The Official “Regular Posters of the Basketball Forum” Thread

[VolGee4]

Being an athlete comes with specific advantages and privileges that aren't afforded to the other students of a university. Tuition, housing, meals, healthcare, nutrition, books...average students don't receive many (or any) of those things at no cost.

Those benefits come with a cost to student athletes. If they want the freedom of the average student, no one is stripping them of that opportunity. They just couldn't be a scholarship student-athlete, which is an option, not a requirement, of every student. No one is forcing these kids to be athletes and then restricting their rights to move around anywhere they want. Being a student-athlete is optional, and it comes with independent requirements and rules.

Yes. I'm pretty sure I heard it on the radio once, but I think athletic departments keep up with the average annual cost of a student athlete in each sport. By the time you consider all of these expenses, I believe it's probably close to $150k-$250k per year in the high major sports.

 

[cardvolfan]

I remember seeing this last winter! Dude is hilarious…

So is Santi.

 

[cardvolfan]

Being an athlete comes with specific advantages and privileges that aren't afforded to the other students of a university. Tuition, housing, meals, healthcare, nutrition, books...average students don't receive many (or any) of those things at no cost.

Those benefits come with a cost to student athletes. If they want the freedom of the average student, no one is stripping them of that opportunity. They just couldn't be a scholarship student-athlete, which is an option, not a requirement, of every student. No one is forcing these kids to be athletes and then restricting their rights to move around anywhere they want. Being a student-athlete is optional, and it comes with independent requirements and rules.

THIS!

 

[cardvolfan]

No one has forced these athletes to pursue athletic status as D1 athletes. These kids make that personal choice. They sacrifice, but they know that beforehand. They also receive the best as far as public notoriety, education, training, tutoring, and other things. Gifted athletes receive preferential commodities that the “regular” student can’t come close to receiving.

What about the gifted intellectual students, the students who serve abroad, or the students with handicaps that give their all? Is athletics the only priority? The “me first” mentality is bothersome, at least for me. There are more important things than athletics in this world.

 

[TheMookieMonster]

Being an athlete comes with specific advantages and privileges that aren't afforded to the other students of a university. Tuition, housing, meals, healthcare, nutrition, books...average students don't receive many (or any) of those things at no cost.

Those benefits come with a cost to student athletes. If they want the freedom of the average student, no one is stripping them of that opportunity. They just couldn't be a scholarship student-athlete, which is an option, not a requirement, of every student. No one is forcing these kids to be athletes and then restricting their rights to move around anywhere they want. Being a student-athlete is optional, and it comes with independent requirements and rules.

Well said. I don’t like the argument or even think it’s a comparable situation to say that a STUDENT athlete is basically having their labor rights hindered because they cannot move from school to school at will.

It’s not the same thing. You cannot even do that in the NFL. Which is why if we’re going to completely strip college athletics of all amateurism aspects, let’s quit this half-ass in between situation we’re in and just make this sport professional. Make the athletes sign multi-year contracts. I’m not saying that’s how I would want it to be done, but this weird limbo that we’re in between amateur athletics and professionalism is just crushing the sport and making it hard to govern/manage. Pick a lane and stay in it.

 

[cardvolfan]

Well said. I don’t like the argument or even think it’s a comparable situation to say that a STUDENT athlete is basically having their labor rights hindered because they cannot move from school to school at will.

It’s not the same thing. You cannot even do that in the NFL. Which is why if we’re going to completely strip college athletics of all amateurism aspects, let’s quit this half-ass in between situation we’re in and just make this sport professional. Make the athletes sign multi-year contracts. I’m not saying that’s how I would want it to be done, but this weird limbo that we’re in between amateur athletics and professionalism is just crushing the sport and making it hard to govern/manage. Pick a lane and stay in it.

It is already professional sports, even more so than many “professional” athletes because of the contract status.

 

[TheMookieMonster]

It is already professional sports, even more so than many “professional” athletes because of the contract status.

I guess. But it’s not quite as formal as what we have with professional organizations. There was a report from last week that talked about how the NCAA is considering allowing teams to opt-in to a new league where players can sign a direct contract with a school where the school can directly pay them and handle sponsorships and be more of an active partner than this Wild West scenario we have now.

I’d be more interested in doing something like that than what we have now or just allowing players to move freely with no repercussions.

 

[cardvolfan]

I guess. But it’s not quite as formal as what we have with professional organizations. There was a report from last week that talked about how the NCAA is considering allowing teams to opt-in to a new league where players can sign a direct contract with a school where the school can directly pay them and handle sponsorships and be more of an active partner than this Wild West scenario we have now.

I’d be more interested in doing something like that than what we have now or just allowing players to move freely with no repercussions.

Agreed.

 

[IndianapolisVol]

Do you guys think speeding up the tempo on offense for the first few minutes of the 2nd half would solve some of the issues we’ve been having? This team has come out flat in the 2nd half in a few games now and it seems like aside from Dalton, Gainey and sometimes JJJ, our guys look to make the extra pass and seem reluctant to take a shot. In the 2nd half against UNC we played a lot quicker and did a better job at taking the first open look. Dalton and JJJ both thrived once we picked up the pace and we out-scored the Tarheels by 14 points in the 2nd half. Thoughts?

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

Do you guys think speeding up the tempo on offense for the first few minutes of the 2nd half would solve some of the issues we’ve been having? This team has come out flat in the 2nd half in a few games now and it seems like aside from Dalton, Gainey and sometimes JJJ, our guys look to make the extra pass and seem reluctant to take a shot. In the 2nd half against UNC we played a lot quicker and did a better job at taking the first open look. Dalton and JJJ both thrived once we picked up the pace and we out-scored the Tarheels by 14 points in the 2nd half. Thoughts?

I think that we need to grab some offensive rebounds to have fewer scoring droughts. Put Awaka in.

 

[chuckiepoo]

Do you guys think speeding up the tempo on offense for the first few minutes of the 2nd half would solve some of the issues we’ve been having? This team has come out flat in the 2nd half in a few games now and it seems like aside from Dalton, Gainey and sometimes JJJ, our guys look to make the extra pass and seem reluctant to take a shot. In the 2nd half against UNC we played a lot quicker and did a better job at taking the first open look. Dalton and JJJ both thrived once we picked up the pace and we out-scored the Tarheels by 14 points in the 2nd half. Thoughts?

I think you explained it well. Accelerator always down!

 

[MinisterofDef#92]

But they aren't employees, which is the key component to these types of arguments. It's one thing for the public to look at them and visualize them as theoretical employees of the universities they represent. But in reality, the same government that is stepping into control the situation and overrule the NCAA doesn't even recognize them as employees of the university.

Ah, yes, but therein lies the problem and is why the NCAA had it's head handed to it.

The colleges and NCAA created this euphemism called a "student-athlete" based on an argument of retaining "amateur status"...frankly, this has been a brilliant, legal, sleight of hand strategy which obviously worked for awhile. Interesting that the "amateur status" only applies to and limits the compensation of the "student athletes"...never anyone else around the sports program (e.g., athletic department, coaches, trainers, etc...).

However, the fundamental issue legally relates to price fixing which stems from the undeniable monopoly the NCAA has thanks to "cooperation" by all the universities which has created a system where the "student athletes" are compensated at much lower levels than a free market would otherwise create (just look at what players could previously make overseas or the obvious gap between the billions generated and what the "student athlete" actually receives in terms of tuition). Several justices hit at the price fixing aspect but Kavanaugh highlighted the hypocrisy very well when he said “schools are conspiring with competitors to pay no salaries to the workers who are making the schools billions of dollars, on the theory that consumers want the schools to pay the workers nothing. That seems entirely circular and somewhat disturbing.”

 

[MinisterofDef#92]

Yes. I'm pretty sure I heard it on the radio once, but I think athletic departments keep up with the average annual cost of a student athlete in each sport. By the time you consider all of these expenses, I believe it's probably close to $150k-$250k per year in the high major sports.

This doesn't make the point you think it does. As an example, tell me how much of that $150-$250 k is derived from paid wages/salaries?

 

[MinisterofDef#92]

Ah, yes, but therein lies the problem and is why the NCAA had it's head handed to it.

The colleges and NCAA created this euphemism called a "student-athlete" based on an argument of retaining "amateur status"...frankly, this has been a brilliant, legal, sleight of hand strategy which obviously worked for awhile. Interesting that the "amateur status" only applies to and limits the compensation of the "student athletes"...never anyone else around the sports program (e.g., athletic department, coaches, trainers, etc...).

However, the fundamental issue legally relates to price fixing which stems from the undeniable monopoly the NCAA has thanks to "cooperation" by all the universities which has created a system where the "student athletes" are compensated at much lower levels than a free market would otherwise create (just look at what players could previously make overseas or the obvious gap between the billions generated and what the "student athlete" actually receives in terms of tuition). Several justices hit at the price fixing aspect but Kavanaugh highlighted the hypocrisy very well when he said “schools are conspiring with competitors to pay no salaries to the workers who are making the schools billions of dollars, on the theory that consumers want the schools to pay the workers nothing. That seems entirely circular and somewhat disturbing.”

Quick aside, money is a powerful drug and, we as humans, always love when we can game a system which takes me back to the early '90's when the discussion of a playoff for Div I first gained a lot of traction.

For those who were around, we saw interview after interview where these Div I university Presidents would be asked if they would support a playoff of some kind. The answer was always the same and went something like this..."these players are student-athletes and the student comes first...we couldn't possibly subject them to the rigors of playing additional games...and many of these additional games would conflict with their exam schedules...blah, blah, blah".

The irony of all this that I watched this be parroted many times without the "reporter" ever blinking an eye let alone pointing out the other 2 divisions of college football both had a playoff system which has been in effect for years...but I guess we shouldn't care about those Div II or Div III "student athletes"...lmao.

 

[Col_Cathcart]

No one has forced these athletes to pursue athletic status as D1 athletes. These kids make that personal choice. They sacrifice, but they know that beforehand. They also receive the best as far as public notoriety, education, training, tutoring, and other things. Gifted athletes receive preferential commodities that the “regular” student can’t come close to receiving.

What about the gifted intellectual students, the students who serve abroad, or the students with handicaps that give their all? Is athletics the only priority? The “me first” mentality is bothersome, at least for me. There are more important things than athletics in this world.

The gifted intellectual students are/were allowed to work part time (or full time jobs), change schools whenever they like, profit off their NIL, and still collect all the scholarship money. It’s always been that way. The athletes were the only ones who got all the extra restrictions.

I went to school back in the early 2000s and it always struck me as particularly strange that I had a better deal than e.g. Eric Ainge.

 

[zjcvols]

I’ve come in peace to state that playing a P5 team at 10pm on a Saturday in San Antonio is BS and these neutral site games this late in the year are bad for college basketball

 

[zjcvols]

The gifted intellectual students are/were allowed to work part time (or full time jobs), change schools whenever they like, profit off their NIL, and still collect all the scholarship money. It’s always been that way. The athletes were the only ones who got all the extra restrictions.

I went to school back in the early 2000s and it always struck me as particularly strange that I had a better deal than e.g. Eric Ainge.

The analogy I use is that let’s say an attractive 22 year old chemistry student who is on significant scholarships gets famous on YouTube doing science experiments in cool ways and makes a ton of money from that. No one bats an eye. Everyone is cool with that.

But when that walk on kicker did trick shots on YouTube and starting gaining a following and could monetize his channel, the NCAA stepped in and said no. And he was a walk on!

Making a profit off your name and image is protected by the federal government. The only place you could not make money off your name and image in regular America (not spies and stuff like that) was college athletics.

 

[Vol49er]

I’ve come in peace to state that playing a P5 team at 10pm on a Saturday in San Antonio is BS and these neutral site games this late in the year are bad for college basketball

Where have you been in the basketball forum Z? I always appreciated your input, which was often from a different perspective than a lot of us

 

[TheMookieMonster]

I don’t think anyone is arguing that you shouldn’t be able to profit off your NIL and your talent, which is what this argument has devolved into. It’s that in organized sports, across all levels, you’ve never been able to just move from team to team whenever you like. So, why should that be the case now? It’s far too chaotic. College athletics has basically become professional sports, and no one is seriously arguing that because the Cubs hired Craig Counsell away that Brewers players should be able to move to whatever team they want to now because “if coaches can move players should be able to move.”

 

[zjcvols]

Where have you been in the basketball forum Z? I always appreciated your input, which was often from a different perspective than a lot of us

Man, to put it bluntly, I hate college basketball. Still watch Tennessee and Michigan. But between the 3 point line, the physical play, and the awful, awful officiating…I barely watch the sport outside of March Madness.

I don’t follow enough to give meaningful comments to the board. Still read posts and threads but I delegate to the true diehards that watch the team.

(Also I like the job Barnes has been doing the last few years, for those who miss our debates)

 

[walkenvol]

I don’t think anyone is arguing that you shouldn’t be able to profit off your NIL and your talent, which is what this argument has devolved into. It’s that in organized sports, across all levels, you’ve never been able to just move from team to team whenever you like. So, why should that be the case now? It’s far too chaotic. College athletics has basically become professional sports, and no one is seriously arguing that because the Cubs hired Craig Counsell away that Brewers players should be able to move to whatever team they want to now because “if coaches can move players should be able to move.”

Players can move wherever they want unless they’re under a binding contract which I believe is what every NFL, NBA, and baseball player has.

 

[cncchris33]

Man, to put it bluntly, I hate college basketball. Still watch Tennessee and Michigan. But between the 3 point line, the physical play, and the awful, awful officiating…I barely watch the sport outside of March Madness.

I don’t follow enough to give meaningful comments to the board. Still read posts and threads but I delegate to the true diehards that watch the team.

(Also I like the job Barnes has been doing the last few years, for those who miss our debates)

You don't like the 3-point line?

 

[zjcvols]

You don't like the 3-point line?

I should clarify. I don’t like how the importance of the 3 point line from the NBA has dripped into college basketball. It’s fine with professionals. It’s hard to watch when it’s a 9-4 and a 7-6 SEC team chuck up 50 combined 3’s

 

[TheMookieMonster]

Players can move wherever they want unless they’re under a binding contract which I believe is what every NFL, NBA, and baseball player has.

And we have a pseudo-form of that with NIL right now and are probably trending to actual contracts within the next 5 years. I’m just not a fan of the lawless wasteland that college athletics has become. I don’t even have a problem with a one-time free transfer. But allowing multi-time transfers to move at will without extenuating circumstances is just bad for the sport.

 

[zjcvols]

And we have a pseudo-form of that with NIL right now and are probably trending to actual contracts within the next 5 years. I’m just not a fan of the lawless wasteland that college athletics has become. I don’t even have a problem with a one-time free transfer. But allowing multi-time transfers to move at will without extenuating circumstances is just bad for the sport.

The NCAA could have gotten this all fixed and taken care of 10-15 years ago with a fair and honest system in place. Mark Emmert not only was a crook but an absolute moron who couldn’t manage an easy bake oven shop that a 4 year old created. And now everyone is paying for it.