The Knechtion

#401
#401
bleedingTNorange said:
Who’s the last sub 5’9” guard to go in the first round? I also think it’s unlikely Lanier or Milicic go first round, knecht barely made round 1, the NBA just has an issue drafting older guys (which I disagree with), but all 3 of the players named are “old”.
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Nate Robinson...just 20 short years ago. It happens all the time, right? 😀
 
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#402
#402
bleedingTNorange said:
Who’s the last sub 5’9” guard to go in the first round? I also think it’s unlikely Lanier or Milicic go first round, knecht barely made round 1, the NBA just has an issue drafting older guys (which I disagree with), but all 3 of the players named are “old”.
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Because its a brand new day and hyperbole is fun...the road has been paved. Just trying to be positive thinking. Also the NBA has no issues drafting seniors in first round its drafting them in lottery it has issues with. Trust me I'm very aware I was involved a a heated debate about the topic last season when I said that Knecht would not be drafted in lottery and Edey would. The NBA is very regimented in what they will and wont draft until there is an exception.

1 this years draft is basically Cooper Flagg and everyone else.
2 If Lanier keeps playing how he is execs will get Dejavu and one near the bottom of the round might bite on Lanier IF he has good measurables.
3 Milicic is a unicorn type they love those.
4 If ZZ can get his turnovers under control and his scoring up a bit the only things that would hold him back in combine would be if he has tiny hands.

Basically if Lanier and ZZ make the combine and show out (assuming they have good seasons and we penetrate far in the tourney) all bets are off. This is not a super deep draft maybe even less so than last year. Edey and Knecht doing well as rookies also changes the narrative somewhat. Around the end of the first round teams start taking flyers in the draft. Players in the 5'9-5'11 range are rare in the NBA but there are some every decade, Nate Robinson, Isiah Thomas 2, Calvin Murphy. I personally think ZZ is better than those guys.

UT is in a position to be undefeated into January. Only Florida and Oklahoma remain as the other 2 undefeated top 25 teams. This keeps our guys in the spotlight. We have Illinois this Saturday then our next test will be Arkansas and Florida on Jan 4 and 7th. It's very possible we make it into the end of January undefeated and hit auburn on the road on the 25th. Assuming no more major injuries by that time this team is jelled and Dubar and Carr are in the rotation at that point.

Yes @bleedingTNorange most sub 6 footers go in the second round but let me have my dreams.
Yes @omghulkhands Yuki rarely plays for Memphis but when he does its lovely.... there is also Jordan Mclaughlin on the Kings who is 5-11 (I know they list him at 6 on ESPN but he's 5-11) the NBA still to this day lies about player heights for some reason.
@ColinS In the limited time since he's come back for the team Dubar has definitely not looked bad. His minutes have been limited but I get a feeling tonight we get to see more of him against this horrendous Miami team. he has definitely not looked bad in any way. He's averaging just under 5 points in just under 11 mins a game. Believe it or not those are decent numbers.
 
#403
#403
pimo1 said:
Because its a brand new day and hyperbole is fun...the road has been paved. Just trying to be positive thinking. Also the NBA has no issues drafting seniors in first round its drafting them in lottery it has issues with. Trust me I'm very aware I was involved a a heated debate about the topic last season when I said that Knecht would not be drafted in lottery and Edey would. The NBA is very regimented in what they will and wont draft until there is an exception.

1 this years draft is basically Cooper Flagg and everyone else.
2 If Lanier keeps playing how he is execs will get Dejavu and one near the bottom of the round might bite on Lanier IF he has good measurables.
3 Milicic is a unicorn type they love those.
4 If ZZ can get his turnovers under control and his scoring up a bit the only things that would hold him back in combine would be if he has tiny hands.

Basically if Lanier and ZZ make the combine and show out (assuming they have good seasons and we penetrate far in the tourney) all bets are off. This is not a super deep draft maybe even less so than last year. Edey and Knecht doing well as rookies also changes the narrative somewhat. Around the end of the first round teams start taking flyers in the draft. Players in the 5'9-5'11 range are rare in the NBA but there are some every decade, Nate Robinson, Isiah Thomas 2, Calvin Murphy. I personally think ZZ is better than those guys.

UT is in a position to be undefeated into January. Only Florida and Oklahoma remain as the other 2 undefeated top 25 teams. This keeps our guys in the spotlight. We have Illinois this Saturday then our next test will be Arkansas and Florida on Jan 4 and 7th. It's very possible we make it into the end of January undefeated and hit auburn on the road on the 25th. Assuming no more major injuries by that time this team is jelled and Dubar and Carr are in the rotation at that point.

Yes @bleedingTNorange most sub 6 footers go in the second round but let me have my dreams.
Yes @omghulkhands Yuki rarely plays for Memphis but when he does its lovely.... there is also Jordan Mclaughlin on the Kings who is 5-11 (I know they list him at 6 on ESPN but he's 5-11) the NBA still to this day lies about player heights for some reason.
@ColinS In the limited time since he's come back for the team Dubar has definitely not looked bad. His minutes have been limited but I get a feeling tonight we get to see more of him against this horrendous Miami team. he has definitely not looked bad in any way. He's averaging just under 5 points in just under 11 mins a game. Believe it or not those are decent numbers.
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Nate Robinson was an athletic freak who couldn't hold down a starting role but could give you some big runs from the bench. Isaiah Thomas was an elite scorer, I think somehow he's still playing. Zeigler isn't an elite scorer and could have more trouble playing defense in the NBA, where there's a huge penalty to a small wingspan as a defender because the perimeter is further out. Maybe he'll play his way in but I don't think teams would be excited to try him out there simply because of his size.
 
#404
#404
bleedingTNorange said:
Who’s the last sub 5’9” guard to go in the first round? I also think it’s unlikely Lanier or Milicic go first round, knecht barely made round 1, the NBA just has an issue drafting older guys (which I disagree with), but all 3 of the players named are “old”.
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BTO a bit off topic but serious question with Lanier do you see more DK or Lofton? I see that as the one possible knock on Lanier his lack of athleticism. I see him as like in between the 2 in physical makeup. He is taller than Lofton and a bit better in footspeed and lateral movement. As a shooter he seems on par with both but so far only against bozos. But I think this schedule sets him up to be hot for SEC play.
 
#405
#405
kckempf said:
Nate Robinson was an athletic freak who couldn't hold down a starting role but could give you some big runs from the bench. Isaiah Thomas was an elite scorer, I think somehow he's still playing. Zeigler isn't an elite scorer and could have more trouble playing defense in the NBA, where there's a huge penalty to a small wingspan as a defender because the perimeter is further out. Maybe he'll play his way in but I don't think teams would be excited to try him out there simply because of his size.
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The Lakers dont play again till friday so...I am usually the realist here making that argument but for some reason with ZZ I see a guy in a position to make someone take a flyer on him late first round. Some team with multiple first round picks like say Brooklyn (4 picks) OKC 2 picks Utah 3 picks and Orlando with 2 picks. A lot of those picks likely move around before the draft but there will be 3-4 teams with multiple picks. I could see OKC or Brooklyn taking him on a flyer because why not. My brain knows its crazy but this is just a guy the heart roots for. He's a great person. Came from nothing. Earned everything from day 1. No off court shenanigans or attitude issues. Those are rare intangibles. Also his lack of scoring is, I think, more a system thing than a lack of ability. His free throw numbers say he can shoot and his shooting percentage has improved nearly every year from 38% his first 2 years to currently almost 43% all that with having to shoot more each year. he had a bad year last year at the line (returning from injury) but the rest of his career he is over 80%.

Planting my flag of hope here.. ZZ in the first round.
 
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#406
#406
kckempf said:
Nate Robinson was an athletic freak who couldn't hold down a starting role but could give you some big runs from the bench. Isaiah Thomas was an elite scorer, I think somehow he's still playing. Zeigler isn't an elite scorer and could have more trouble playing defense in the NBA, where there's a huge penalty to a small wingspan as a defender because the perimeter is further out. Maybe he'll play his way in but I don't think teams would be excited to try him out there simply because of his size.
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Switch everything defensive philosophy hurt shorter players a lot.

Because they can’t switch onto forwards, realistically.
 
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#407
#407
omghulkhands said:
Switch everything defensive philosophy hurt shorter players a lot.

Because they can’t switch onto forwards, realistically.
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There's that, and on top of it we're seeing defenses react against the offense pushing so far out onto the perimeter. You have to physically take up a lot more space as a team to defend that kind of spacing. Zeigler's height makes it so he takes up a foot less space than somebody like Derek White. I'd love to see somebody give it a shot with him, though, he's shown his value in our defense on the perimeter, though college offenses are more dense.
 
#408
#408
pimo1 said:
The Lakers dont play again till friday so...I am usually the realist here making that argument but for some reason with ZZ I see a guy in a position to make someone take a flyer on him late first round. Some team with multiple first round picks like say Brooklyn (4 picks) OKC 2 picks Utah 3 picks and Orlando with 2 picks. A lot of those picks likely move around before the draft but there will be 3-4 teams with multiple picks. I could see OKC or Brooklyn taking him on a flyer because why not. My brain knows its crazy but this is just a guy the heart roots for. He's a great person. Came from nothing. Earned everything from day 1. No off court shenanigans or attitude issues. Those are rare intangibles. Also his lack of scoring is, I think, more a system thing than a lack of ability. His free throw numbers say he can shoot and his shooting percentage has improved nearly every year from 38% his first 2 years to currently almost 43% all that with having to shoot more each year. he had a bad year last year at the line (returning from injury) but the rest of his career he is over 80%.

Planting my flag of hope here.. ZZ in the first round.
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OKC won't draft him. He's not a long, athletic defender first. That's their M.O.
 
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#410
#410
I think the best comp for Zeigler of recent is Markquis Nowell of Kansas State. He's actually shorter than ZZ at 5-7, and went undrafted in 2023, signed with the Raptors and played in one game for 3 minutes. He is currently playing in the G-League.

Another comp could be Tremont Waters who is 5-11 and played for LSU. He was drafted in the 2nd round by the Celtics in 2019. He played.a total of 40 games in the NBA, bounced around the G-League and is now playing overseas.

I wish the best for ZZ and think he has the heart of a warrior. I also think he is a defensive assett in ways the above two guys were not. Unfortunately though, the odds are against him and I think he would be fortunate to sneak in at the back of the 2nd rd. I think he will get an opportunity though and a team will be interested in his ability as an on-ball defender.
 
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#411
#411
vavolfan6 said:
I think the best comp for Zeigler of recent is Markquis Nowell of Kansas State. He's actually shorter than ZZ at 5-7, and went undrafted in 2023, signed with the Raptors and played in one game for 3 minutes. He is currently playing in the G-League.

Another comp could be Tremont Waters who is 5-11 and played for LSU. He was drafted in the 2nd round by the Celtics in 2019. He played.a total of 40 games in the NBA, bounced around the G-League and is now playing overseas.

I wish the best for ZZ and think he has the heart of a warrior. I also think he is a defensive assett in ways the above two guys were not. Unfortunately though, the odds are against him and I think he would be fortunate to sneak in at the back of the 2nd rd. I think he will get an opportunity though and a team will be interested in his ability as an on-ball defender.
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Nowell is a good 1.
 
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#412
#412
vavolfan6 said:
I think the best comp for Zeigler of recent is Markquis Nowell of Kansas State. He's actually shorter than ZZ at 5-7, and went undrafted in 2023, signed with the Raptors and played in one game for 3 minutes. He is currently playing in the G-League.

Another comp could be Tremont Waters who is 5-11 and played for LSU. He was drafted in the 2nd round by the Celtics in 2019. He played.a total of 40 games in the NBA, bounced around the G-League and is now playing overseas.

I wish the best for ZZ and think he has the heart of a warrior. I also think he is a defensive assett in ways the above two guys were not. Unfortunately though, the odds are against him and I think he would be fortunate to sneak in at the back of the 2nd rd. I think he will get an opportunity though and a team will be interested in his ability as an on-ball defender.
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Nowell's shooting really isn't good enough to keep him on an NBA roster. That's not good news for ZZ, whose shooting numbers are similar.
 
#414
#414
I remember Keith "Mister" Jennings ETSU in the 90s 5' 7" played 4 or 5 years for Golden State. Had a lot of spot duty playing time scored in the 20s a couple times. I do not think he was drafted, However, I didn't follow the draft back then.
 
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#415
#415
KTrain said:
I remember Keith "Mister" Jennings ETSU in the 90s 5' 7" played 4 or 5 years for Golden State. Had a lot of spot duty playing time scored in the 20s a couple times. I do not think he was drafted, However, I didn't follow the draft back then.
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He wasn't undrafted played for Golden State for 3 years 92-95. He was drafted by the Raptors in the expansion draft and decided to go overseas instead. Went on to become a high school coach.
 
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#416
#416
kckempf said:
Nate Robinson was an athletic freak who couldn't hold down a starting role but could give you some big runs from the bench. Isaiah Thomas was an elite scorer, I think somehow he's still playing. Zeigler isn't an elite scorer and could have more trouble playing defense in the NBA, where there's a huge penalty to a small wingspan as a defender because the perimeter is further out. Maybe he'll play his way in but I don't think teams would be excited to try him out there simply because of his size.
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There's zero chance ZZ gets drafted, but I could see him making a team. The Grizzlies have someone with very similar size named Yuki Kamawura on a two way contract. Grizzlies had someone last year named Jacob Gilyard also on a two way that is very similar to ZZ. All 3 players are 5'9" or shorter so it is possible.
 
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#417
#417
pimo1 said:
It's just my wild dream... also I think that's exactly why they might, he is something different on their roster and they are basically in a situation where they can take such chances.
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I see your thinking there and don’t disagree with it. But let’s look at Sam Presti’s entire draft history…he just doesn’t go outside his box for unproven talent.
 
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#418
#418
JelloPuddinPup said:
I see your thinking there and don’t disagree with it. But let’s look at Sam Presti’s entire draft history…he just doesn’t go outside his box for unproven talent.
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I shan't allow you to crush my dreams. Presti has gotten tired of the same old same draft long lanky athletic versatile guys and stack draft picks like firewood before a blizzard that's never coming. The traded Giddey for Caruso... smart move but totally out of his box. The next step is playing 7d chess and drafting ZZ and creating an unstoppable monster backcourt of doom. Their current roster has an average height of 6'6 which is silly... they need to add ZZ and get with the new age.

There have only been a bit over 12 5'9 guys in the NBA The number I got from research was 14 but its hard to tell with the lies on heights over the years. But what is interesting is almost half of those guys are from the last 20 years meaning that the NBA is opening its mind to the idea.

All Jokes aside ZZ is an outlier. The dude is an ironman, team player, good dude with talent, intelligence and hunger. It is very rare to find a guy like him with all those traits. Usually guys that work as hard as him are not as talented. His only negative is his height which is actually not like crazy. It's not like he is 5'7 with tiny hands. He is not a crazy pinpoint shooter but he is well above average. He can develop a 3 point shot. He is the guy that would put in the work. His speed and quickness can make up for his wingspan somewhat and lack of height can be an advantage as he can be harder to keep up with and slip through holes others can't. Durability is the biggest thing GM's will fear and his time at UT has proven he has that in spades. I have said it many times that I wish they'd play him less but honestly that might be the thing that gets him a look. Small guys and tall guys historically have had the biggest durability issues in the NBA. Big guys you have to cringe everytime they fall or come down funny because that might be the end. Small guys tend to stay hurt from all the collisions. ZZ is a mold-breaker and the NBA would be silly not to give him a try. I am just waiting for Yuki to have his breakout game that gets GM's thinking about getting their own shortgawd.

I honestly think that short guys can be the new cheatcode in today's NBA... without handchecks and such a small quick guy can do some serious damage in today's NBA. It's not like the 90's where you could beat folks to death without a whistle. I think if 5'8 160lb Watanabe can make a roster Z can and should be a late first-rounder or at least high 2nd. Brooklyn has 6 picks in the upcoming draft 4 in the first round.. what better way to give Ben Simmons the middle finger than drafting ZZ at 26? The Jazz need PG depth badly and have 2 first-rounders. I know its crazy but its fun to think about.. I know he probably goes 2nd round but man wouldn't it make you smile with pride? Maybe my Lakers will balance their karma by drafting him. I am not a Bronny hater but when you go that deep in the Nepo bucket balance must be sought with the universe and complete the Knection...see I was able to ramble around and get back to the OP...
 
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#420
#420
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#421
#421
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#424
#424
Would be a very stupid move by the Lakers. DK is a future star....they would be trading him and all assets to get Bron another chip (not guaranteed) and have him retire in 1-2 years. Then they are left with just Young and an aging AD.

All they need to secure their hopes of winning 1-2 titles is a tough facilitating PG who can break down his man on occasion, make the right decision/pass and be at least a threat from 3. Plenty of workmanlike guys that could give them that and would not require them to give up a future star (nearly current IMO). LeBron would have 1-2 more titles if he'd had a DK....now people think that he is going to let that organization give DK up for a guy like Young that needs to the ball in his hands to be at his best? I don't see it happening.
 
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#425
#425
omghulkhands said:
Article has a funny bit where Lakers start panicking when Knecht is still available because they want to draft him, but they don’t understand why he hasn’t been taken. They believe there must be some red flag they don’t know about. So they start calling everyone they can to find out.

The article suggests the factor beyond age was his interviews.

which, on one hand, I can almost understand. If you follow the program, you know that DK isn’t exactly Josh Dobbs.

On the other hand, I’ve never seen anything from the NBA that indicates they heavily value that sort of thing anyway. So still weird to me.
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I remember the interview with DK and Bronny preseason, Bronny sounded like what he is: a rich kid who went to prep school. Then they ask Knecht a question and he’s like “Yeah, man, I’s just hoopin.”

They need to make up their mind. Apparently GMs backed off Jaylen Brown because he was too smart and they were afraid he’d get bored. 🙄
 
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