The Health Care Debate is OVER

#176
#176
utgibbs said:
Wrong.

There is NO demand. People don't WANT to need health care. People want to be healthy and injury free. It is not buying bauxite or bread. Do the UT student athletes "shop around" when they pull a hammy on the practice field? When they get a concussion in a game?

This is simply crazy talk from a man I know is smarter than this.

Your statement IS quite telling. It is a demonstration of cognitive dissonance. Even your bourgeois economists recognize health care is not a market. Your own experts say it just ain't so.

It's not just me saying it is not a market - it is YOUR bourgeois economists.
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You wouldn't know an economic text from an X Men comic book. You think there is no demand for brakes? How many of those folks WANT them? Presumably, there is no demand for tampons either, since nobody wants to use them.

Look, you've proven repeatedly that you're an economics clown, but to use this to try and belittle a guy who clearly know some is classic Gibbsian delusional idiocy. Congrats - youre you.
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#177
#177
utgibbs said:
Wrong.

There is NO demand. People don't WANT to need health care. People want to be healthy and injury free. It is not buying bauxite or bread. Do the UT student athletes "shop around" when they pull a hammy on the practice field? When they get a concussion in a game?

This is simply crazy talk from a man I know is smarter than this.

Your statement IS quite telling. It is a demonstration of cognitive dissonance. Even your bourgeois economists recognize health care is not a market. Your own experts say it just ain't so.

It's not just me saying it is not a market - it is YOUR bourgeois economists.
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You don't understand the notion of demand.

You don't understand what a market is.
 
#178
#178
Help me I'm starving to death. 6st woman with paralysed stomach refused life-saving operation | Mail Online

A young woman who is starving to death after being diagnosed with a paralysed stomach has been told that NHS bosses refuse to fund an operation to save her.

Rudi Hargreaves, 22, has shrunk from a healthy 10st to a skeletal 5st 10lb after being diagnosed with the crippling condition last year.

Within weeks of being diagnosed with gastroparesis, Rudi found her size 12 clothes were hanging off her - as her stomach became unable to digest food at a normal rate.

The condition can be treated with a £14,000 operation to fit a gastric pacemaker - although this is still considered to be an experimental treatment.

But health chiefs have refused to fund the surgery, saying 'insufficient supporting information' has been provided by her GP.
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efficiency
 
#180
#180
Cuba would have squared her away, however inefficient that whole living thing might have been.
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#181
#181
GreveHaller said:
you sure you're not the one that doesnt understand what makes a market?

While there is the industry is private, supply and demand does not play a role here. In supply-demand that means you can chose another good if the price seems better. You cannot in the HC field. Your employer offers you HC and at a better rate than you can get it off the street but its with 1 suppliers maybe 2 if youre lucky. If you're married you might have another choice or two but in the end your choices are limited. You cant tell your employer you want United Healthcare when all they have is Blue Cross.

HI is nothing more than a single payer system divided into a few seperate entities. The process is still the same: pay one group a consistant amount of money and when you need something paid, they'll do it. Its nothing more than a pre paid credit card.
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You actually have a good point here. The market would be much healthier, competitive, and cost effective if the gov't did not interfere by favoring employer based insurance plans. Lack of gov't involvement is NOT the problem in healthcare... it is that there is already too much gov't interference. Between regulation, price fixing, perverse counter-market tax incentives, a host of loopholes designed as political favors,.... and myriad of other meddlings... gov't to a large measure IS the problem.
 
#182
#182
sjt18 said:
You actually have a good point here. The market would be much healthier, competitive, and cost effective if the gov't did not interfere by favoring employer based insurance plans. Lack of gov't involvement is NOT the problem in healthcare... it is that there is already too much gov't interference. Between regulation, price fixing, perverse counter-market tax incentives, a host of loopholes designed as political favors,.... and myriad of other meddlings... gov't to a large measure IS the problem.
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I'm afraid not even the greatest bourgeois economists agree with you.

Health care is NOT a market. All NHS systems provide better health outcomes for less cost.
 
#184
#184
volinbham said:
This is like saying a poodle is not a dog because chocolate is yummy.
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That is exactly what some of your dissent sounds like.

It's all real world outside the back door, dude. Kenneth Arrow votes Republican. This is from the most bourgeois of organizations, the OECD. You're arguments are nonsensical to even your bourgeois kin:

health-ex1-490.gif
 
#185
#185
utgibbs said:
I'm afraid not even the greatest bourgeois economists agree with you.

Health care is NOT a market. All NHS systems provide better health outcomes for less cost.
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Truth is truth even if no one believes it. False is false even if everyone believes it... fortunately though, that is nowhere near the case in this discussion.

NHS do not provide better outcomes in any respect. Ours as it exists to cover about 30% of the population drives up costs for everyone.
 
#186
#186
utgibbs said:
That is exactly what some of your dissent sounds like.

It's all real world outside the back door, dude. Kenneth Arrow votes Republican. This is from the most bourgeois of organizations, the OECD. You're arguments are nonsensical to even your bourgeois kin:

health-ex1-490.gif
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Once again (without even vetting your sources which have usually been very biased and loose with the facts) this is an example of TOO much gov't involvement and interference. It also demonstrates rationing and cost shifting by countries with socialized systems.
 
#187
#187
utgibbs said:
That is exactly what some of your dissent sounds like.

It's all real world outside the back door, dude. Kenneth Arrow votes Republican. This is from the most bourgeois of organizations, the OECD. You're arguments are nonsensical to even your bourgeois kin:

health-ex1-490.gif
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Maybe we spend more on HC because we're the fattest country in the world.

Also, in a country where more than half of medical care is paid for by the government you can't in good conscience consider it a capitalistic system.
 
#188
#188
It is more capitalist than any other system in any developed country, and we do have the worst health outcomes of any developed country, however there are a few steps between healthcare delivery and outcomes. Excess crap diet and sedentary lifestyle stand in the way.
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#189
#189
milohimself said:
It is more capitalist than any other system in any developed country, and we do have the worst health outcomes of any developed country, however there are a few steps between healthcare delivery and outcomes. Excess crap diet and sedentary lifestyle stand in the way.
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This.
 
#190
#190
just once, instead of comparing the US to individual EU countries, I'd like to see a comparison of the US vs. another similar sized population group. I don't think there's any valid way you can compare a country of 310 million to a country like Sweden, which has a population of less than 10 million.
 
#191
#191
MG1968 said:
just once, instead of comparing the US to individual EU countries, I'd like to see a comparison of the US vs. another similar sized population group. I don't think there's any valid way you can compare a country of 310 million to a country like Sweden, which has a population of less than 10 million.
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Okay... Then how about every EU country having better health outcomes than the US?

Again, this is in no way a direct indictment on US healthcare delivery, there are many other factors, but the fact is that we do have just about the worst health outcomes of all first world countries.
 
#192
#192
milohimself said:
Okay... Then how about every EU country having better health outcomes than the US?

Again, this is in no way a direct indictment on US healthcare delivery, there are many other factors, but the fact is that we do have just about the worst health outcomes of all first world countries.
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find me a country as fat as america and then compare "health outcomes."
 
#193
#193
what, exactly, does "better health outcomes" mean?

I will accept the fact that many EU populations eat healthier and probably aren't constantly being told by pharmaceutical countries that there is a pill that can cure whatever it is that ails them.

What I won't accept is the notion that an EU-style single-payer system, that is dependent on the taxpayer to fund and the government to administer, would provide a better overall level of healthcare to the US.
 
#194
#194
utgibbs said:
That is exactly what some of your dissent sounds like.

It's all real world outside the back door, dude. Kenneth Arrow votes Republican. This is from the most bourgeois of organizations, the OECD. You're arguments are nonsensical to even your bourgeois kin:

health-ex1-490.gif
Click to expand...

Post all the charts you want. They will never prove that healthcare is not a market because it is by definition a market. Arrow asserted that market mechanisms may not result in the most efficient allocation of resources. He was NOT saying that HC is not a market. It is and always will be - even with the good ole NHS.

Not sure why this is so hard.
 
#195
#195
I have long since come to the conclusion that any discussion of the US health issue is all but rendered moot unless this country's "general" health is heavily weighted. (sorry, pun maybe a little intended)

By most standards our poor have an excess of food. Would anyone here debate that a sedentary lifestyle is more prevalent than not in our current culture? Hell, I'd argue our current health system (not to say it doesn't have it's issues) is in the middle of fighting a pandemic of sorts. Not to get on a soapbox but any trip to Walmart and you will see people that are, for all intents and purposes, slowly killing themselves.
 
#196
#196
hndog609 said:
I have long since come to the conclusion that any discussion of the US health issue is all but rendered moot unless this country's "general" health is heavily weighted. (sorry, pun maybe a little intended)

By most standards our poor have an excess of food. Would anyone here debate that a sedentary lifestyle is more prevalent than not in our current culture? Hell, I'd argue our current health system (not to say it doesn't have it's issues) is in the middle of fighting a pandemic of sorts. Not to get on a soapbox but any trip to Walmart and you will see people that are, for all intents and purposes, slowly killing themselves.
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Agree. As much as we, as a country, have this deep-seeded fear of someone else getting a free pass - we may currently have the laziest country in the world.
 
#197
#197
hndog609 said:
I have long since come to the conclusion that any discussion of the US health issue is all but rendered moot unless this country's "general" health is heavily weighted. (sorry, pun maybe a little intended)

By most standards our poor have an excess of food. Would anyone here debate that a sedentary lifestyle is more prevalent than not in our current culture? Hell, I'd argue our current health system (not to say it doesn't have it's issues) is in the middle of fighting a pandemic of sorts. Not to get on a soapbox but any trip to Walmart and you will see people that are, for all intents and purposes, slowly killing themselves.
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The universal access "magic bullet" is "prevention" - as if that and public health campaigns will alter this behavior in a meaningful way.

Plenty of these folks have access to care but don't use it for prevention now.
 
#198
#198
volinbham said:
The universal access "magic bullet" is "prevention" - as if that and public health campaigns will alter this behavior in a meaningful way.

Plenty of these folks have access to care but don't use it for prevention now.
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I'm trying to imagine a country where a significant chunk of the population really dotes on their sedentary/overeating lifestyle going out of their way to clean up their act once we go single payer.

Maybe an incentive program along the lines of "No knee replacements for anyone considered obese."?
 
#199
#199
droski said:
find me a country as fat as america and then compare "health outcomes."
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Being fat is part of the health outcome.

MG1968 said:
what, exactly, does "better health outcomes" mean?

I will accept the fact that many EU populations eat healthier and probably aren't constantly being told by pharmaceutical countries that there is a pill that can cure whatever it is that ails them.

What I won't accept is the notion that an EU-style single-payer system, that is dependent on the taxpayer to fund and the government to administer, would provide a better overall level of healthcare to the US.
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Citizens of all EU countries, on average, live longer than people in the US. They have far healthier babies than in the US. They lose far less productivity due to illness. In many countries, they get similar or better quality of healthcare with similar or better expediency and similar or better rates of insurance rejection than the vast majority of Americans with private insurance. Advertising by pharmaceutical companies is actually banned in every country in the world except the US and New Zealand, IIRC.

The fact is that there are a number of countries out there with far more socialized medical care industries that do deliver much better health outcomes and overall have far healthier populations than the US, but again, that has to do with much more than delivery. And considering the 40-50million uninsured here prior to the ACA taking full effect, yes, more socialist healthcare delivery systems do work better for the average person. If you live here, you can afford it and you don't have any significant pre-existing conditions and a spotless health background, yeah, you get the best care in the world. But it's not the average or the norm.

And before you start typing up your response, I am not nor have I ever advocated for any significant degree of socialized health care. Partially subsidized -- yes. Socialized, no.
 
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