The Myth of Republican Fiscal Responsibility

#77
#77
lawgator1 said:
I think that's true. I've only read portions, myself. And not from the original source.

I think that's part of the reason why Obama needs to break things down a bit so that folks get a better sense of the ratios and where the dollars are going.
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This is hardly everything but it does list a lot of money going to places that I think you'd agree are pretty dubious when working from the angle of "emergency stimulus spending".

$24 million for construction and repairs to US Department of Agriculture facilities
$22.5 million for the USDA Inspector General for oversight on the stimulus bill
$176 million for deferred maintenance on US Agricultural Research Service facilities
$50 million to modernize and maintain the IT system of the Farm Service Agency
$290 million for "Watershed and Flood Prevention Operations"
$50 million for "Wastershed Rehabiliation Program"
$1 billion for rural housing direct loans
$10.4 billion for rural housing guaranteed loans
$2.5 billion for rural distance learning, telemedicine and broadband
$100 million in grants for National School Lunch Program equipment assistance
$150 million in agricultural commodity assistance
$1 billion for the Census Bureau
$4.7 billion for "Broadband Technology Opportunities Program" which includes $350 million for the
development of a "broadband inventory map"
$650 million for Digital TV converter box program
$220 million for Scientific research at the National Institute of Standards and Technology
$360 million for Construction of scientific research facilities
$230 million in extra budget money for the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration
$600 million for NOAA "Procurement, Acquisition and Construction"
$225 million in grants for programs to combat violence against women
$2 billion in state and local law enforcement assistance grants
$225 million in grants to improve the criminal justice system
$225 million in law enforcement assistance to Indian Tribes
$100 million for the "office for Victims of Crime"
$125 million in law enforcement assistance for rural areas
$50 million in state and local grants to combat internet crime against kids
$1 billion for the COPS program
$400 million in operations budget money for NASA
$150 million for "Aeronautics" at NASA
$400 million for "Exploration" at NASA
$2.5 billion for research at the National Science Foundation
$100 million for NSF "Education and Human Resources"
$400 million for NSF "Major Research Equipment and Facilities Construction"
$1.4 billion in Army "Operation and Maintenance"
$657 million in Navy "Operation and Maintenance"
$113 million in Marine Corps "Operation and Maintenance"
$1.09 billion for Air Force "Operation and Maintenance"
$98 million for Army Reserve "Operation and Maintenance"
$55 million for Navy Reserve "Operation and Maintenance"
$39 million in Marine Corps Reserve "Operation and Maintenance"
$13 million for Air Force Reserve "Operation and Maintenance"
$266 million for Army National Guard "Operation and Maintenance"
$25 million for Air National Guard "Operation and Maintenance"
$75 million each for Army, Navy, Air Force "Research, Development, Test and Evaluation"
$400 million for "Defense Health Program"
$2 billion for Army Corps of Engineers construction
$375 million for Army Corps projects on the Mississippi and tributaries
$2.07 billion for Army Corps of Engineers "Operation and Maintenance"
$100 million for "Formerly Utilized Sites Remedial Action Program"
$1 billion for Interior Department "Water and Related Resources"
$50 million for Central Utah Project Completion Act
$50 million for California Bay-Delta Restoration Act
$10 million to inspect canals in urban areas
$16.8 billion for Energy Department, "Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy"
$5 billion of that goes for "Weatherization Assistance"
$4.5 billion to improve the nation's electricity grid
$3.4 billion for "Fossil Energy Research and Development"
$483 million for "Non-Defense Environmental Cleanup"
$390 million for "Uranium Enrichment Decontamination and Decommissioning Fund"
$1.6 billion for "Science"
$6 billion "Innovative Technology Loan Guarantee Program"
$5.12 billion for "Defense Environmental Cleanup"
$7 million for oversight of "Making Work Pay" tax credits and payments in this bill
$80 million to implement health insurance tax credit plan
$5.5 billion for the "Federal Buildings Fund"
$300 million to buy energy efficient vehicles for the federal government
$200 million to consolidate the Department of Homeland Security Headquarters
$100 million for hi tech border security technology along the Mexican border
$420 million for construction of US Customs land border ports of entry
$20 million for tactical communications equipment for immigration enforcement
$1 billion for Aviation Security (explosive detection equipment)
$98 million for improvements to Coast Guard shore facilities
$142 million for "Alteration of Bridges"
$150 million in FEMA Public Transportation Security Assistance grants
$150 million for Port Security Grants
$210 million in grants to upgrade non-Federal fire stations
$125 million for Bureau of Land Management activities
$180 million for Bureau of Land Management construction
$15 million for Wildland Fire Management
$165 million for Fish and Wildlife Service deferred maintenance
$115 million for Fish and Wildlife Service construction projects
$15 million for preservation at Historically Black Colleges
$589 million for National Park System construction
$140 million for repair and restoration of US Geological Survey facilities
$450 million for Bureau of Indian Affairs construction
$600 million for EPA Superfund program
$200 million for Leaking Underground Storage Tank program
$4 billion in Clean Water grants
$2 billion for safe drinking water projects
$300 million for "Diesel Emission Reduction Act grants"
$650 million in US Forest Service "Capital Improvement and Maintenance"
$500 million for Wildland Fire Management
$85 million for Indian Health Services
$415 million for Indian Health Facilities construction projects
$25 million for repairs on Smithsonian Institution facilities
$50 million for National Endowment for the Arts to help preserve jobs in the non-profit arts sector
$3.95 billion in worker training and employment services
$400 million in state unemployment insurance funding
$80 million for enforcement of worker protection laws
$250 million for construction of Job Corps Centers
$500 million in grants to health care centers
$1.5 billion for health information technology systems
$500 million to address health professions workforce shortages
$1.3 billion for National Institutes of Health research resources
$7.4 billion for Office of the Director, NIH
$500 million for high priority construction at NIH
$700 million for comparative effectiveness research
$2 billion in low income child care assistance
$1 billion in funding for Head Start
$1.1 billion for expansion of Early Head Start
$1 billion for Community Services Block Grant Act
$2 billion for Office of the National Coordinator of Health Information Technology
$300 million for CDC childhood immunization programs
$650 million for community-based prevention and wellness strategies
$50 million in grants to states for infections reduction strategies
$13 billion in Title I education funding
$720 million in school improvement grants
$200 million in "Innovation and Improvement" education grants
$12.2 billion in Special Education funding
$15.8 billion in student financial assistance money
$89 million in AmeriCorps awards money
$500 million to replace the National Computer Center for Social Security
$500 million to process disability and retirement claims
$180 million in Army Military Construction
$280 million in Navy and Marine Corps Military Construction
$180 million in Air Force Military Construction funds
$1.33 billion to build military hospitals
$120 million for military energy conservation programs
$50 million for Army National Guard Military Construction
$50 million for Air National Guard Military Construction
$34 million for Army family housing construction
$80 million for Air Force family housing construction
$555 million for "Homeowners Assistance Fund"
$1 billion for Veterans Affairs medical facilities
$50 million for National Cemetery Administration
$150 million to hire temporary VA claims processors
$50 million for VA Information Technology Systems
$150 million in grants to build state extended care facilities
$90 million for passport and training functions facilities
$290 million for State Department IT security upgrades
$1.5 billion in surface transportation infrastructure
$200 million for FAA infrastructure projects
$1.1 billion in airport grants
$27.5 billion in railroad and port infrastructure investments
$105 million for Puerto Rico highway program
$60 million in competitive transportation grants to states
$550 million for transportation on Indian reservations
$8 billion for high speed rail
$1.3 billion for Amtrak
$6.9 billion in mass transit capital assistance
$100 million in discretionary grants to public transit agencies
$750 million for mass transit rail improvements
$4 billion in "Public Housing Capital Fund"
$510 million in Native American Housing Block Grants
$1 billion in Community Development Grants
$2 billion in emergency aid for the redevelopment of foreclosed homes
$2.25 billion for low-income housing tax credit projects
$1.5 billion in a homelessness prevention fund
 
#78
#78
in other words, it's a huge spending bill with very little emphasis on actual fiscal stimulus
 
#80
#80
hndog609 said:
Define "small business" and "wealthy". I work for what I would describe as a "small business". The guy that signs my check isn't going to be getting any mulit-million dollar bonuses but he drives a Navigator and hunts/fishes and vacations pretty much where he wants when he wants. He is by no means a poor man. (good guy too, I like him a lot)
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Small business owners make up the largest percentage of the wealthy in this country.
 
#81
#81
truefan said:
Unbelievable. You need to do some reading and research. Clinton walked into a declining economy.
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no he didn't. what Clinton walked into was actually the return on investment that happened during the period of Reagan's tax cuts for the wealthy.

Nobody on here wants to admit that, but the investment cycle is that long and much of the technology that represented the tech boom sprung from the equity world that arose in the late 80s.
 
#82
#82
gasguy98 said:
What the hell?
I for one know first hand that Reagan DID cut taxes and those tax cuts led to tremendous prosperity for a lot of people.
I can't believe that some people deny this!
Top marginal tax rate was 70% and he lowered it 38% (I think it was 38%)
That gave SMALL BUSINESS owners a lot more capital to invest in their companies. I know this happened from first hand experience.
Good Lord!!
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Actually the tax rate went down to 28%, but there was NO overall tax cut. Other forms of income became taxable...many tax shelters were deemed to be taxable and the cut from the top income tax was shifted to these types of income. It was revenue neutrality. The amount of revenue from taxes coming in didn't change, just spread out. In fact, if we implemented the Reagen tax plan now, taxes would be higher for almost everyone.


It is all in the Internal Revenue Tax code of 1986. Read it and then get back to me.

Good Lord...LOL
 
#83
#83
The type of tax shelters you talked about were specifically put in place because the highest tax rate was 70% and most of those tax shelters went bancrupt following the collapse of the oil price in the early 80s. eliminating those ridiculous shelters was a great thing.

but you are mistaken that overrall tax rates didn't go down. we brought in just as much revenue by 1986 because we created $8 mil jobs between 81 and 86.

the average american in particular paid a lot less taxes.
 
#84
#84
Hndog, I really don't know what much of that list is, much less whether spending on those projects will help the economy. You seem to just assume that they are unworthy. No offense, but do you know of the value of spending $50 million on national guard construction projects for the Army and the Navy? I sure don't.

But I do think its wrong to assume they are unworthy.
 
#85
#85
Hndog, I really don't know what much of that list is, much less whether spending on those projects will help the economy. You seem to just assume that they are unworthy. No offense, but do you know of the value of spending $50 million on national guard construction projects for the Army and the Navy? I sure don't.

But I do think its wrong to assume they are unworthy.
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The point is that this bill is supposed to stimulate the economy, not just fund things that are "worthy."
 
#86
#86
Vol_4_Life said:
The point is that this bill is supposed to stimulate the economy, not just fund things that are "worthy."
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When I said "worthy" I meant in the sense that they would help the economy. I mean, in theory, spending money on construction projects can have a great benefit to the contractors, the subs, their subs, and the worker bees.

All I am saying is that it is not fair to assume that these, or at leats a large number of these, won't have that effect.

And having said that, let me add that I am not naieve. I am sure that the Congresspeople where those projects are going to occur are the ones that supported them. And I am further quite certain that they will happen in Democratically-controlled districts and states.

But that is a happenstance of elections. The size of it may be quite large in this case, but if it does indeed spur the economy, its not like those dollars are going to have some sort of homing device keeping them from spreading out into the Republican areas, too.
 
#87
#87
droski said:
The type of tax shelters you talked about were specifically put in place because the highest tax rate was 70% and most of those tax shelters went bancrupt following the collapse of the oil price in the early 80s. eliminating those ridiculous shelters was a great thing.

but you are mistaken that overrall tax rates didn't go down. we brought in just as much revenue by 1986 because we created $8 mil jobs between 81 and 86.

the average american in particular paid a lot less taxes.
Click to expand...


No, I am exactly right about the revenue. Read up on it and get back to me. There are tons of documents supporting these facts
 
#88
#88
droski said:
The type of tax shelters you talked about were specifically put in place because the highest tax rate was 70% and most of those tax shelters went bancrupt following the collapse of the oil price in the early 80s. eliminating those ridiculous shelters was a great thing.

but you are mistaken that overrall tax rates didn't go down. we brought in just as much revenue by 1986 because we created $8 mil jobs between 81 and 86.

the average american in particular paid a lot less taxes.
Click to expand...

Not true. Read up on it.
 
#89
#89
truefan said:
Actually the tax rate went down to 28%, but there was NO overall tax cut. Other forms of income became taxable...many tax shelters were deemed to be taxable and the cut from the top income tax was shifted to these types of income. It was revenue neutrality. The amount of revenue from taxes coming in didn't change, just spread out. In fact, if we implemented the Reagen tax plan now, taxes would be higher for almost everyone.


It is all in the Internal Revenue Tax code of 1986. Read it and then get back to me.

Good Lord...LOL
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surely you know the difference between 81 and 86 and the fact that the 86 tax code change was only significant in that it changed the depreciation rules for income producing properties. That single change crushed valuations across income properties for years. Regardless, trying to pin all of that on Reagan, when Tip & Co fought him at every turn, is a helluva lot misleading.

Again, Reagan dramatically reduced upper tier taxes and the economy exploded for it, even without a huge driver like tech booms. The bottom line is that he freed up capital being held by the wealthy and they began taking on risky investments because the returns all of a sudden justified it. We have the 90s tech boom to show for it.
 
#90
#90
lawgator1 said:
Hndog, I really don't know what much of that list is, much less whether spending on those projects will help the economy. You seem to just assume that they are unworthy. No offense, but do you know of the value of spending $50 million on national guard construction projects for the Army and the Navy? I sure don't.

But I do think its wrong to assume they are unworthy.
Click to expand...

I assume nothing. In post #70 you addressed a need to better see how much money was going where and I addressed that need. I also stated that list is not all-inclusive and did NOT state how I felt any particular item ranked on some "worthiness" scale. I did state, and affirm here again, that there is a lot of money on that list that is quite dubious if one is arguing that it was necessary to be spent to salvage our economy via "emergency stimulus".

Now to address the "worthy" angle a little better though Vol4life took a pretty good bite out of it. If there was a big grant for, say, children's cancer research, would that be a "worthy" cause? Darn right it would. Is it something you jack into an "emergency stimulus" bill and try to convince me it's part of saving the economy? Umm...no. Here's a more specific example:

$225 million in law enforcement assistance to Indian Tribes

I'm not going to argue what's "worthy" about that but I can darn sure question how that does squat to help salvage our national economy.
 
#91
#91
BigPapaVol said:
surely you know the difference between 81 and 86 and the fact that the 86 tax code change was only significant in that it changed the depreciation rules for income producing properties. That single change crushed valuations across income properties for years. Regardless, trying to pin all of that on Reagan, when Tip & Co fought him at every turn, is a helluva lot misleading.

Again, Reagan dramatically reduced upper tier taxes and the economy exploded for it, even without a huge driver like tech booms. The bottom line is that he freed up capital being held by the wealthy and they began taking on risky investments because the returns all of a sudden justified it. We have the 90s tech boom to show for it.
Click to expand...

Yes, I know the differences very well. I wasn't arguing over the effects of his tax plan.

My point, which BTW is fact, was that there wasn't an overall tax cut. Taxes were shifted. Tax revenue didn't change
 
#92
#92
truefan said:
Yes, I know the differences very well. I wasn't arguing over the effects of his tax plan.

My point, which BTW is fact, was that there wasn't an overall tax cut. Taxes were shifted. Tax revenue didn't change
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tax revenue didn't change after the cuts because the massive growth in incomes across America drove tax receipts through the roof. Maybe a quick look at GDP growth chart would help.

Reagan's tax policies are exactly what modern champions of limited taxation point to as means to increasing government receipts. I know it's kind of silly, but they do that because it works.
 
#93
#93
BigPapaVol said:
Reagan's tax policies are exactly what modern champions of limited taxation point to as means to increasing government receipts. I know it's kind of silly, but they do that because it works.
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What does that matter if debt as a percentage of GDP goes up with those same policies?
 
#94
#94
rjd970 said:
What does that matter if debt as a percentage of GDP goes up with those same policies?
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but you're tying together two unrelated issues as it pertains to the Reagan situation. He massively increased government spending, primarily militarily, so you're drawing a conclusion that the facts don't support. Stats regularly lie or tell a very limited piece of the story. That's why you rarely see me use them.
 
#95
#95
BigPapaVol said:
tax revenue didn't change after the cuts because the massive growth in incomes across America drove tax receipts through the roof. Maybe a quick look at GDP growth chart would help.

Reagan's tax policies are exactly what modern champions of limited taxation point to as means to increasing government receipts. I know it's kind of silly, but they do that because it works.
Click to expand...


I agree, but very few conservatives are asking for a Reagen type tax plan
 
#96
#96
the fact is that americans got richer under reagan. i very much doubt that is going to happen under obama.
 
#97
#97
truefan said:
I agree, but very few conservatives are asking for a Reagen type tax plan
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and they are failing us at every turn. I'd buy all of the liberal social garbage if they'd set forth a fiscal conservative market champion.
 
#98
#98
I have never seen data that suggests the tax policies of Reagan or either Bush were in the least bit fiscally responsible.

Americans may have got richer, but debt and deficits went up faster as well. I guess it is ok to borrow from your kids if it makes you richer?
 
#100
#100
rjd970 said:
I have never seen data that suggests the tax policies of Reagan or either Bush were in the least bit fiscally responsible.

Americans may have got richer, but debt and deficits went up faster as well. I guess it is ok to borrow from your kids if it makes you richer?
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Bush wasn't remotely fiscally responsible. Bush I raised freaking taxes for you. What else did you want him to do? Clearly that was genius for you. Granted, 1991 saw credit markets similar to what we see today.

Reagan simply took the most disastrous inflation environment in American history, reversed it, over the shouts of as partisan a dem congress as history has produced and grew the economy like it was post WWII. He ramped up spending to kill the Soviets and couldn't ever get Tip to agree to cutting enough horsecrap gov't offices.

Now, which president are you going to tout as fiscally responsible? Clinton?
 
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