The stupidity of these people is matched only by their fervor

#51
#51
Ihatethebuckeyes said:
Dude. I AM one of these Tea Party members that you talk about so much. I think I'm also the only public Tea Party member on here. I have also never pulled a punch with anything I have said. You can atleast give me that? I am here to tell you I have been in closed door sessiosn with Tea party leaders. I have given money to help fund some TP campaigns. I have sat next to a couple of the people who were elected and had drinks with them when their guards were down. Nobody in the Tea Party (the far right group at the moment) thinks he is a Muslim extremist. We think he is an extremist in many other aspects. His views on wealth and class and redistribution scare the hell out of most of us. This is why we dislike him so much. None of us care that he is black. None of us think he is on a secret Jihad. We do believe he is anti-Israel. WE do believe he is anti small government. WE do believe he wants to to take the upper midle class and middle class and blend them together with the lower class. We do believe he planned out a map of "change" with some of his Weather Underground buddies and is trying to implement it into law. WE believe all of that. WE even believe he is a Muslim and is keeping it quite because at the end of the day he is a politcian and feels it could harm him politically. But he is not a Muslim extremist.
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1) I don't recall mentioning the tea party in this thread. If I did, I did not mean to say that this theory of Muslim Obama comes from the Tea Party. Really, it seems mostly to come from the Christian right that is involved in politics.

2) I appreciate your drawing a distinction between Muslim and Muslim extremist. Sadly, it is evident that many do not see a distinction. Obviously, some think that Obama is "going easy" on the Muslim extremists on the theory that he is Muslim. I am not seeing that. He has us more entrenched in Afghanistan than he campaigned upon.

What you are arguing is shades of gray, and at the end of the day the fact is that there is a portion of our population which WANTS to think he is some sort of foreign infiltrator, or plotting some scheme, all to justify their hatred of him because he's black, smart, and liberal.

He is, in other words, everything they are not.
 
#52
#52
lawgator1 said:
1) I don't recall mentioning the tea party in this thread. If I did, I did not mean to say that this theory of Muslim Obama comes from the Tea Party. Really, it seems mostly to come from the Christian right that is involved in politics.

2) I appreciate your drawing a distinction between Muslim and Muslim extremist. Sadly, it is evident that many do not see a distinction. Obviously, some think that Obama is "going easy" on the Muslim extremists on the theory that he is Muslim. I am not seeing that. He has us more entrenched in Afghanistan than he campaigned upon.

What you are arguing is shades of gray, and at the end of the day the fact is that there is a portion of our population which WANTS to think he is some sort of foreign infiltrator, or plotting some scheme, all to justify their hatred of him because he's black, smart, and liberal.

He is, in other words, everything they are not.
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Always comes back to him being black doesn't it?

Isn't Steele black?
 
#53
#53
no one seems to forget how much carter was hated by conservatives. must have hated white people back in the 80s.
 
#54
#54
Ihatethebuckeyes said:
I'm a christian. You think if I was elected I would tell the public I was about to do my best to allow prayer back into schools and make abortion against the law? Or would I keep it quiet and get it down under the table? Just a question.
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I'd have little choice but to take you at your word if you said you wouldn't do those things, then if you did you could be sure you wouldn't have my vote for re-election.
 
#55
#55
Ihatethebuckeyes said:
Always comes back to him being black doesn't it?

Isn't Steele black?
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He is.

WASn't he chair of the GOP until run out by the right wing?

I've seen him on some news programs since then and he is clearly biting his tongue at the manner of his ouster. I have a feeling he is going to be Colin Powell II for you guys, except nastier to the TP.
 
#56
#56
lawgator1 said:
1) I don't recall mentioning the tea party in this thread. If I did, I did not mean to say that this theory of Muslim Obama comes from the Tea Party. Really, it seems mostly to come from the Christian right that is involved in politics.

2) I appreciate your drawing a distinction between Muslim and Muslim extremist. Sadly, it is evident that many do not see a distinction. Obviously, some think that Obama is "going easy" on the Muslim extremists on the theory that he is Muslim. I am not seeing that. He has us more entrenched in Afghanistan than he campaigned upon.

What you are arguing is shades of gray, and at the end of the day the fact is that there is a portion of our population which WANTS to think he is some sort of foreign infiltrator, or plotting some scheme, all to justify their hatred of him because he's black, smart, and liberal.

He is, in other words, everything they are not.
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Theres that race card. Well played.
 
#58
#58
utvolpj said:
that site leave out huge pieces (like Jefferson's Bible?). Many were deist (and even some suspected atheists) but were afraid of the backlash. I've read many biographies of our founding fathers and their writings reveal this. The documents they produced to found this country prove that they understood there was a line
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I just linked to a LARGE amount of quotes from the many of the founding fathers. You seem like an intelligent guy but i need a credible source/Link to any of these mentioned points, with footnotes please to change my mind?

I am not interested in an Authors opinion about what he thinks Jefferson might have meant in a statement or two when their is volumes of his faith that states otherwise.
I am only interested in the facts, not to push one faith over another.
The fact that the book of Deuteronomy was one of the largest influences in writing the Founding documents is fairly compelling evidence that most of them were Men of God.

Here is a link about Jeffersons Bible BTW,but i bet you can also provide one that tells the same story a different way.
The Jefferson Bible (The Life & Morals of Jesus of Nazareth)
 
#59
#59
MG1968 said:
I don't really care about Obama's faith, or his lack of faith. He's a little too sympathetic with Israel's enemies, but most liberals are. The religion of one man isn't going to change America. George W. wore his faith on his sleeve, but the US didn't turn into a theocracy.

It's Obama's policies, particularly economic ones, that are scary and wrong.
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How about policy that is shaped by ones Religious beliefs/idealogies, could those be frightening?
 
#60
#60
MUR73 said:
I just linked to a LARGE amount of quotes from the many of the founding fathers. You seem like an intelligent guy but i need a credible source/Link to any of these mentioned points, with footnotes please to change my mind?

I am not interested in an Authors opinion about what he thinks Jefferson might have meant in a statement or two when their is volumes of his faith that states otherwise.
I am only interested in the facts, not to push one faith over another.
The fact that the book of Deuteronomy was one of the largest influences in writing the Founding documents is fairly compelling evidence that most of them were Men of God.

Here is a link about Jeffersons Bible BTW,but i bet you can also provide one that tells the same story a different way.
The Jefferson Bible (The Life & Morals of Jesus of Nazareth)
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the books I've read are full of their own words. In fact most of the books are not interpretations since the only way for them to communicate was by letters.

There was a time in my life when I wouldn't have missed a Sunday service either but people and things change. I'm sure my quotes then would be much different now

And if they are such strong men of God then why does the most important document in this country's history make no mention of it? In fact Washington said himself the US was not a Christian nation
 
#61
#61
MUR73 said:
How about policy that is shaped by ones Religious beliefs/idealogies, could those be frightening?
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sure, it has the potential. I didn't see that happening with Bush and I don't see it happening with Obama.
 
#62
#62
milohimself said:
Straight from the horse's mouth:


Or try checking out Paine's Age of Reason.

A number of them, some professed Deists, others Christian, but not all of them were Christian men. The colonies may have been formed that way, but the nation certainly was not, rather it was founded by free-thinking men.
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OK, point taken, but here is the same horse and the same mouth.
Benjamin Franklin

SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION; DIPLOMAT; PRINTER; SCIENTIST; SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION; GOVERNOR OF PENNSYLVANIA
As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and His religion as He left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see.30

So what do you mean by free thinking men exactly? Can only a true Agnostic be a free thinking man? Could you not argue that everyone has biased in their life whether or not Religion or faith is in it.
If you do not believe in God where do you draw your moral compass From? Man? Which Man, i would like to know because everyman i know is flawed. So to suggest that MAN has the answers and the morality to bring about a utopia is just a fantasy, just check the nightly news.
Why is it soo hard for some to believe that a majority of our Founders were people of faith , that also believed in one's free will to self govern themselves and live with their consequences of their actions as long as did not harm another or supplant another's freedoms. Rights do not supersede the law.
I am not saying that ALL of our Founders were Men of Faith, But to say that most were not is not Factual. How about the 51 other Founding Fathers that are mentioning God and faith in their lives in this link? And why would it be soo terrible if they are Christians? Doesn't mean you have to be. Just don't hate me or try to rob my freedoms or my rights because you disagree with my beliefs, See the Muslims.
I realize that these mens statements are just a a soundbite of what they said/believed and does not define their lives but where is the proof to refute their statements?
WallBuilders - Issues and Articles - The Founding Fathers on Jesus, Christianity and the Bible
 
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#63
#63
lawgator1 said:
1) I don't recall mentioning the tea party in this thread. If I did, I did not mean to say that this theory of Muslim Obama comes from the Tea Party. Really, it seems mostly to come from the Christian right that is involved in politics.

2) I appreciate your drawing a distinction between Muslim and Muslim extremist. Sadly, it is evident that many do not see a distinction. Obviously, some think that Obama is "going easy" on the Muslim extremists on the theory that he is Muslim. I am not seeing that. He has us more entrenched in Afghanistan than he campaigned upon.

What you are arguing is shades of gray, and at the end of the day the fact is that there is a portion of our population which WANTS to think he is some sort of foreign infiltrator, or plotting some scheme, all to justify their hatred of him because he's black, smart, and liberal.

He is, in other words, everything they are not.
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I know you do not care , but when you play the race or intelligence card you have just lost your credibilty in the debate.
Because it says one of 2 things to me .(1) Either your argument lack substance and you have to resort to namecalling(racist, redneck, white trash, stupid, hillbilly, etc...you know the names your ilk use when your out of points), or (2)your just truly ignorant about the people with opposing views from yours. Either way, in my eyes you lose at that point. Because your descriptions are wrong. Get real or get educated about your foe.so you can bring something of substance instead of that same tired old rheteoric.
 
#64
#64
Franklin's life was way too complex and amazing to limit it to sound bites. Everyone should read his story
 
#65
#65
utvolpj said:
the books I've read are full of their own words. In fact most of the books are not interpretations since the only way for them to communicate was by letters.

There was a time in my life when I wouldn't have missed a Sunday service either but people and things change. I'm sure my quotes then would be much different now

And if they are such strong men of God then why does the most important document in this country's history make no mention of it? In fact Washington said himself the US was not a Christian nation
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utvolpj said:
Franklin's life was way too complex and amazing to limit it to sound bites. Everyone should read his story
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As is Washingtons life also. He WAS a man of Faith BTW.
 
#67
#67
milohimself said:
I'd have little choice but to take you at your word if you said you wouldn't do those things, then if you did you could be sure you wouldn't have my vote for re-election.
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Never take a leader at face value.
 
#69
#69
I played golf last week w a guy who was decent buddies w Obama in college. He said he was a normal college kid who smoked pot and liked basketball. Im not a fan, but he isn't some crazy radical Muslim.
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#71
#71
utvolpj said:
GW's was in an official gov't document and his life doesn't really compare to Franklin's.
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A surveyor as a teen,
elected to first continentel congress,
fought in French/Indian war,
led our troops in defeat and ultimately victory over the british in Revoltuionary War, Through the brutal winters of Valley Forge where many died and disease was rampant,
the first president of the United States and revered as The Father Of Our Country.
He aslo had slaves at Mt. Vernon, but in his last will & testament arranged for them to be freed.
Yep, seems pretty dull...btw i agree that Franklins life is amazing one ALSO.
 
#72
#72
MUR73 said:
I know you do not care , but when you play the race or intelligence card you have just lost your credibilty in the debate.
Because it says one of 2 things to me .(1) Either your argument lack substance and you have to resort to namecalling(racist, redneck, white trash, stupid, hillbilly, etc...you know the names your ilk use when your out of points), or (2)your just truly ignorant about the people with opposing views from yours. Either way, in my eyes you lose at that point. Because your descriptions are wrong. Get real or get educated about your foe.so you can bring something of substance instead of that same tired old rheteoric.
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You are going to have to go with the second one.

And I just don't believe you.

Now, I am not saying every single member of the TP is racist. I am not even saying that those that are would even necessarily be conscious of it, or articulate it in some traditional manner you would necessarily recognize.

As I have said before here many times, it is not that people sit around saying to each other they can't stand having that "N" word in the White House (although a tiny number probably actually do). Its that they resent someone who is not in the mold they are used to seeing, someone they view as radically different, that they don't like.
 
#74
#74
droski said:
what's your emplanation for the dislike of carter?
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or the TP's dislike of Pelosi, Reid, even George W.

LG has become quite adept at painting the TP with a broad brush, then going back to "clarify" by continuing to call the TP racist, just in a more euphemistic manner
 
#75
#75
droski said:
what's your emplanation for the dislike of carter?
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People didn't go around subtly, and sometimes not so subtly, insinuating that Carter was a secret agent for some other government, culture, or religion. No member of Congress said "You lie!" No one running for Senate spoke in terms of Second Amendment remedies to get rid of him or his party's congressional membership. No one questioned his patriotism or love of country nearly to the same degree we see with Obama.

You can cite to me till the cows come home that people picketed George Bush and called him names, but you cannot compare in any sense how he was treated and disrespected with the way that an actual organized and significantly numbered and financed outfit like the TP goes after Obama.
 
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