The Stark Truth

[GAVol]

I'd add Fred McGriff to the underrated list. He was the model of consistency from the late 80 through the 90s.

 

[hatvol96]

You have a good time at the game hat?

Not bad. Dontrelle Willis is cooked and Miguel Cabrera is fat and has the range of a beached manatee.

 

[GAVol]

Miguel Cabrera is fat and has the range of a beached manatee.

But that manatee sure can hit.

 

[hatvol96]

But that manatee sure can hit.

Yeah, but his butchery in the field and his laziness on basepaths make him a lot less valuable than he was two years ago.

 

[volfan2024]

I metioned Jayson Stark's great new book on the main board. He lists the 5 most overrated and underrated players at each position. To start the thread off, here are his starting pitchers;

Overrated:

1. Nolan Ryan
2. Don Drysdale
3. Kerry Wood
4. Dizzy Dean
5. Kevin Brown

Underrated:

1. Bob Feller
2. Juan Marichal
3. Bert Blyleven
4. Charley "Old Hoss" Radbourn
5. John Smoltz

Bob Feller.Saw him at a Nashville Sounds game once.Pretty darn neat.

 

[GAVol]

Bob Feller.Saw him at a Nashville Sounds game once.Pretty darn neat.

I met Bob Feller at Spring Training several years ago. He was really nice, although it was a little strange seeing a 75 year old man in a full baseball uniform.

 

[hatvol96]

I cut Feller slack because of his military service, but the guy's a certifiable nutjob.

 

[hatvol96]

Second Basemen:

Overrated:
1. Steve Sax.
2. Bobby Richardson.
3. Wally Backman
4. Don Zimmer.
5. Julian Javier.

Underrated:
1. Craig Biggio.
2. Bobby Grich.
3. Rogers Hornsby.
4. Jeff Kent.
5. Joe Gordon.

 

[volfan2024]

I'm starting to get a anti-Dodger bias here.If Ron Cey(3rd base) is overrated, it will confirm my theory.For the sake of my Dodger/ loving brother in law in California,I must protest.

 

[Vercingetorix]

If Rogers Hornsby is listed as underrated, it's only because modern fans don't recognize the name. The guy averaged .400 over a five-year period or something crazy. He was, however, the archetypal grumpy old man, one of the first guys to talk about how the newer players couldn't carry the older players' jocks.

 

[hatvol96]

If Rogers Hornsby is listed as underrated, it's only because modern fans don't recognize the name.

Which is exactly Stark's point.

 

[tidwell]

First Basemen:
Overrated:
1. Steve Garvey.
2. Ernie Banks(As a first baseman).
3. Cecil Fielder.
4. Tony Perez.
5. Gil Hodges.

In that Greatest Teams of All Time book I referenced earlier, they have a piece on Gil Hodges in their chapter about the 1955 Dodgers.

They put up the basic stats for Player A and Player B. Player B had fewer hits than Player A, but had more HR, slightly fewer RBI, and a higher OBP and SLG%.

Player A was Hodges and Player B was Rocky Colavito. Hodges is of course in the Hall of Fame while Colavito only received two votes in 1974 and dropped off the ballot completely after receiving only one vote in 1975.

They also ran a comparison to Boog Powell, who also had comparable numbers to Hodges despite playing his productive years in a dominant pitching era in pitcher-friendly ballparks.

 

[GAVol]

Second Basemen:

Overrated:
1. Steve Sax.
2. Bobby Richardson.
3. Wally Backman
4. Don Zimmer.
5. Julian Javier.

Who on earth is overrating Wally Backman??

 

[hatvol96]

Who on earth is overrating Wally Backman??

Anyone who mentions him as having been an actual contributor to the '86 Mets.

 

[GAVol]

Anyone who mentions him as having been an actual contributor to the '86 Mets.

I think he was in a platoon situation for that team.

Edit: Just checked - he had 387 ABs that year.

 

[hatvol96]

I think he was in a platoon situation for that team.

Edit: Just checked - he had 387 ABs that year.

Tim Tuefel got most of the ABs against lefthanders.

 

[GAVol]

Tim Tuefel got most of the ABs against lefthanders.

I was actually going to point that out, but I couldn't figure out how to spell Tuefel. :crazy:

 

[hatvol96]

I was actually going to point that out, but I couldn't figure out how to spell Tuefel. :crazy:

I'm not certain I spelled it correctly.

 

[TennNC]

Haven't read the book, but you know what I love about this discussion? It's the antithesis of hype-fed crap like, "Who's Now?"

This is the facts. It's about performance, not PR. True fans of any sport care about that much more than hype.

 

[hatvol96]

Third Basemen:

Overrated:
1. Graig Nettles.
2. Pie Traynor.
3. Bob Horner.
4. Gary Gaetti.
5. Howard Johnson.

Underrated:
1. Ron Santo.
2. Eddie Matthews.
3. Darrell Evans.
4. Ken Boyer.
5. Scott Rolen.

 

[TennNC]

Third Basemen:

Overrated:
1. Graig Nettles.
2. Pie Traynor.
3. Bob Horner.
4. Gary Gaetti.
5. Howard Johnson.

Underrated:
1. Ron Santo.
2. Eddie Matthews.
3. Darrell Evans.
4. Ken Boyer.
5. Scott Rolen.

Doh! Time to change avatars...

 

[GAVol]

Third Basemen:

Overrated:
1. Graig Nettles.
2. Pie Traynor.
3. Bob Horner.
4. Gary Gaetti.
5. Howard Johnson.

I must just not understand Stark's criteria. I can't speak to Pie Traynor, but I was a fine during everyone else's career and I don't think any of those guys were ever overhyped. They were all thought of as basically nice players and nothing else.

 

[hatvol96]

I must just not understand Stark's criteria. I can't speak to Pie Traynor, but I was a fine during everyone else's career and I don't think any of those guys were ever overhyped. They were all thought of as basically nice players and nothing else.

You've obviously never spent time around Yankee fans blathering about Nettles being as good as Brooks Robinson or Mets backers going on incessantly about HOJO being a 30/30 player.

 

[GAVol]

You've obviously never spent time around Yankee fans blathering about Nettles being as good as Brooks Robinson or Mets backers going on incessantly about HOJO being a 30/30 player.

Maybe so . . . but I have spent plenty of time around Braves fans and none of them have any delusions about Bob Horner being anything other than a decent 3rd baseman who was hurt all the time.

 

[hatvol96]

Maybe so . . . but I have spent plenty of time around Braves fans and none of them have any delusions about Bob Horner being anything other than a decent 3rd baseman who was hurt all the time.

Stark's point, on which I concur, is that Horner was really a pretty bad player.