The Health Care Debate is OVER

#126
#126
KiffinKiller said:
They're writing it into law as a fundamental right for all Canadian citizens - so no PM can change the system afterwards.
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Brilliant!

I'm sure Canada is a signatory on the Universal Declaration of Human Rights which all states health care as a fundamental human right.
 
#127
#127
utgibbs said:
I do try to entertain as well as inform. :hi:

Unfortunately, for the bold above, I've proven time after time I'm far from a failed prognosticator regarding real events in the real world. To take just two recent examples:

1. Fukushima - almost every detail from day one.

2. The GM sell back would be at a net loss to the taxpayer.

Many, many others as well. It's too bad I wasn't on here for the start of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. No one, as far as I can tell, has even come close.
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Two groundbreaking predictions! Forget Ms. Cleo, you are far superior
 
#128
#128
KiffinKiller said:
So Canada has been providing substandard care to all their citizens for 30+ years?
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I know a woman from Canada, who is now a US citizen, that had access to that wonderful socialized healthcare system. They completely screwed up treating her, and it's just now that she's getting the proper treatment here in the US. Socialized healthcare sucks major arse.
 
#129
#129
g8terh8ter_eric said:
I know a woman from Canada, who is now a US citizen, that had access to that wonderful socialized healthcare system. They completely screwed up treating her, and it's just now that she's getting the proper treatment here in the US. Socialized healthcare sucks major arse.
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You could say the same about a million people here in the US. Compelling argument tho....
 
#130
#130
KiffinKiller said:
You could say the same about a million people here in the US. Compelling argument tho....
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Dude, they did a hysterectomy on her, didn't take out everything when they went in, and then proceeded to screw up her hormone replacement and that gave her blood clots, and this went on for a long time and multiple doctors up there. It took one visit down her to figure out what was going on, and now she's on the road to getting her life back. There are also a TON of people who come from Canada to get treatment in the US, due to rationed health care up there. Anyone who advocates for socialized health care, should go live in one of the countries that do have it, then you will see how much it sucks.
 
#131
#131
g8terh8ter_eric said:
Dude, they did a hysterectomy on her, didn't take out everything when they went in, and then proceeded to screw up her hormone replacement and that gave her blood clots, and this went on for a long time and multiple doctors up there. It took one visit down her to figure out what was going on, and now she's on the road to getting her life back. There are also a TON of people who come from Canada to get treatment in the US, due to rationed health care up there. Anyone who advocates for socialized health care, should go live in one of the countries that do have it, then you will see how much it sucks.
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I feel terrible for your friend.
That being said, I have family in Canada and they have never had a problem like this. Two grandparents with cancer and my dad had a hip replacement - all treated with the utmost care.
 
#132
#132
lylsmorr said:
Two groundbreaking predictions! Forget Ms. Cleo, you are far superior
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I also noted these two because of the extent other posted said I would be wrong, wrong, wrong.

Again, the real world told a different story, and the real world always wins.
 
#135
#135
Staying healthy is the best way to avoid health care problems. OTC medication cures 95% of all ailments. Prescription drugs are for people with depleted immune systems. Over usage of antibiotics is a leading cause of a weak immune system.

I view hospitals as vehicle "repair" garages in the way something could come out in worse shape than it went in.

As for the health care debate many components are from Nixon, Clinton and Romney supervised drafts and versions.
 
#137
#137
Vols45 said:
Staying healthy is the best way to avoid health care problems. OTC medication cures 95% of all ailments. Prescription drugs are for people with depleted immune systems. Over usage of antibiotics is a leading cause of a weak immune system.

I view hospitals as vehicle "repair" garages in the way something could come out in worse shape than it went in.

As for the health care debate many components are from Nixon, Clinton and Romney supervised drafts and versions.
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The way our healthcare is is a result of 70 years of both free market development and government regulation.

Hospitals obviously do a lot of good things, but with the way it is, there is more financial incentive (both for purposes of revenue and over-treating or over-diagnosing to avoid malpractice) to overdo it rather than tell somebody what the deal is and to just go to Safeway or whatever and get some generic OTC meds.

That is one thing that is neat about the way the NHS and some others work, the providers have more incentive to guide people to take good care of themselves and thus keep their utilization of care down and thus reduce national health care spending. Obviously that can go too far in that direction, but much more often than not the result is good.

As for wait times and horror stories, other countries have issues but we need to take a look in the mirror before we pass judgment. The US generally has the best specialists in the world, but the fact is we're not really better than anybody else when it comes to denied claims, 'rationed care' etc. unless you're loaded enough to pay for treatment out of pocket.

The debate in this thread seems to be more about how to pay for healthcare, when that's not the actual issue at hand (although it has a lot to do with it) -- the issue is the cost of the care itself and why we pay many times over what people in other countries pay for the same treatments and same levels of service.

The US is on the managed care train, and there is absolutely no way off at this point. People need to get on board with how the system needs to work if we're going to see this thing through.
 
#138
#138
milohimself said:
The way our healthcare is is a result of 70 years of both free market development and government regulation.

Hospitals obviously do a lot of good things, but with the way it is, there is more financial incentive (both for purposes of revenue and over-treating or over-diagnosing to avoid malpractice) to overdo it rather than tell somebody what the deal is and to just go to Safeway or whatever and get some generic OTC meds.

That is one thing that is neat about the way the NHS and some others work, the providers have more incentive to guide people to take good care of themselves and thus keep their utilization of care down and thus reduce national health care spending. Obviously that can go too far in that direction, but much more often than not the result is good.

As for wait times and horror stories, other countries have issues but we need to take a look in the mirror before we pass judgment. The US generally has the best specialists in the world, but the fact is we're not really better than anybody else when it comes to denied claims, 'rationed care' etc. unless you're loaded enough to pay for treatment out of pocket.

The debate in this thread seems to be more about how to pay for healthcare, when that's not the actual issue at hand (although it has a lot to do with it) -- the issue is the cost of the care itself and why we pay many times over what people in other countries pay for the same treatments and same levels of service.

The US is on the managed care train, and there is absolutely no way off at this point. People need to get on board with how the system needs to work if we're going to see this thing through.
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Here. Here. We have the best doctors and facilities in the world - but our gouged and ruined financially to use them. Our medical insurance companies pay people whose sole duties are to keep us from using insurance.
 
#139
#139
Did I read correctly that if a "market failure" is addressed by the government then information asymmetry no longer exists?

Did I read correctly that people never want to use health care - it is a product no one wants so having unlimited access to it is not a problem since people really don't want use it?

Did I read correctly that there is no worry about doctor shortages since they are naturally altruistic and would be fine working for very little pay or in a charity role?

Did I read correctly that a single payer system where a person must pay via some type of taxes and has no choice in the system other than use/don't use represents more "freedom"?

I have got to get a look at Gibb's backyard - it is a strange and magical place.
 
#147
#147
utgibbs said:
Obviously not since their health outcomes are better than ours.

As for every other single payer health system as well.

Better care, lower costs. Win, win.
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I liked the health outcomes from Canada when I went to Montreal and did my very best to buy the city out of all their bottles of Tylenol-1's.

Man, and they were cheap too.
 
#148
#148
utgibbs said:
No, we are scheduled for bankruptcy because of spiraling health costs. The best way to combat this, according to the CBO and bourgeois economics, is to institute Medicare for All.

I too have lost hope of any Social Security benefits, mostly because of Capital's insatiable need to get its paws on it and gamble it away, as they have done with their own retirement plans ad infinitum.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you just said that the best way for the government to not spend money is by spending more money.

Solid analysis.
 
#149
#149
volinbham said:
Did I read correctly that if a "market failure" is addressed by the government then information asymmetry no longer exists?

Yes, of course. Need to get your economic textbooks out. There are no longer buyers and sellers. The collected risk is pooled. It becomes a MOOT point, as I explained clearly to you before.

Did I read correctly that people never want to use health care - it is a product no one wants so having unlimited access to it is not a problem since people really don't want use it?

Last time I checked, no one wants to get sick or injured. Even bourgeois economists don't argue this. But I should have known, YOU would have to argue it. :crazy:

Moreover, if you want to get into real economics, let's. The AMA is well aware that their profession has monopoly power. People choose a doctor, and then, unless doctor eats a baby, they stick with him / her. In other words, even bourgeois economists admit health is a MARKET FAILURE.

Did I read correctly that there is no worry about doctor shortages since they are naturally altruistic and would be fine working for very little pay or in a charity role?

People who choose the medical profession do seem, in large numbers, to be altruistic. However, it doesn't matter. No shortages of doctors in single payer systems. The real world proves you wrong again. In fact, Cuba exports doctors they have so many.

Did I read correctly that a single payer system where a person must pay via some type of taxes and has no choice in the system other than use/don't use represents more "freedom"?

Of course they have more freedom, especially in the Friedman sense. Their economic choices are far, far greater as they pay far, far less. We have already discussed, and proven, their is MORE rationing in our system and far less choice.

I have got to get a look at Gibb's backyard - it is a strange and magical place.
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Actually, the "strange and magical place" turns out - as we see again - to be YOUR backyard which seems to swerve away from reality every time it comes close to it. :)
 
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#150
#150
kidbourbon said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you just said that the best way for the government to not spend money is by spending more money.

Solid analysis.
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You stand corrected then.

Medicare for All would control the rate of growth, spending less money over time AND delivering better care than the current system. Even the CBO and bourgeois economists recognize that.

The best way for individuals to have more economic freedom is to institute Medicare for All. That way, more money goes into the pockets of American individuals.

It has and always will be win, win.
 
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