The murder of Ahmaud Arbery

[hndog609]

The sufficient provocation would be the guy you've been illegally pursuing suddenly lunging for your gun.

Their pursuit of Arbery was arguably reckless and undoubtedly illegal.

I don't think the pursuit, in and of itself, was illegal. The idea of following someone for the purpose of maintaining contact and relaying their location once officers arrive is surely legal. To then go on and initiate a confrontation is taking a much larger leap. I haven't run down everything but did find this.

GA 17-4-60
A private person may arrest an offender if the offense is committed in his presence or within his immediate knowledge. If the offense is a felony and the offender is escaping or attempting to escape, a private person may arrest him upon reasonable and probable grounds of suspicion.

As I type this I am not aware that either of the first criteria were actually met and have no reason to believe the assertion could be made a felony offense was in play. That could make it arguable that the entire pretense for the CA was questionable which is not good for anything that comes about after, which in this case is a death.

 

[Dr Dread]

Both Zimmerman and TM were/are idiots. Treyvon went back home then came back out so he wasn't too scared and he wasn't so scared he confronted Zimmerman and started beating his head in on the sidewalk. Zimmerman should have turned around once he was told too but that doesn't make him guilty of murder.

Point stands that if the prosecutor didn't give into the SJW idiots/racebaiters and overcharge him they could have likely gotten a conviction with a charge of involuntary manslaughter. Hopefully these prosecutors will do that same and not give in to the mob/fake outrage of emotion.

False

 

[Rickyvol77]

Well, that is your opinion and I understand why you feel that way.

Bottom line for me, this is a tragedy that did not have to happen. Hopefully, for the some of us who may have needed it, this can serve as a valuable lesson. You have guns then you need to act responsibly. One man died, two or three others ruined their lives and for what? As far as I can see, nothing.

This is the problem when the media runs with cases like this to stir racial crap that has nothing to do with this incident (this type of incident happens all the time, both with similar and completely different results). It's a myriad of discussion and debating points ranging from neighborhood watch, preventing crime, reliance on police, laws about carrying firearms, self-defense and stand your ground laws, citizen's arrest, criminal behavior, etc.

So many factors play into these type of incidents, and they all rarely get covered correctly in the media. You have to examine EVERY single factor (which is why people are so misguided on the Trayvon Martion, Michael Brown, and other type shootings because they only look at superficial agenda driven media reports of the incidents.

A similar incident like this happened in Knoxville a few years ago and YOU NEVER HEARD OF IT outside a minor news blip, because no one was charged, and the suspect that was shot was white.

 

[1972 Grad]

This is the problem when the media runs with cases like this to stir racial crap that has nothing to do with this incident (this type of incident happens all the time, both with similar and completely different results). It's a myriad of discussion and debating points ranging from neighborhood watch, preventing crime, reliance on police, laws about carrying firearms, self-defense and stand your ground laws, citizen's arrest, criminal behavior, etc.

So many factors play into these type of incidents, and they all rarely get covered correctly in the media. You have to examine EVERY single factor (which is why people are so misguided on the Trayvon Martion, Michael Brown, and other type shootings because they only look at superficial agenda driven media reports of the incidents.

A similar incident like this happened in Knoxville a few years ago and YOU NEVER HEARD OF IT outside a minor news blip, because no one was charged, and the suspect that was shot was white.

Nobody gaf about white trash getting shot.

 

[BreatheUT]

They did call 911 while chasing the guy. And were told to stop but they continued. As for the videographer, I'm not sure but I believe the consensus is they were with the party that shot the guy, not sure if that has been confirmed. The two men chasing were a retired DA and a police officer.

Thanks for the additional info.

 

[1972 Grad]

I haven't been following this so I don't know BUT I'd bet a dime to a dollar he was up to no good. That doesn't excuse what those idiots did but I doubt he was anything close to being an "innocent man".

I wouldn't bet against you on this one, hog.

 

[hog88]

I wouldn't bet against you on this one, hog.

Clearwater wouldn't either

 

[1972 Grad]

Clearwater wouldn't either

I'm willing to make the same assumption as you.

 

[bamawriter]

I don't think the pursuit, in and of itself, was illegal. The idea of following someone for the purpose of maintaining contact and relaying their location once officers arrive is surely legal. To then go on and initiate a confrontation is taking a much larger leap. I haven't run down everything but did find this.

GA 17-4-60
A private person may arrest an offender if the offense is committed in his presence or within his immediate knowledge. If the offense is a felony and the offender is escaping or attempting to escape, a private person may arrest him upon reasonable and probable grounds of suspicion.

As I type this I am not aware that either of the first criteria were actually met and have no reason to believe the assertion could be made a felony offense was in play. That could make it arguable that the entire pretense for the CA was questionable which is not good for anything that comes about after, which in this case is a death.

This is all correct. They did not witness him commit a crime nor did they claim they did so. If they had followed at a reasonable distance in order to give the cops his location then that would have been fine. The moment they went from following to pursuing and/or detaining, they broke the law.

 

[n_huffhines]

Is this the unedited call or a call edited by the media to sound incriminating as was the case with Zimmerman initially?

Fox News?

 

[FLVOL69]

Fox News?

NBC

 

[Bigun]

False

Nothing is false about the facts. Both are idiots are Martin would still be alive he hadn't doubled back and gone back after him or if Zimmerman had had stopped when he was told to.

 

[BreatheUT]

Not understanding all the talk about Trayvon. How long would you allow an unknown assailant to stalk you in the middle of the night before confronting him. By the conversation his girlfriend, it was obvious that he knew he was being stalked. And the fact that a 17 yo admitted to his girlfriend that he was scared says a lot. Why did SYG not apply to him? Since the incident, we’ve had plenty chances to observe Zimmerman and assess his credibility. He’s proven to have none.

This is what I don't get. People act like it's ok to stalk individuals and it not elicit a negative response. It doesn't matter the Zimmerson was neighborhood watch acting on a suspicion. I get that. We don't want neighbors homes being broken into. What if Martin was innocent but you got this creep following you? It was not proven Martin was the assailant. We have partisan responses to some of this stuff that makes us sound like mindless savages.

Who cares if Trayvon used marijuana when it comes to looking at fairness. And as you mention, Zimmerson hasn't been a model citizen since.

 

[Rickyvol77]

This is what I don't get. People act like it's ok to stalk individuals and it not elicit a negative response. It doesn't matter the Zimmerson was neighborhood watch acting on a suspicion. I get that. We don't want neighbors homes being broken into. What if Martin was innocent but you got this creep following you? It was not proven Martin was the assailant. We have partisan responses to some of this stuff that makes us sound like mindless savages.

Who cares if Trayvon used marijuana when it comes to looking at fairness. And as you mention, Zimmerson hasn't been a model citizen since.

The act of following someone and calling 911 on them, even if mistaken, isn't equal under the eyes of the law as physically assaulting someone else. There is no justification for almost killing someone just because they "were following you"

 

[BreatheUT]

Because Martin was on his porch at his house and Zimmerman was walking back to his car when Martin ran back out towards him hit him, and started bashing his head on the concrete while on top of him...it's not stand your ground to assault someone else...period

Is that really what happened?

 

[1972 Grad]

This is what I don't get. People act like it's ok to stalk individuals and it not elicit a negative response. It doesn't matter the Zimmerson was neighborhood watch acting on a suspicion. I get that. We don't want neighbors homes being broken into. What if Martin was innocent but you got this creep following you? It was not proven Martin was the assailant. We have partisan responses to some of this stuff that makes us sound like mindless savages.

Who cares if Trayvon used marijuana when it comes to looking at fairness. And as you mention, Zimmerson hasn't been a model citizen since.

Trayvon has.

 

[Rickyvol77]

Is that really what happened?

yes, it's the main reason that Zimmerman wasn't convicted. The officer on scene at arrival clearly noted (and photographed) the injuries to Zimmerman's face and back of head. Martin's girlfriend told the police he told her he was going back out to get this guy, and eyewitnesses stated Martin was on top of Zimmerman slamming his head into concrete as Zimmerman yelled to stop. Martin was then shot by Zimmerman

 

[hog88]

This is what I don't get. People act like it's ok to stalk individuals and it not elicit a negative response. It doesn't matter the Zimmerson was neighborhood watch acting on a suspicion. I get that. We don't want neighbors homes being broken into. What if Martin was innocent but you got this creep following you? It was not proven Martin was the assailant. We have partisan responses to some of this stuff that makes us sound like mindless savages.

Who cares if Trayvon used marijuana when it comes to looking at fairness. And as you mention, Zimmerson hasn't been a model citizen since.

Someone stalking you, go home and call the cops. He had a cell phone, he could have called the cops before going home.

 

[hndog609]

This is what I don't get. People act like it's ok to stalk individuals and it not elicit a negative response. It doesn't matter the Zimmerson was neighborhood watch acting on a suspicion. I get that. We don't want neighbors homes being broken into. What if Martin was innocent but you got this creep following you? It was not proven Martin was the assailant. We have partisan responses to some of this stuff that makes us sound like mindless savages.

Who cares if Trayvon used marijuana when it comes to looking at fairness. And as you mention, Zimmerson hasn't been a model citizen since.

The primary difference between this case and the GZ/TM case was that GZ was on the phone with authorities the entire time until TM first broke contact. This cannot be overemphasized. GZ called in to have a cruiser come by to investigate a suspicious person. As that went on and still on the phone TM wandered out of direct sight from GZ so the latter exited his vehicle to maintain distant contact. TM took off and GZ informed the official of as much. A whole conversation ensued, with TM totally in the wind, including GZ actually stating he did not want to give out his address aloud as he had no idea where TM might be. The conversation ended with GZ supposed to meet the still inbound LEO.

There is no possible way TM could have come back into contact with GZ outside his own volition. Martin was a 6'2" 160lb kid that even IF GZ wanted to catch him he wouldn't have had a prayer in doing so.

This case we have here involves openly armed individuals unambiguously directly confronting someone. While there may be some similarities there's some pretty profound differences.

 

[TNVOLNAVY]

Really. You wouldn't fight back if someone had a gun pointed at you and you thought he/she would shoot you?

Nope, at least not the 2 times I’ve had a gun pointed at me but then again I know the difference between reality and movie fantasies.

 

[KB5252]

Really. You wouldn't fight back if someone had a gun pointed at you and you thought he/she would shoot you?

No, because if you do you ensure they will shoot you. At least that's how I see it. And I have had weapons pointed at me on more than one occasion.

 

[BreatheUT]

yes, it's the main reason that Zimmerman wasn't convicted. The officer on scene at arrival clearly noted (and photographed) the injuries to Zimmerman's face and back of head. Martin's girlfriend told the police he told her he was going back out to get this guy, and eyewitnesses stated Martin was on top of Zimmerman slamming his head into concrete as Zimmerman yelled to stop. Martin was then shot by Zimmerman

It has been a while since this happened but if I recall Martin had not made it home yet. Zimmerman was still lingering. I'm not sure why Martin didn't just try to find his way home but Zimmerman was following him with a gun. IMO Zimmerman appeared as the aggressor. If I would've got my hands on Zimmerman then I would've tried to beat his azz too. Zimmerman was able to kill a 15 y/o. Zimmerman got off because of the stand your ground law.

 

[BreatheUT]

The primary difference between this case and the GZ/TM case was that GZ was on the phone with authorities the entire time until TM first broke contact. This cannot be overemphasized. GZ called in to have a cruiser come by to investigate a suspicious person. As that went on and still on the phone TM wandered out of direct sight from GZ so the latter exited his vehicle to maintain distant contact. TM took off and GZ informed the official of as much. A whole conversation ensued, with TM totally in the wind, including GZ actually stating he did not want to give out his address aloud as he had no idea where TM might be. The conversation ended with GZ supposed to meet the still inbound LEO.

There is no possible way TM could have come back into contact with GZ outside his own volition. Martin was a 6'2" 160lb kid that even IF GZ wanted to catch him he wouldn't have had a prayer in doing so.

This case we have here involves openly armed individuals unambiguously directly confronting someone. While there may be some similarities there's some pretty profound differences.

Fair. We don't have to rehash the past. Btw, I don't care if you are black, white, green, yellow, etc. An "innocent" person dying is a travesty.

 

[Rickyvol77]

It has been a while since this happened but if I recall Martin had not made it home yet. Zimmerman was still lingering. I'm not sure why Martin didn't just try to find his way home but Zimmerman was following him with a gun. IMO Zimmerman appeared as the aggressor. If I would've got my hands on Zimmerman then I would've tried to beat his azz too. Zimmerman was able to kill a 15 y/o. Zimmerman got off because of the stand your ground law.

he was 17 not 15, and 6'2 and stronger and taller than Zimmerman. He didn't see any gun as Zimmerman was wearing it concealed. He clearly saw Zimmerman was on the phone as he stated so on the phone. Martin had made it home and told his friend he was going after the "creepy ass cracka" Several eyewitnesses all stated Martin assaulted Zimmerman as he screamed for help over and over again. Pretty open and shut case of stand your ground....

 

[Rickyvol77]

Fair. We don't have to rehash the past. Btw, I don't care if you are black, white, green, yellow, etc. An "innocent" person dying is a travesty.

it's not rehashing as much as actual facts and law vs. "what i feelz" or "what the news said about it" People who attempt to seriously hurt others aren't innocent