't seem likely in the near term ... if ever. Backup generation is expensive because it's the normal cost plus that of a facility sitting idle but manned and ready to go; labor and capital costs for idle plants do add up significantly.
Click to expand...

To tear down and rebuild every building it would be Trillions.

To run infrastructure so that every state could be powered off of sustainable energy would be Trillions.

To run a high speed rail so that you could get around the world would be Trillions.


Im just commenting on those three and leaving the rest out and we're already way over their budget.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tennvols77 and AM64
#62
#62
SIAP, but this gets me.

(E) upgrading all existing buildings in the 19 United States and building new buildings to 20 achieve maximal energy efficiency, water effi21 ciency, safety, affordability, comfort, and dura22 bility, including through electrification;
Click to expand...

it costs about 400+ dollars a square foot to do what she is describing. what she is describing is what we call a "living building", Georgia Tech is building one right now so this a current number.
A typical single family house is going to be around 125/150 a square foot, as it is now.

she is at least tripling the cost.

renovation costs could be anything. it could be more expensive than building new, and it could be cheaper 50 a squarefoot.

but considering we ran out of what has got to be the most available product ever, concrete, I would say her pipe dream is literally impossible in just getting enough materials. if we can run of concrete, we can run out of lights/sensors, insulation, solar panels, locally sourced renewable structural materials. The list is staggering that she wants to do.

also the water efficiency thing just isn't there yet for wide spread usage. it can be done, but you have to be devoted to it. way too easy for things to go wrong, and people getting seriously sick. you practically have to hire a full time expert to run that stuff for a building. Georgia Tech has a whole team. no way joe blow home owner is going to do that.

for the record there are 14 existing "Living Buildings" in the world. the whole world, and she wants to make the entire US this way. in 10 years.

this isn't even looking at labor, or permitting. and unless AOC has some genius idea this is going to create mountains of waste when you rip apart ALL the old buildings.

included in that labor you have to take into consideration ALL the experts that will take. this isn't just low skill labor, she is talking what is essentially cutting edge stuff.
 
  • Like
Reactions: AM64
#63
#63
LouderVol said:
SIAP, but this gets me.



it costs about 400+ dollars a square foot to do what she is describing. what she is describing is what we call a "living building", Georgia Tech is building one right now so this a current number.
A typical single family house is going to be around 125/150 a square foot, as it is now.

she is at least tripling the cost.

renovation costs could be anything. it could be more expensive than building new, and it could be cheaper 50 a squarefoot.

but considering we ran out of what has got to be the most available product ever, concrete, I would say her pipe dream is literally impossible in just getting enough materials. if we can run of concrete, we can run out of lights/sensors, insulation, solar panels, locally sourced renewable structural materials. The list is staggering that she wants to do.

also the water efficiency thing just isn't there yet for wide spread usage. it can be done, but you have to be devoted to it. way too easy for things to go wrong, and people getting seriously sick. you practically have to hire a full time expert to run that stuff for a building. Georgia Tech has a whole team. no way joe blow home owner is going to do that.

for the record there are 14 existing "Living Buildings" in the world. the whole world, and she wants to make the entire US this way. in 10 years.

this isn't even looking at labor, or permitting. and unless AOC has some genius idea this is going to create mountains of waste when you rip apart ALL the old buildings.

included in that labor you have to take into consideration ALL the experts that will take. this isn't just low skill labor, she is talking what is essentially cutting edge stuff.
Click to expand...
You reminded me of Back to School.

Way to go my architect brother!
 
  • Like
Reactions: AM64
#65
#65
volinbham said:
If we really want to invest in solving energy issues then we should be doubling down on nuclear with an emphasis on containment and disposal technologies. It is the alternative energy with the most potential and it's not even close with the others.
Click to expand...

That and natural gas.
 
#67
#67
LouderVol said:
SIAP, but this gets me.



it costs about 400+ dollars a square foot to do what she is describing. what she is describing is what we call a "living building", Georgia Tech is building one right now so this a current number.
A typical single family house is going to be around 125/150 a square foot, as it is now.

she is at least tripling the cost.

renovation costs could be anything. it could be more expensive than building new, and it could be cheaper 50 a squarefoot.

but considering we ran out of what has got to be the most available product ever, concrete, I would say her pipe dream is literally impossible in just getting enough materials. if we can run of concrete, we can run out of lights/sensors, insulation, solar panels, locally sourced renewable structural materials. The list is staggering that she wants to do.

also the water efficiency thing just isn't there yet for wide spread usage. it can be done, but you have to be devoted to it. way too easy for things to go wrong, and people getting seriously sick. you practically have to hire a full time expert to run that stuff for a building. Georgia Tech has a whole team. no way joe blow home owner is going to do that.

for the record there are 14 existing "Living Buildings" in the world. the whole world, and she wants to make the entire US this way. in 10 years.

this isn't even looking at labor, or permitting. and unless AOC has some genius idea this is going to create mountains of waste when you rip apart ALL the old buildings.

included in that labor you have to take into consideration ALL the experts that will take. this isn't just low skill labor, she is talking what is essentially cutting edge stuff.
Click to expand...
When did the world run out of concrete?
 
  • Like
Reactions: CagleMtnVol and AM64
#68
#68
ClearwaterVol said:
Gonna be fun to watch democrats walk back their support of this resolution. Some good ideas scattered amongst the garbage.
Click to expand...

Remember, they're all trying to out-liberal each other currying favor for that 2020 nomination.

Not even realizing they push far more people to vote for the GOP, Independent or sit at home and not vote for anyone.
 
  • Like
Reactions: AM64 and FLVOL_79
#69
#69
Grand Vol said:
Remember, they're all trying to out-liberal each other currying favor for that 2020 nomination.

Not even realizing they push far more people to vote for the GOP, Independent or sit at home and not vote for anyone.
Click to expand...

This one is over the top
 
#74
#74
That sucks the Tweet about "Nancy Pelosi thought AOC's Green New Deal was great and put it on the fridge for everyone to see" got deleted.
 
  • Like
Reactions: AM64 and FLVOL_79
New posts
You must log in or register to reply here.

VN Store



Back
Top